Horde KoS Lists - A little insight, please?

Ravenholdt
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04/21/2013 01:01 PMPosted by Ryöka
Having fun by diminishing the fun of others is bullying.


if you camp you are bullying, period.


No.

I and most other Horde being complained about in this thread camp because its the only way to get an Alliance response.

I can sit and attack an Alliance town for over an hour and get no responders, if I go camp someone in a PVP guild I can usually get a response in a few minutes and then I get to kill them too.

The camping part isn't what is fun, its actually rather boring especially when their guildies refuse to come help in which case I get to boredly murder someone a dozen times before going on to do something more fun.

Now, there ARE certain individuals that I will go out of my way to kill and will prioritize over other Alliance as kill targets, and even if their friends/guildies don't show up I'll probably stick around a bit longer just to get a few extra kicks in while they're down, but thats because I know that if the situation was reversed these people would put an ad in trade chat selling the chance to kill me to the entire server for a year if they could.
04/21/2013 01:22 PMPosted by Draxonicar
Having fun by diminishing the fun of others is bullying.


if you camp you are bullying, period.


No.



Yes, you are.

You can dress it up in as many excuses, justifications, etc. as you like, but Ryoka's right.

Does Blizzard condone it? Yes.

Does that mean it's not !@#$-holish behavior? No.

Given how many people on Alliance and Horde will run the moment 90s show up in the case of lowbies, and equal numbers in the case of 90s, it's also craven behavior.
Your sources are wrong. The stockpile is actually hardtack with a cheap chocolate coating.

Meanwhile, the chocolate chip, oatmeal raisin, and oatmeal scotchies are in Thunder Bluff.


You're just telling us that to divert attention.

To Orgrimmar!
Yes, you are.

No, I'm really not.

Please, explain to me how me, a flagged PVP geared level 90 in a pvp guild attacking and killing an Alliance flagged PVP geared level 90 in a pvp guild for the purpose of other flagged PVP geared level 90s in pvp guilds coming to fight me is bullying.

Because that's what the entire server is ABOUT.

Your definition said that bullying was "having fun by diminishing the fun of others." I do not meet this criteria. The actual act of killing individuals who I already know for a fact outgear/skill/got lucky whatever isn't fun for me. Hurrah Draxonicar, you can kill random Ravenholdt Alliance 1v1, you win first place in the server Special Olympics.

The ganking/camping part is the boring part that I take no enjoyment from and would gladly skip if I could, its the big WPVP fights with people from both sides funneling in to get a crack at one another that I enjoy. Its the big fights I'll look back on years down the line when WoW's a forgotten game that I can look back on and say "Yeah, those were some fun times."

They're fun because they're fluid and organic and not necessarily fair. Everything goes, any items or spells or tricks you've picked up in the game are all fair game, the only rule is that there are no rules and everyone's a winner because the only purpose of it is to fight. The fighting goes on until either one side gets crushed into the dust and quits or both sides get too tired and go do something else.

You can't get that in any other environment besides WPVP, it just isn't possible. Battlegrounds are fun and all and Tol Barad was indeed a good distraction, but even they are too structured for what I and many others find their primary source of enjoyment from the game.

I've been playing this game since February of '06, and in that time I and every other WPVPr in the game has never found a better way to attract lots of motivated people for a good old fashioned scrap than ganking and camping. Its the one thing you can do in this game to guaranteed get a fight going in just a few minutes of effort. If I could simply queue up for "random WPVP" and be teleported instantly to a friendly Horde player the moment they engaged in combat with one or more Alliance, that's all I would do in my time playing, but that option doesn't exist. The old 40v40 WPVP events I was responsible for recruiting for/impromptu raid leading back in cata were a wonderful time, but people got bored of them and the Alliance got tired of losing so they stopped showing up.

I try every single other possible way to get a fight started that I can. Hell, literally SECONDS before writing this post Darethy, Barba and I were killing the Alliance Honor and Conquest vendors. Nobody came because nobody Alliance side *CARES* anymore. Everything from jumping into the Alliance's own shrine to actually taking over an entire quarter of Stormwind still doesn't elicit the same just-add-water WPVP that camping does.

The funny thing is that its nowhere near this way Hordeside. When was the last time Ravenholdt's alliance made an attempt at killing Garrosh? I can't even fathom Ravenhold't shorde putting up with what the Alliance do when we raid Stormwind.

There are literally dozens of fully leveled, fully geared and fully capable of PVP players who will simply get on flying mounts and wait for us to leave rather than dismount and fight us. People will remain unflagged and follow behind us on foot to see where we go. Well known Alliance PVPrs will gladly sit comfortably unflagged in front of impotent horde that can do nothing but ransack the city and kill those actually brave enough to fight. Imagine that happening Hordeside- it wouldn't and it doesn't.

The only thing you care about is when we camp you, so that's what we do to get you to fight us.

If Alliance are tired of Horde camping them then they need to give us another option besides it to make you actually fight us. This burden is on you, not us, we're perfectly happy with the current system of "kill one dude and have five more show up for you to fight."

