ICY Veins Changes Frost's Gem Recommendations

Mage
It appears this change happened a while ago, but I only noticed it today.

The site is recommending frost mages without hit problems (like me) to gem HASTE over INT.

It should also be noted that they've had all their class guides read over and revised by TOP wow players. The top player overlooking the mage guide was Batty!

www.icy-veins.com/frost-mage-wow-pve-dps-gems-enchants-professions-consumables
They should have been recommending Haste over Int since day one MOP. I don't believe there's been any point in this expansion where a point of Int was worth two points of a spec's best secondary stat.

On a related topic, thanks to a close look by Nathyiel, a bug in SimC's handling of crit suppression was uncovered that was causing Shatter casts to have 3% too high a crit chance and Critical Mass spells to have 1.5% too high a crit chance. It's been corrected, but stat priorities have not yet been rerun and gear sets haven't been reoptimized. Not sure there'll be many changes, though.
^Wow, interesting. I tried your suggestion (basically swapped out the Int and Haste weights on Mr.Robot) and though I sacrificed some spell power my Haste has shot up nicely. ~42% buffed. 8% to go for soft Haste cap. Traded 2k spell power for ~12% Haste.

Gonna have to try it in raid but definitely looks interesting. Thanks Lhivera!

Gonna have to try it in raid but definitely looks interesting. Thanks Lhivera!


I tend to just layout stats how AMR says so I will be interested in your results too.
Icy veins is known for giving out crap info, you're best bet is to do your research on these forums - elitists jerks doesn't really give much love to mages anymore and a lot of their info is outdated.
Well, I have to say on a scarecrow/test dummy I do better DPS with a full haste build as opposed to AMR's standard suggestion.

I don't raid till the weekend so I can't comment more - and I'm sure people like Lhivera have done way more calculations/tests on this than I ever will.
Icy veins is known for giving out crap info, you're best bet is to do your research on these forums - elitists jerks doesn't really give much love to mages anymore and a lot of their info is outdated.


It agrees with Lhevera's sentiments, but more direct to your point, you know the following about icy vein's guide, straight from the website:

This guide has been reviewed and approved by Blatty, one of the best Mages in the world, who raids in Method, the currently ranked #1 guild on WoWProgress. He has been contributing a lot to the community through his streams on Twitch and now works for Millenium, his new streaming platform.

So I think it's wise to trust the information.
Ive tried Haste and Int build. I seem to have much better burst with the Int build and cant seem to every catch up when playing full haste.
I clicked on Edit Weights and swapped Int and Haste values (4.41 and 1.93) like I believe Breaktheice is doing.

This had AMR suggesting I use the Windsong enchant over the Jade Spirit. Ignore enchant suggestion?
Ive tried Haste and Int build. I seem to have much better burst with the Int build and cant seem to every catch up when playing full haste.


The best simulation results come from color-matching the sockets (in almost all cases, not necessarily every case). So haste in a yellow socket, int+haste in a red socket, int+hit or hit in a blue socket.

Basically, 1 Haste is worth more than 0.5 Int, so you want to use it, but 1 Haste is worth less than 0.5 Int plus the socket color bonus, so you don't want to sacrifice the socket bonus to get additional Haste.

Again, usually. Best to run the setups you're considering through a sim to see which has the edge.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
I clicked on Edit Weights and swapped Int and Haste values (4.41 and 1.93) like I believe Breaktheice is doing.

This had AMR suggesting I use the Windsong enchant over the Jade Spirit. Ignore enchant suggestion?


I would recommend running yourself through simcraft, obtain the stat weights, and place those in AMR. Whenever I did this previously, it had me gem a lot more haste, but it never impacted my weapon enchant. I suspect you'll obtain similar results.
I clicked on Edit Weights and swapped Int and Haste values (4.41 and 1.93) like I believe Breaktheice is doing.

This had AMR suggesting I use the Windsong enchant over the Jade Spirit. Ignore enchant suggestion?

