Subtlety: Find Weakness 100% - New Sims

Rogue
Post Limit:
Ah yeah, you're right. Imo eviscerate should still refresh rupture, just to get its rotation complexity down to the other specs. The real challenge and reward for me is managing shadow dance and FW's uptime.


subtlety generates enough combo points to handle upwards of 5-6 finishers with timers similar to slice and dice/rupture.

why on earth would you want to make it a braindead 111112 111112 111112 111112 111112 111112 spec?

If it were me, I'd just add a third way to get find weakness up every 30-60 seconds, pref without having to blow vanish/prep

Too strong during find weakness, too weak outside. This change works too but I feel it's a bit crude.
05/04/2013 08:23 AMPosted by Sichel
Ah yeah, you're right. Imo eviscerate should still refresh rupture, just to get its rotation complexity down to the other specs. The real challenge and reward for me is managing shadow dance and FW's uptime.


subtlety generates enough combo points to handle upwards of 5-6 finishers with timers similar to slice and dice/rupture.

why on earth would you want to make it a braindead 111112 111112 111112 111112 111112 111112 spec?

If it were me, I'd just add a third way to get find weakness up every 30-60 seconds, pref without having to blow vanish/prep

Too strong during find weakness, too weak outside. This change works too but I feel it's a bit crude.


It wouldn't be braindead, we'd have to manage 2 finishers + hemo + backstab positioning + FW uptime + manage procs for optimal shadow dancing. It would just reduce the amount of stuff you have to do a little bit so that it is more or less to our other spec's levels. Plus we can watch raid mechanics better. :)
why not take out hemo cause it's dumb and then add another finisher somehow?
05/04/2013 08:34 AMPosted by Snail


subtlety generates enough combo points to handle upwards of 5-6 finishers with timers similar to slice and dice/rupture.

why on earth would you want to make it a braindead 111112 111112 111112 111112 111112 111112 spec?

If it were me, I'd just add a third way to get find weakness up every 30-60 seconds, pref without having to blow vanish/prep

Too strong during find weakness, too weak outside. This change works too but I feel it's a bit crude.


It wouldn't be braindead, we'd have to manage 2 finishers + hemo + backstab positioning + FW uptime + manage procs for optimal shadow dancing. It would just reduce the amount of stuff you have to do a little bit so that it is more or less to our other spec's levels. Plus we can watch raid mechanics better. :)


I think the problem with your suggestion is lack of variety. Combat and assination are some of the easiest specs to play in the game. Sub having a bit higher difficulty gives rogues a bit of variety.

I like the idea of adding another way to get find weakness up. What if casting tricks of the trade gave you find weakness for 6 seconds :D
05/04/2013 07:27 AMPosted by Weavr
I haven't done any hard core AoE testing, but my experience tells me sub does better AoE damage, and assassination can only do well when the targets have a long life span.

Doing the math on aoe burst between sub and assassination because I'm curious.

Assuming 8 targets, 8 second window, no energy or cps at start of burst. Assume 23K agi (46K AP) for assassination and 29.9K agi (49.8K AP) for sub. Baseline energy regen of 11 energy/second. The assassination rogue has 30% crit, sub has 37%. Both rogues have 7000 mastery so assassination has a 69% increase to poison damage, sub has a 58% increase to finisher damage.

Over this period the sub rogue has 120 energy and the assassination rogue has 118 energy on average. So over this period the assassination rogue does 3x fok and the sub rogue does fok, ct, fok.

All of the numbers below account for crits.
For assassination 3 foks deal 8820 per fok per target.

For sub the first fok deals 10085 damage and the second deals 12102 damage.
For sub the CT (assume 2 cps from HaT+1 from FoK for 3 cps) deals 9115 damage per target. This CT additionally gets 1 tick (CT goes out at 5 seconds so first tick is at 7 seconds) at 3646 damage per target.

Now lets add poisons.
The assassination rogue is expected to have 4 poison procs per fok, the first foks dp will have 3 ticks, the 2nd will have 1 ticks and the 3rd will not tick. Each tick will do 54632 damage per tick per target.

For sub each fok/ct will have 2.8 procs with the same number of ticks. Total damage per tick is 37220 damage.

