Subterfuge

Arenas
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Right because me being a mage makes subterfuge less broken. Shutup.


lol took the bait pretty easily.


LOLIMTROLLING YOU SO HARD BRO, WAY TO TAKE THE BAIT.

What are you, 12?
Lol well excuse me for my opinion. Didn't know you were the master of mages. Take it or leave it, you asked for any advice, that's mine. You don't like it, keep dying in rogue openers. You don't see me complaining about it.


lol pwned xyril sit down son
It's incredible how many rogue complaint threads came about after the fall of the almighty KFC.

Subterfuge hasn't changed, and the only reason we do any more damage inside subterfuge now is the addition of marked for death and the increased energy pool.

But then again, we went from 1 ambush and 1 eviscerate to 2 ambushes and 2 eviscerates.

It's practically an aura mastery type of effect for rogues if you think of it that way.

Without the Shado-Pan trinket, subterfuge damage isn't nearly what it used to be.

As far as I can recall, rogues have received no direct damage buffs outside of the increase on sanguinary veins, so why is it that the amount of rogue complaints has increased at all?
04/30/2013 07:11 PMPosted by Káin
It's practically an aura mastery type of effect for rogues if you think of it that way.


If we're bent on using metaphors, Subterfuge is passive and applies EVERY single time you get a restealth, vanish or otherwise. Needless to say it's uptime is a bit higher than Aura Masteries, yeah?

04/30/2013 07:11 PMPosted by Káin
Without the Shado-Pan trinket, subterfuge damage isn't nearly what it used to be.


The damage isn't the issue. Being unpeelable (excluding hunters) with unlimited mobility during your opener is.

04/30/2013 07:11 PMPosted by Káin
It's incredible how many rogue complaint threads came about after the fall of the almighty KFC.


Not really, there must always be a king.

As far as I can recall, rogues have received no direct damage buffs outside of the increase on sanguinary veins, so why is it that the amount of rogue complaints has increased at all?


I've said this before, most rogues refuse to play their class unless it's strong or overpowered, the reason you're seeing complaints now is because people are PLAYING their rogues (although if you asked anyone who fought Khuna last season, they could've told you it was OP then).

04/30/2013 07:11 PMPosted by Káin
Subterfuge hasn't changed, and the only reason we do any more damage inside subterfuge now is the addition of marked for death and the increased energy pool.


Well that and the whole scaling thing. But that's completely disregardable ain't it?
I loved the part where the mage says

"YOU WANT ME TO BLOW A COOLDOWN ON SUBTERFUGE?!"

When like, a thread was just made about deep freeze and mages telling people to blow CD's or L2P.

It could stand a nerf, removal, whatever it takes.

But I still find it funny that here's another example of mage hypocrisy.
I'm sure there will be six posts quoting this about how its

"COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GUISE"
Well considering you can stop deep damage but you cant stop the stealthed rogue..

As said above, rooting does not work because the target they are on cant move anyway.

And you cant use a cc to get the rogue off because of sub(If you are close enough to use an aoe cc you are probably sapped).

It is WAY easier to stop mage damage.

Not that arguing with you makes a difference, I've seen your posting history.


All my "don't nerf me bro" posts on a character I hardly PVP on anymore? Yes, that was my rogue. And this is my monk!

I play every class, I PVP on quite a few. I dont get to cap every week on all of them because I dont have that much time to play.

But please, enlighten me more about how often I post that rogues don't need any sort of nerf.
Because I can tell you an actual difference.

Dying by a class is one thing. Learn and move on.
Dying by a class, and then blaming it on something else the forums say is OP, even if it has nothing to do with your death is another.

I tend to post more on my rogue because I honestly think half the time people lose to a rogue, they come to these forums, see that "rogue shuriken toss is OP" and immediately go into the thread posting ROGUES ARE SUCH BULL!@#$.

You know, kindof the same way they do with mages?

I can post on any class you want, baby. And I've never persecuted a class or downright defended a class. I find the people on these forums to be some of the most class biased people out there.

And to my post, I merely said it was funny that a mage said "And you want me to pop a cooldown for THAT" when that was the theme of a deep freeze related thread earlier.

Whether or not subterfuge needs to be nerfed, I found that funny and ironic. You can sit there and argue differences, I honestly dont care.