The only craven behavior involved is on the Alliance's part in refusing to ever fight unless the odds are 10-1 in their favor or when their hand is forced by camping.

This was a lot of words on a very simple subject, so here's a TL;DR for those who don't want to sift through it all.

TL;DR: Horde have to camp because its the only thing we can do to get Alliance to fight us.
TL;DR: Horde have to camp because its the only thing we can do to get Alliance to fight us.


While I don't condone this sentiment, I think it helps to clear up some things in this thread (assuming that Draxonicar is the one at whom the thread is directed?). I believe Draxonicar's post tends to show that there's no vendetta, per se, against specific people because a 'friend of a friend grouped with someone in another guild' thing. People are targeted because the Horde want the Alliance to fight, for the most part. We can start another thread on whether that's fair or nice, but I think it does help resolve something from this thread.

In that vein, the Sentinels might be targeted simply because they're a part of the Council and it's known that we're a large coalition of guilds and we'll respond. World PvP may happen. I am sorry though that the desire for wPvP has diminished someone's enjoyment of the game =( Hopefully we can continue to support each other and help out in these situations.

As for you wanting to get Alliance to fight, Drax, I understand that as well. I really enjoy wPvP and try to participate in it when I can! With that said, there have been other threads on the topic of Horde looking for PvP and I think that the Alliance's response has been summed up in those threads. From what I recall, they boil down to this:

The Alliance will fight when it feels like fighting.

As we've stated numerous times, the Horde don't seem to understand that for every time they sweep into Stormwind, looking for blood and glory, a couple other raid groups of Horde have already stopped by that day. The Alliance don't drop what they're doing just to satiate the Horde's desire for wPvP. Is it ideal? Not particularly, but it's the reality of the server due to a faction imbalance. Calling the Alliance craven or ascribing to us other such characteristics is simply misunderstanding the situation.

If you truly want wPvP and you enjoy it as much as you say you do, there is a solution: Come to the Alliance for a while and target the Horde. Bring your friends with you. I guarantee you'll find a lot more wPvP. =)

Oh, and we have milk and cookies.
Note my guild tag, please. I am an Indelible. I have also been a proud Sentinel. I have long ties with the guild leader of Reprisal. I have played on Ravenholdt since June 2007.

Its been a long time since I was involved in guild leadership at all. But here's what I remember, and my continuing observations.

As far as I know, all Council of the Resolute guild have strict anti-camping polices. Enforcing those regulations requires integrity from guild members. It also requires honest communication from the opposing faction.

When I was a guild officer, in the dark ages, before Looking For Group, if one of my people complained about camping I would ask them for information on the camper (level, class, race, guild affiliation). I would first advise them how to get away (outside of military operations Tiraslin was pretty close to a peacenik back then). Then I would log over to Horde side and find out if a guild officer of the guild in question was online. If so, and they were free, I would talk to them about the issue directly. If not, I would send them a note. They would discipline their people as they saw fit. Rarely did we see repeated dishonorable action.

We handled such complaints against our guild-members similarly. I personally disciplined a few members and had the misfortune, after an officer meeting on one person's repeated dishonorable conduct, of being the responsible for removing someone from the guild.

No outsiders were involved. There was no in-guild drama. There was no forum drama. And you can be sure there were no ridiculous "kill on sight" lists. Certainly not against entire guilds for having roleplay or raid agreements with other guilds.

It is my sincere belief that the proper place to resolve these types of problems is privately between the officers of guilds. If no private resolution is possible, then and only then should such a matter come to public attention.

From Virinia's original post, it is fairly clear that no one has had the courtesy to explain *exactly* what the problem is, and provide specific details about who has been involved. Without such information, no guild can deal with any potential internal issues.

p.s.
First, the server imbalance is ridiculous. According to Warcraft Census, we are now down to 1:4 alliance to horde. Horde, if you want to cry about "pathetic" Alliance responses, do something to fix that imbalance. We cannot make you happy because we would all have to do nothing EXCEPT log on and engage in world pvp. All day. Every day. I'm sorry if you feel ignored when you attack our King for the tenth time in a week.

As far as I know, all Council of the Resolute guild have strict anti-camping polices. Enforcing those regulations requires integrity from guild members. It also requires honest communication from the opposing faction.

From Virinia's original post, it is fairly clear that no one has had the courtesy to explain *exactly* what the problem is, and provide specific details about who has been involved. Without such information, no guild can deal with any potential internal issues.


This is false. Either they have no policy, the policy is so absurd it's impossible to carry out (Too much burden of proof before they'll even TALK to the member who did it), or the policy has no teeth (Nothing happens except being told "Don't do that again" and when they do it again, saying "Don't do it again" once again, and so on, so forth.). And you've been told what at least one problem is. And that problem to my knowledge hasn't been fixed.
And you've been told what at least one problem is. And that problem to my knowledge hasn't been fixed.


I've seen several references here to "you know what the problem is". The problem is, its pretty clear that the guild leaders in question do NOT know what the problem is.

Also, I do not appreciate being called a liar. I daresay I have more knowledge of what our guild policies are than you do.
04/21/2013 03:40 PMPosted by Tiraslin
And you've been told what at least one problem is. And that problem to my knowledge hasn't been fixed.