It didn't do that for me, but I did change the weights because I think I messed it up. So what I did was I reset them to the PvE standard, then just made Haste 2 x the value of Int. I think it's 8.82

And I do agree with what Lhivera suggests regarding the gems (and this is also what Icy Veins now suggests), but if you weigh Haste as 2 x your Int weight, it will almost always ignore socket bonuses and gem you to full Haste, unless the socket bonus itself is haste (see: my belt).

On a calculator, the gem ideas suggested by Lhivera do not agree his other idea of Haste = 2 x Int. I'm assuming you have to pick 1 and stick with it.

So for example on my pants: socket bonus is int, but if Mr.Robot weighs Haste as 2 x Int, then it will not suggest a int + haste gem in a red socket anymore.

Int + Haste gem = (80 x 4.41) + (160 x 8.82) + (60 x 4.41) = 2028.6
Pure Haste gem = 360 x 8.82 = 3175.2

I hope the math is right (not really good at math). And I don't think the value of the stats matter as long as Haste = 2 x Int.

Even if we value Haste at 1.5 x Int, it will still favor the pure Haste gem over the hybrid Haste + Int gem.

I just plan to run LFR on bosses I'm well informed about to see the difference with this build. Or wait till our actual raid if the 2 hour queues get too boring.
This thread is very interesting but I question it's merit. I do believe that in most cases, the statements made here about int vs secondary stats that 1 int < 2 secondary. One thing I'd like to comment on is the common notion that Frost does not scale well. If this is in fact true, why would you continue to put more into haste at the expense of Int? I agree more haste is likely good but there must be a diminishing return for Frost such that 1 int > 2 haste. Thoughts?
Actually, on second thought and some hammer smashing on my head, the above is all wrong. I was assuming everything incorrectly because I forgot to look at the basics of the gems.

I believe I understand this now, and Lhivera is actually right.

Since Lhivera values 1 Haste as 2 x Int, this actually means that ... because the haste gem is default giving a raw number twice the value of the int gem, on AMR, you would have to set your haste weight at just above half your current int weight to make haste more valuable than int. However, if you set your haste weight as 2 x the int weight, you will lose almost all your socket bonuses.

So assuming that we set haste weight as 2, we can set the int weight to 3.9 or something. This way, the gems come in close

2 x 320 (Haste Gem) = 640
3.9 x 160 (Int Gem) = 624

And to quote Lhivera

I don't believe there's been any point in this expansion where a point of Int was worth two points of a spec's best secondary stat.


That actually finally makes sense with regards to the gems he suggests as well.

And if your weights are set to something to like that, then AMR will not ignore socket bonuses and will recommend the hybrid gems that Lhivera suggested.

The only thing AMR will not do is recommend a hybrid Int + Haste gem on prismatic sockets (on your weapon, belt buckle on belt). Instead it will gem those to pure haste. You can swap these out to hybrids if you like or leave them at pure haste if you're closing in on a important haste value.

Sorry for the confusion Frygyd and others who I dragged along -_-" I really do suck at math

Edit -> So technically to make it really easy, if you agree with Lhivera (which I do) all you have to do is to load your character on AMR and then just slightly increase the default Haste weight to 2.21 (or something like that, basically any value just slightly over 2.205). This way it's just a little better than half of the int.
I don't value 1 haste as 2 int. What I said was that 1 Int is not worth more than 2 Haste, which it would have to be to make gemming int make sense. Sorry if I was confusing.

Basically, in a yellow socket, you can have:

160 Int plus no bonus
80 Int plus 160 Haste plus a bonus
320 Haste plus a bonus

In order for option 1 to make sense, option 2 must also make sense.

In order for option 2 to make sense, a point of Int has to be worth as much or more than two points of Haste. That's virtually never true, so that rules out both option 2 and option 1.

That leaves option 3 as the only one that makes sense.

Now on a red socket it's a bit more complicated.

160 Int plus bonus
80 Int plus 160 Haste plus bonus
320 Haste plus no bonus

The same reasoning as we used on the yellow socket means option 2 is better than option 1. But how do options 2 and 3 compare?