But its still funny to see how our views suddenly change from one page to another.
oh ok

so basically what you're saying is you should be able to sheep the rogue the second he opens preventing him from doing any damage at all

oh ok


no he's saying that openers should have counterplay that every class can utilize and not just a limited few.

SHOCKINGLY ENOUGH, his point, STRANGELY, has nothing to do with Mages.

imagine that
You might be shocked but.

Comparing an cooldownless invisibility mechanic to a 3/5 minute invulnerability cooldown might be a bit farfetched.
the issue is this: you literally CANT SEE the guy who is killing your healer or whatever. stealth is fine, but doing damage while invisible? :x

how about this: if you are aoe'd, it takes 3 seconds to break stealth. however, if you open with an offensive ability like garrote or cheap shot, then the stealth fades.

there, you have stealth protection but people can still see you in your opener. also, it gives you the opportunity to open even through rain of fire spam.
oh ok

so basically what you're saying is you should be able to sheep the rogue the second he opens preventing him from doing any damage at all

oh ok


no he's saying that openers should have counterplay that every class can utilize and not just a limited few.

SHOCKINGLY ENOUGH, his point, STRANGELY, has nothing to do with Mages.

imagine that


I can't help it. I have to do it just to russle some jimmies
But, again, in the deep freeze debate.

For classes that dont have "usable while stunned" abilties, isnt the general idea to have a teammate peel for them?

Strangely enough, I love the "break stealth on hostile action" idea to nerf subterfuge, but I STILL find the "It should have counterplay" line to be funny, considering there are many many many things in this game that dont have class wide "counterable" mechanics.

It seems that the only debate between deep and subterfuge is that one can be seen and predicted and one cannot.

I find them both to be too strong, but why is subterfuge the only one being talked about?
I mean, flat out, if i were to take the number of "KILLED IN A DEEP" versus "KILLED IN A SUBTERFUGE" threads, which would i have more of?

Not saying subterfuge is any less overpowered/deep is more overpowered, how much counterplay do these type of "100%-0%" moves have that doesnt apply to subterfuge?

Theyre all wrong, in my opinion.
this is like saying every class should have mass dispel/shattering throw because every class needs counterplay vs invulnerabilities


counterplay to invulnerabilities is attacking something else. and it has no cooldown!
Neither are correct, but Deep simply isn't a problem in my composition/bracket, nor any composition/bracket I play at currently. This doesn't mean Mage burst is acceptable, but merely less of a problem than Subterfuge due to it's amount of counters.. The burst they're capable of is disgusting, but it's incredibly easy to dispel a deep/interrupt the Mage/CC the Mage/pop a defensive/trinket if completely necessary.

The difference that every team considered to be likable in our meta game (healer/dps/dps) has a dispel. Every team SHOULD have a trinket. Most teams have interrupts. Most teams have applicable CC.

Subterfuge is countered by Flare and AoE CC. Only Hunter teams have Flare, and some teams have AoE CC. Considering there are only two counters to this mechanic in addition to the fact that it doesn't have any sort of cooldown doesn't really make it comparable to deep freeze.

IN ADDITION

The problems with Deep Freeze aren't even relevant to this thread, which pertains the problems of subterfuge. Already on that account your exposition is highly unheeded and unwarranted.
I'm complaining about not being able to peel subterfuge is just as dumb as it was last season.

I wasn't referring to you specifically with that comment.
If we're bent on using metaphors, Subterfuge is passive and applies EVERY single time you get a restealth, vanish or otherwise. Needless to say it's uptime is a bit higher than Aura Masteries, yeah?

It was a bad metaphor to use, but it was the best option I had under the circumstances. For many in the forums, changing a thought process based on a new idea helps to understand an ability, such as viewing deep freeze as a CC ability instead of the "i'm gonna kill you" death sentence most people refer to it as. Even while considered passive in this situation, its uptime isn't a 100% type of thing. If I'm remembering correctly, various aura mastery abilities range from 45 seconds to three minutes. In this instance, it's either a 2 minute cooldown, or if you manage to get a restealth off.
The damage isn't the issue. Being unpeelable (excluding hunters) with unlimited mobility during your opener is.