I've seen several references here to "you know what the problem is". The problem is, its pretty clear that the guild leaders in question do NOT know what the problem is.

Also, I do not appreciate being called a liar. I daresay I have more knowledge of what our guild policies are than you do.


I didn't say you're a liar did I? You may possibly be right about indelibles, but some of the guilds policies appear to have no teeth or not exist at all. And at least one problem individual has been mentioned in the thread.
When you say someone is telling falsehoods, you are calling them a liar.

You can't just say one name and expect guild leaders to take *any* action against them. A mature person woul approach the guild leader in question privately. And if the guild leader did nothing, a mature person, with dates and times and information on circumstances, would try discussing the matter with other guild leaders that you (for some reason) feel might have some influence.

What a mature person would not do is start camping the heck out of everyone who is Alliance in retribution.
The Alliance will fight when it feels like fighting.

Which just so happens to also mean "When the odds are ten to one in their favor" most of the time. Which is why the Horde go on these ridiculous KoS witch hunts in the first place.

When your faction's main PVP representative is a guild like Team Muffin you are going to have issues with asking for the other side to be civil.

Do I blame them? Not particularly, its their $15 and they can do what they want with it. If that means never fighting unless they're sure that they'll win, so be it.

Will I do my best to discourage that kind of behavior? Yes, and if that means farming a raid of team muffin in the graveyard for an hour and a half so be it.

EDIT: Re: Aerana and leveling an alliance-

In the very slow process of leveling a Worgen mage but dear god is it a slow and painful process and I've already done Worgen leveling like five times before in the first place.
When you say someone is telling falsehoods, you are calling them a liar.

You can't just say one name and expect guild leaders to take *any* action against them. A mature person woul approach the guild leader in question privately. And if the guild leader did nothing, a mature person, with dates and times and information on circumstances, would try discussing the matter with other guild leaders that you (for some reason) feel might have some influence.

What a mature person would not do is start camping the heck out of everyone who is Alliance in retribution.

I could alternately be saying 'Misinformed' or that you have too much faith in policies that arn't carried out. I don't like being called a liar either, though.

And I can expect action to be taken when the person is very well-known for camping lowbies and the likes. If there's a policy in place and it's not being enforced, how am I wrong for saying the policy has no teeth to it?
Ladies, ladies, you're both beautiful. Please take it to whispers or in-game chat in /rp or /horde so you can actually get something done instead of just catfighting passive aggressively with a delay between both sides of the conversation via forum.
EDIT: Re: Aerana and leveling an alliance-

In the very slow process of leveling a Worgen mage but dear god is it a slow and painful process and I've already done Worgen leveling like five times before in the first place.


I feel for you there, actually. I hate leveling =(

But once you do level, I think you might be surprised in what a target-rich environment the Alliance have for wPvP. Maybe that will convince you to bring friends to the Alliance so that you can give the Horde something to worry about.
feel for you there, actually. I hate leveling =(

But once you do level, I think you might be surprised in what a target-rich environment the Alliance have for wPvP. Maybe that will convince you to bring friends to the Alliance so that you can give the Horde something to worry about.


I'd rather shove a power drill in my eye rather then deal with Blizzards current Alliance story telling/lore community.

Just saying.
feel for you there, actually. I hate leveling =(

But once you do level, I think you might be surprised in what a target-rich environment the Alliance have for wPvP. Maybe that will convince you to bring friends to the Alliance so that you can give the Horde something to worry about.


I'd rather shove a power drill in my eye rather then deal with Blizzards current Alliance story telling/lore community.

Just saying.


04/21/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Aerana
what a target-rich environment the Alliance have for wPvP.

I think you misunderstood me. There's no lack of targets for me to kill as a Hordie, the issue is that those individual targets never group and actually try and fight me without heavy external prompting (I.E camping).

Me going Alliance wouldn't solve that problem at all, the Alliance would still only take fights totally in their favor.

Re: Alliance lore community-

Seriously. Have you guys seen the story forums?

I don't want to be associated with those weirdo genocide-hungry extremists advocating for Orcish concentration camps and executing every single forsaken so humans can take over Lordaeron again. And then they get mad every patch Blizzard doesn't cater to their demented wills.
feel for you there, actually. I hate leveling =(

But once you do level, I think you might be surprised in what a target-rich environment the Alliance have for wPvP. Maybe that will convince you to bring friends to the Alliance so that you can give the Horde something to worry about.


I'd rather shove a power drill in my eye rather then deal with Blizzards current Alliance story telling/lore community.

Just saying.


Or skip all of the leveling lore and just faction-transfer =D

We have a good RP community over here too...

*Offers cookies...*

Edit: I actually never go to those forums so I don't know what you're talking about.


I'd rather shove a power drill in my eye rather then deal with Blizzards current Alliance story telling/lore community.

Just saying.


Or skip all of the leveling lore and just faction-transfer =D

We have a good RP community over here too...

*Offers cookies...*

Edit: I actually never go to those forums so I don't know what you're talking about.


I'll try and find some choice quotes for you.

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