Nerf Atonement, Make Disc a Full Spec

Priest
*Buffs the hell out of priests to justify the nerf to atonement*.


Most of what I suggested isn't so much a buff as adding more synergy amongst the actual heals to promote actually using the varied spells that we have instead of spamming a single spell until Blizz is forced to step in and nerf.
Buffing other spells isn't going to make Atonement healing less effective, which is what Blizzard is trying to accomplish.
04/26/2013 12:38 AMPosted by Ascetrophis
*Buffs the hell out of priests to justify the nerf to atonement*.


Most of what I suggested isn't so much a buff as adding more synergy amongst the actual heals to promote actually using the varied spells that we have instead of spamming a single spell until Blizz is forced to step in and nerf.


No... having a passive 3x blood lust is a huge buff. Every healer in every raid would be a disc priest with what you suggested. Please, just stop.
No... having a passive 3x blood lust is a huge buff. Every healer in every raid would be a disc priest with what you suggested. Please, just stop.


To be fair, Shaman already have something similar; the difference is that theirs is limited to certain spells and is a bit smaller of an increase. So, basically, what the OP is suggesting would be too strong for us because it suffers no limitations.

To actually go through what you're suggesting, Ascetrophis:

Discipline seems to be too-heavily favoring Atonement right now. Even after the PTR nerf to 90% of dmg done Atonement just plays too great a role in the spec in my opinion.


    I agree. Blizzard isn't going about their nerf to Atonement correctly. However, I will say that I wouldn't be particularly enthused about losing damage either, which some have suggested as a different fix, if only because I run Disc/Holy and I'm not excited about sludging through dailies.


I would like to see Inner Will reduce the GCD of instant-cast spells by .5 seconds in addition to its current status. I would be okay if this required a glyph.


    I can see the potential for this, but primarily in PvP. This would also be a buff for Holy Priests; in fact, it would be a bigger buff to Holy because it relies far more heavily on instants than Discipline.


I would also like to see Borrowed Time grant 20% spell haste/reduced cast time and stack 2 times.


    As stated above, this would almost certainly need some sort of limitation. I'm willing to say that I could be wrong about that, but think about it this way:

    If your haste puts your PoH at a 2.2 second cast time, a double stack of Borrowed Time would drop that cast to 1.32. That's a pretty drastic drop. You can argue that the set up itself is the limitation; having to cast two Shields before doing that (or a single shield to drop it to a 1.76 cast time) might certainly mean having to make decisions about your casting patterns and raid's needs.

    If those two shields are consumed, though, you've just given yourself a monumental buff—especially if instants continue to not consume BT.


I would like to see Train of Thought allow Heal, Flash Heal, and Prayer of Healing to reduce the cooldown of Inner Focus instead of being restricted to Greater Heal.


    Heal and Flash Heal, maybe. Prayer of Healing would be overkill.

    IF has a 45 second cooldown. Let's say you're popping SS for incoming damage, or don't have SS but need to spam PoH. If you're in a 25M, like me, and have a decent amount of haste, you can usually squeeze 6 casts in during the 15 second SS window.

    Pop IF on your first cast. That consumes it and starts the 45 second timer. In the subsequent 5 casts, let's say at 2.2 seconds a piece, you've dropped the timer by 11 seconds naturally and 25 seconds through Train of Thought. You now have 9 seconds left on Inner Focus. That's essentially a 22 second cooldown on a very strong ability.


I would like to see Strength of Soul also include Prayer of Healing as a spell that reduces the duration of Weakened Soul.


    There's a reason it's limited to single-target casts; you actually have to be trying to lower the debuff's timer. You're asking for too much of your toolkit to be involved in these passive effects.


I think these changes would allow room to nerf Atonement to 50% of dmg done and help to make Disc feel like a full spec instead of a two-hit wonder (Spirit-Shell + Atonement). I think a glyph to reduce the dmg of your Smite, Holy Fire, and Penance by 25% but increase the healing to 100% of dmg done would be suitable.


    This is a possibility. Honestly, I can see it being possible without many of the buffs you've proposed.


On a side-note, I would like to see Glyph of Reflective Shield become baseline and a new glyph introduced that would cause PW: Shield cast on other players to also reflect 45% of dmg back to the attacker, and allow these reflected attacks to generate Evangelism stacks.


    Interesting thought, and I'm sure players who do not enjoy Atonement play would love a chance to build stacks without hitting the boss. I'm leery of it, though, for that exact same reason. We don't need a reason to cut out another part of our toolkit.