If the damage isn't the problem, then why is it [i]so[/] important to peel it? The opinion changes though depending on who you ask; some will say the damage is 100-0, and others will say it's nothing, that all they care about is being able to target the rogue. Plenty of posts have already been made establishing just exactly how many damaging abilities you can fit in during the time subterfuge is active. By unlimited mobility, are you referring to cloak and dagger? If that's the case, your opener generally opens up with a stun, so mobility is less of a concern. In the instance you open with a garrote, the porting becomes nice, but still counterable with an AoE ability that fears or roots (which many classes have). I don't personally believe that the 2 globals you're getting off are really THAT magnified when your target is generally stunned anyway. In terms of cheap shotting/garroting multiple people, damage is almost nonexistent, and DR's have been relatively wasted.
Not really, there must always be a king.

I know that. I'm more seeing proof that the WoW community will always come up with something to complain about.
I've said this before, most rogues refuse to play their class unless it's strong or overpowered, the reason you're seeing complaints now is because people are PLAYING their rogues (although if you asked anyone who fought Khuna last season, they could've told you it was OP then).

But if rogues were mainly the same except for CnD and MfD, what difference in their strength has caused people to reroll? Both of these additions mean practically nothing if not used correctly, and a reroll will likely not use them correctly.
Well that and the whole scaling thing. But that's completely disregardable ain't it?

I'm aware of scaling, and I never disregarded it; I would appreciate you didn't presume I left it out. All classes scale, but as their damage scales upward, so do resilience numbers and health pools. We may scale well because of our abilities being based on weapon damage, but what does that have to do with the mechanics of an ability? Rogues are a very frustrating class when played well, and especially against lesser-experienced PvPers.

Subterfuge is a powerful ability, no doubt, but it's also a direct damage loss when compared to something like shadow focus. We're trading damage for control, and we do our best damage with control, so the direct damage trade-off is less of an impact.

I think people find the most difficulty dealing with us because of our elusiveness. We're not an in-your-face type of class, so our slippery nature is probably what makes us most potent.
I know that. I'm more seeing proof that the WoW community will always come up with something to complain about.


You misunderstand the nature of people who want a more balanced game. For more balance to be achieved, complaining must always be done.

04/30/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Káin
then why is it [i]so[/] important to peel it?


Because rogue opener is about 70% (opinionated) of a rogue's game. If you can't stop that, you can't stop a lot of their power.

04/30/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Káin
If I'm remembering correctly, various aura mastery abilities range from 45 seconds to three minutes. In this instance, it's either a 2 minute cooldown, or if you manage to get a restealth off.


This would be fine if it wasn't so easy to get restealths currently.

04/30/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Káin
But if rogues were mainly the same except for CnD and MfD, what difference in their strength has caused people to reroll? Both of these additions mean practically nothing if not used correctly, and a reroll will likely not use them correctly.


A few things to touch on this.

First and foremost, perception. Rogues weren't as bad as everyone thought, but no rogue with further viability in mind would want to announce that. When people freaked out over the buffs they saw, Rogues most likely would've been considered overpowered no matter what.

Second, the nerfing of other melee. With Warriors and Ferals coming down, it's easier for someone to come up.

Third, rogue meta evolution was more delayed due to the complexity of the class. I remember having friends switch from all three level 90 talents until they ended on Shuriken Toss about half way into the season at most. Same thing with the first tier and Shadow Vitality -> Subterfuge. Subterfuge wasn't accepted by most Rogues until the end of the season.

Four, many top rogues quit their class upon hearing the news from the beta, this aided the perception.

Five, you're underestimating the power of MfD and Cloak and Dagger. They're incredibly powerful in this meta, and MfD was only recently discovered (see point three).

I would appreciate you didn't presume I left it out


But as far as your post goes, you did. I attempt to leave no truth unscathed, could you say the same?

04/30/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Káin
Subterfuge is a powerful ability, no doubt, but it's also a direct damage loss when compared to something like shadow focus.


On paper? Sure. In practice? No, people would CC you gents like they CC Holy Paladins on prime burst time.

I think people find the most difficulty dealing with us because of our elusiveness. We're not an in-your-face type of class, so our slippery nature is probably what makes us most potent.


And that will always be why you will be complained about. Your class is based on counterplay. That doesn't mean we should lose sight on what's too powerful and what just needs adjusting. You're using the RoP argument.

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