Well, at 1 haste = 0.5 int, the socket bonus is the only difference and option 2 clearly wins. The question is how much higher can the value of haste get before it outweighs the bonus? That depends entirely on what the bonus is and how much you value it at your current stat levels. But IIRC, the value very rarely gets high enough to make it worthwhile to drop the bonus.
^Yup that makes sense. Thank you =D

However, Mr Robot's default's stat weights will never suggest you to gem Haste over Int, because it weighs Int at 4.41 and Haste at 1.93 for Frost.

In order to get Mr. Robot to follow your gemming strategy (and the one over at Icy Veins) you have to manually adjust the Haste weight to force it to gem like you want it to.

Basically, if you leave Mr. Robot at default, it will gem pure Int on red sockets instead of a hybrid Int + Haste gem. If you adjust the stat weight for Haste properly, it will begin suggesting the hybrid gem instead.

It also by default will favor Int + Hit gems in blue sockets over Haste + Hit gems.

I just pushed Haste a little over half the Int value to get it to gem me properly. I do not know how valuable Haste actually is, and given Frost's current scaling dilemmas with Haste, I'd rather not push it too high.

Hopefully in time Mr. Robot will fix the default stat weights to take this into account.
In order to get Mr. Robot to follow your gemming strategy (and the one over at Icy Veins) you have to manually adjust the Haste weight to force it to gem like you want it to.

Basically, if you leave Mr. Robot at default, it will gem pure Int on red sockets instead of a hybrid Int + Haste gem. If you adjust the stat weight for Haste properly, it will begin suggesting the hybrid gem instead.


As I mentioned in a previous post, if you sim yourself with simcraft and place those scale weights into AMR, you will see a dramatic difference. Whenever I've done this, the icy veins gem recommendations come right out.

Personally, my headacke has always been the blue sockets.

Having to decide between:

1) 80 int + 160 hit + socket bonus

or

2) 160 haste + 160 hit + socket bonus

They are virtually identical, so the question becomes whether you prefer 80 int or 160 haste. I was personally afraid to sacrifice INT, but now gemming for haste.

I was also actually going to add that MMO champion recommends something different, BUT, it ALSO changed it's recommendations within the past month! Previously they said we didn't scale well enough to gem for haste, now the recommendation is the following:

"Once you have an RPPM trinket, haste starts to pull ahead of int. Gem accordingly."

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1204982-Kuni-s-Frost-Mage-PVE-Guide

In summary, it does appear that if you have no trouble reaching hit cap, and have an RRPM trinket, then it is definitely in your interest to gem for haste.
Sorry for the confusion Frygyd and others who I dragged along -_-" I really do suck at math

Edit -> So technically to make it really easy, if you agree with Lhivera (which I do) all you have to do is to load your character on AMR and then just slightly increase the default Haste weight to 2.21 (or something like that, basically any value just slightly over 2.205). This way it's just a little better than half of the int.


No need to apologize at all. I am currently a bit poor so holding off on re-gemming.

I like AMR and I would like to see it work out but even without changing weights I can likely just do the following manually to make use of the icy-veins suggestions.

Int reds to Int/Haste oranges
Int/Hit purples to Haste/Hit purples
Int/Haste oranges to Haste yellows

12 gems to replace when I have about a grand to toss around. Back to my dailies.

Note I have never used Simcraft so if anyone wants to offer a link on where it is and how to use it that would be interesting to see.

"Once you have an RPPM trinket, haste starts to pull ahead of int. Gem accordingly."

Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1204982-Kuni-s-Frost-Mage-PVE-Guide

In summary, it does appear that if you have no trouble reaching hit cap, and have an RRPM trinket, then it is definitely in your interest to gem for haste.


At the risk of sounding dumb what is an RPPM trinket?
RPPM stands for Real Proc Per Minute.

Here's a pretty detailed explanation of it:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197741003

Edit: Words are hard

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