    We're also already in danger of being too utility heavy.
Elethia, that was an awesome response. I appreciate you taking the time to address each suggestion. The intent of my proposals aren't so much to increase our healing as to add more synergy between our spells. I want our spells to work together instead of Shield every 12 seconds for mana, Atonement, oh no pop Spirit Shell and spam Prayer of Healing.

In any case, now to the rebuttal...

However, I will say that I wouldn't be particularly enthused about losing damage either, which some have suggested as a different fix, if only because I run Disc/Holy and I'm not excited about sludging through dailies.


I don't think we need to lose any damage outright. I completely agree with needing to fend for yourself outside of groups. I think Atonement needs the inverse Holy Shock treatment. Holy Shock starts out dealing similar damage and healing. If you want more damage, you can glyph for it, but that damage comes at the cost of healing.

Atonement needs the inverse of that. Atonement should start out as strong damage that generates weak heals. If you want to buff the healing aspect you should have to sacrifice a good chunk of the damage with a glyph. This way you can still fend for yourself when you're out doing dailies, but when it's time to heal you aren't still Smiting your foes into the dirt. That's what your DPS allies are for.

One of my suggestions was for Borrowed Time to reduce the cast time of the next spell by 20% and stack 2 times.

To be fair, Shaman already have something similar; the difference is that theirs is limited to certain spells and is a bit smaller of an increase. So, basically, what the OP is suggesting would be too strong for us because it suffers no limitations.


First of all, Shamans use 1 GCD to reduce the next two cast times by 30%. This same effect increases the crit chance of the next two Healing Surges by 30% This is a far greater boon than what I have suggested. Second, while Shamans are limited in their reduced casts to Healing Wave and Greater Healing Wave, we don't have 9000 sources of passive healing floating around so it only makes sense that Borrowed Time not be limited to single target heals. (At no time were any exaggerations used in this paragraph. Thank you.)

To be honest though, I was thinking of Weakened Soul as the limitation. Of course you could throw Shield on players other than the tanks, but if those players aren't going to take that much damage you're trading sizeable amounts of mana for time, which seems fair if not punishing to me.

On the other hand, if the whole group IS taking damage, this mechanic would at least require a little more thought than spamming Smite, Prayer of Healing, or Shield. You would make a decision as to which 2 targets most needed damage prevented to them, cast Shield on those two, then make the decision of either healing the whole group with Prayer of Healing, saving a near-death ally with Greater Heal, or simply conserving mana with Heal and move on to the next decision of which 2 targets to Shield. You would also have the decision of whether or not that second Shield is worth casting.

Again, the goal is to promote the use of multiple spells. Numbers can be tweaked if the mechanics result in the Priest being capable of too much healing, but players would now have to play their spec instead of spamming a spell. (For the record, I had just as much issue with pre-MoP Arcane Mages spamming Arcane Blast at anything that didn't take 5 minutes or more to kill).

I do realize that Borrowed Time going from a flat 15% reduction to cast time to a 20% reduction that stacks two times is quite a leap. Part of my aiming so high here is similar to Blizz's philosophy of drastic iLvl differences between tiers. You want it to be noticably better so people WANT to use it. I want us to WANT to use Shield, but I also want it to give us a reason to WANT to cast something else. Spamming Shield is no better than spamming Smite.

Another part has to do with my opinion of our stat prioritization. We have a passive ability and a mastery that rely heavily on crit, yet Disc has what is arguably the LEAST amount of assistance when it comes to crits. Having more built-in haste would allow players who prefer crit and mastery to focus on those stats. And this also brings me to my next point.

I suggested that instead of only Greater Heal, we also have Heal, Flash Heal, and Prayer of Healing reduce the cooldown of Inner Focus via Train of Thought.

Heal and Flash Heal, maybe. Prayer of Healing would be overkill.

IF has a 45 second cooldown. Let's say you're popping SS for incoming damage, or don't have SS but need to spam PoH. If you're in a 25M, like me, and have a decent amount of haste, you can usually squeeze 6 casts in during the 15 second SS window.

Pop IF on your first cast. That consumes it and starts the 45 second timer. In the subsequent 5 casts, let's say at 2.2 seconds a piece, you've dropped the timer by 11 seconds naturally and 25 seconds through Train of Thought. You now have 9 seconds left on Inner Focus. That's essentially a 22 second cooldown on a very strong ability.


Once every 22 seconds seems fairly week to me, to be honest. Consider this. If you're running crit heavy, you run a good chance that your spell would have been a crit even without Inner Focus. You (possibly) just waste a GCD every 22 seconds.

If you're not crit-heavy, 22 seconds can seem like a lifetime when your mastery relies so heavily on crit. Once every 22 seconds seems even more absurd when you consider the crit-assistance the other healing classes/specs have.

Paladin's Holy Shock is an instant cast, mana-friendly, moderate heal that has an additional 25% chance to crit. It has a 6 second cooldown, but has been at 4 seconds with the 4 pc tier bonus.

Druid's Regrowth has an additional 60% chance to crit, which will then plant Living Seeds to heal for 30% of the initial heal when the target takes dmg again.

Shamans can cast Chain Heal and/or Riptide to increase the crit chance of the next two Healing Surge by 30%. Crits will instantly heal the most injured player within 40 yrds for 30% of that heal.

Holy Priests have Holy Word: Serenity to increase the crit chance of their direct healing spells on the target by 25% for 6 seconds. 15 second cooldown.

But more important than what these specs have is what this change would do for Disc. This would allow players who prefer haste or simply detest the randomness of crit the chance to see their mastery at work outside of Shield more often than 45 seconds without having to waste mana on an unnecessary Greater Heal if the fight does not require the spell to be cast.

I'm not saying each spell should reduce the cooldown by the same amount, but I think it only makes sense that Heal, Flash Heal, and Prayer of Healing all contribute to reducing the cooldown of Inner Focus. This would, after all, promote the use of each of those spells in the proper circumstance instead of leaving you wishing you could afford the time or mana to cast Greater Heal.

I also wanted to see Prayer of Healing decrease the duration of Weakened Soul.

There's a reason it's limited to single-target casts; you actually have to be trying to lower the debuff's timer. You're asking for too much of your toolkit to be involved in these passive effects.


I'm actually going to agree with you here. I still like the idea, but that doesn't mean it isn't excessive. Especially when we already have Divine Insight available to us.

And finally, I suggested that Glyph of Reflective Shield become baseline and we be given a new glyph that would cause Shields cast on other players to also reflect 45% of dmg to the attacker, and allow those relfected attacks to generate Evangelism stacks.

Interesting thought, and I'm sure players who do not enjoy Atonement play would love a chance to build stacks without hitting the boss. I'm leery of it, though, for that exact same reason. We don't need a reason to cut out another part of our toolkit.

We're also already in danger of being too utility heavy.


First, let me start by saying 45% might be too high. I want Atonement nerfed in part because I don't think we should be dealing as much damage while simultaneously generating solid heals. I don't want Shield to become the problem that replaced the problem. I do, however, think some damage reflection should be present if a glyph slot is to be taken. Weakened Soul might be enough of a restriction to allow for 45% but I'm not positive.

As for being a reason to cut out Atonement altogether, I don't think that would be an issue. Atonement would still deal more dmg which is really what Atonement is about. Staying productive during lulls in the battle by going on the offensive. Solace alone would likely ensure Atonement remained in tact. I think it would just come down to a preference in playstyle, which is the way it should be in my opinion.

It should be noted that if the dps is really what the player enjoys, they could choose not to take the glyph and would just not generate as much healing through Atonement, but dps would be higher. Depending on the boss and your group/raid members, this might actually be the better choice sometimes.
Buffing other spells isn't going to make Atonement healing less effective, which is what Blizzard is trying to accomplish.


Of course not. But by making Atonement healing less effective you lose a lot of what made Disc interesting. Half the mechanics in the spec are tied into Atonement. Outside of it you're just casting this heal or that heal while the rest of the healing specs have noticeable synergy amongst their heals. And that is what I would like to see with Disc once Blizz gets Atonement where they want it.
04/25/2013 02:18 AMPosted by Ascetrophis
Discipline seems to be too-heavily favoring Atonement right now. Even after the PTR nerf to 90% of dmg done Atonement just plays too great a role in the spec in my opinion.


Stop right there. I can tell you that Atonement does not play too great a role right now in my healing nor does it play a large part in healers who know what they are doing. At most Atonement healing comes out to about 18-15% of my overall healing minus gimmick fights with damage modifiers. That is fine for a triage spell and is similar to other classes and their triage spells.

The only time I ever see atonement making up the majority of healing in a raid for any disc priest is in LFR. Lets be honest, nobody cares about LFR numbers and nobody should.
All I read in this thread was "wah wah wah, the most mana efficient healing option we have as Disc should be nerfed because I'm too stupid to go to Holy"
All I read in this thread was "wah wah wah, the most mana efficient healing option we have as Disc should be nerfed because I'm too stupid to go to Holy"


Cool transmog.
Atonement just needs a slight nerf to put disc on par with other healers. That is all. Dont fix what is not broken. and if you are only a 2 button healer as disc. you are doing it all wrong.
Someone else is mistaken above me. As atonement does make up for about 75-80% of disc healing even in 25man normal/heroic. The other % happen to be pom / ss / PWS / POH. Depending on the fight mechanics one or more of those will equal out to between 50-60% of our heals simply due to the mechanics in a certain fight and how you heal the raid. If you favor haste on gear over mastery and crit your POH will be your goto raid heal. crit/mastery builds favor POM/PWS/CASCADE/DIVINE STAR for raid heals as POH's cast time is too slow for doing anything but stacking spirit shell on 2-3 groups.
leave my atonement alone pls!
Atonement needs the inverse of that. Atonement should start out as strong damage that generates weak heals. If you want to buff the healing aspect you should have to sacrifice a good chunk of the damage with a glyph. This way you can still fend for yourself when you're out doing dailies, but when it's time to heal you aren't still Smiting your foes into the dirt. That's what your DPS allies are for.


This is definitely a reasonable tradeoff.

Again, the goal is to promote the use of multiple spells. Numbers can be tweaked if the mechanics result in the Priest being capable of too much healing, but players would now have to play their spec instead of spamming a spell. (For the record, I had just as much issue with pre-MoP Arcane Mages spamming Arcane Blast at anything that didn't take 5 minutes or more to kill).


It's a good goal, but what you're proposing would need to undergo significant testing and almost certainly see nerfs (either in the bonus, or in new limitations).

For instance, have you considered the ramifications of that buff combined with PoH on constant-damage encounters like Garalon?

Once every 22 seconds seems fairly week to me, to be honest. Consider this. If you're running crit heavy, you run a good chance that your spell would have been a crit even without Inner Focus. You (possibly) just waste a GCD every 22 seconds.


Innner Focus isn't on the GCD. :)

But more important than what these specs have is what this change would do for Disc. This would allow players who prefer haste or simply detest the randomness of crit the chance to see their mastery at work outside of Shield more often than 45 seconds without having to waste mana on an unnecessary Greater Heal if the fight does not require the spell to be cast.


You're not considering why the other classes have what they have:

Holy Priests have Serenity because their "heavy" single-target healing is incredibly expensive and they have no other real cost reduction mechanic (unlike Discipline Priests, who not only have Inner Focus but receive Rapture returns).

Resto Shaman's crit affects only Surge, which is almost exclusively used in emergencies (and thus doesn't affect their primary healing effectiveness).

Resto Druids likely receive that bonus because they are otherwise not particularly well equipped to work with focused single-target healing under duress.

Holy Shock is a single spell in Holy Paladins' arsenal, and they are almost exclusively locked into tank healing.

We have a guaranteed Crit on a 22 second timer—and that has nothing to do with our Mastery. Divine Aegis is not our Mastery.

As for being a reason to cut out Atonement altogether, I don't think that would be an issue. Atonement would still deal more dmg which is really what Atonement is about.


Honestly, no, that's not at all what Atonement is really about. Atonement has, first and foremost, is an Evangelism generator. The end-goal is Archangel. Its damage is utility frosting.
04/27/2013 10:29 AMPosted by Unarmored
Someone else is mistaken above me. As atonement does make up for about 75-80% of disc healing even in 25man normal/heroic.


It really doesn't.
I can only get like 60-70% of my healing from Atonement doing absolutely nothing but DPSing in 25m.

I suck.
04/27/2013 10:29 AMPosted by Unarmored
Someone else is mistaken above me. As atonement does make up for about 75-80% of disc healing even in 25man normal/heroic.


Mine is only 20-25, I must be doing something wrong. :(

Atonement is what I enjoy best about being Discipline and with it nerfed I can go back to preferring Holy as my favorite healing spec. Sooo....sounds like a win?
I can only get like 60-70% of my healing from Atonement doing absolutely nothing but DPSing in 25m.

I suck.


Don't be silly, Nixxles. You have to count DA.

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