Now things get a bit tricky because we have to handle which targets now have poisons on them. This is simplification but lets say the assassination rogue hits 4 targets with no poison on fok 1, 2 targets w/ poison and 2 targets w/o poison on fok 2 and 3 targets with poison and 1 target w/o on fok 3. The IP damage for assassination is 29990 damage per hit.

For sub lets assume the first fok hits 2.8 targets without poison, .98 targets with poison, 1.82 without on the 2nd fok and 1.617 with poison, 1.183 without on the 3rd fok. These IP procs do 19070 damage per hit.

Now lets add things up.

Assassination: 8*3*8820+4*3*54632+2*1*2*54632+5*29990 = 1,235,742
Sub: 8*(10085+9115+12102+3646)+2.8*3*37220+1.82*1*37220+2.597*19070 = 709,497

Obviously there are a number of assumptions here that could be shifted around to get different results but basically I don't see that sub will do substantially more damage on burst aoe then assassination. Its also possible there are math errors in here, let me know if you see any.

EDIT: Silly error, confused ticks and seconds. Corrected but the basic conclusion doesn't change.
why not take out hemo cause it's dumb and then add another finisher somehow?


Good idea but what kind of finisher would it be?

We already have a:

- Bleed finisher
- Flat damage finisher
- CC finisher
- Stat boosting finisher

Something unique would be pretty cool, something like:

- Places a debuff on the target that has a chance to generate 1 combo point when you deal damage with a melee attack

Or maybe something else that is unique, what are some of your ideas?
- Places a debuff on the target that has a chance to generate 1 combo point when you deal damage with a melee attack


if this were implemented, you could use it to replace honor among theives, though that's not really necessary, it might work.

whatever finisher is added would have to be sub only, and preferably wouldn't be just a simple maintenance finisher. Rupture ticks for nothing, and is only used for sanguinary vein, another mechanic that isn't incredibly well liked as is.

How's this sound?

- Sanguinary vein dropped to 0-10%, and all the extra damage is placed onto rupture.
- Hemorrhage gets removed. backstab renamed and given frontal usage with a bonus to damage from behind. maybe name it piercing strike or something to do with hitting a weak point
- Every eviscerate you use gives you a stacking buff that allows for a new finisher at 3-7 stacks+

New finisher idea:
Debilitating blow
30 energy
The rogue strikes at the enemy's weakpoint, decreasing their damage dealt by 10% and increasing the damage they receive from the rogue's attacks by 15% for 10 seconds

anyway, you get the idea, and I can try and come up with more potential finishers if you're interested.

The idea is to make sub a spec which tries to use as many finishers as possible, by giving it a buff for using a number of them and making the buff literally impossible to keep up 100% of the time, especially with all the other stuff to maintain. Instead, you'd try to ideally line up the powerful buff finisher with shadow dance.
A non maintenancey finisher could also be something like:

Shadow Dash
Step into the shadows for ((Combo points used / 2) + 0.5) seconds. Allows the use of moves that normally require stealth.
25 second cooldown.

Basically, it would give you 3 seconds of stealth (essentially an in combat subterfuge) with 5 combo points and allow you to weave in more Find Weakness uptime without it being up 100% of the time due to the cooldown.

Maybe even have backstab lower the cooldown by 5 seconds on each hit during < 20% hp as an execute ability.

Do note that it would work like Shadow Dance and not like vanish so that it's not actually stealth. This will keep it from being overpowered in PvP.
A non maintenancey finisher could also be something like:

Shadow Dash
Step into the shadows for ((Combo points used / 2) + 0.5) seconds. Allows the use of moves that normally require stealth.
25 second cooldown.

Basically, it would give you 3 seconds of stealth (essentially an in combat subterfuge) with 5 combo points and allow you to weave in more Find Weakness uptime without it being up 100% of the time due to the cooldown.

Maybe even have backstab lower the cooldown by 5 seconds on each hit during < 20% hp as an execute ability.

Do note that it would work like Shadow Dance and not like vanish so that it's not actually stealth. This will keep it from being overpowered in PvP.


yo, I could get behind this. much better than my idea.
If it were me, I'd just add a third way to get find weakness up every 30-60 seconds

Reintroducing ghostly strike on a 20sec cd would be a nice start. instead of applying mini evasion it can apply find weakness similar to colossus smash. and maybe remove the need to use our vanish as a way to apply FW and save it for when you really need it.
Reintroducing ghostly strike on a 20sec cd would be a nice start. instead of applying mini evasion it can apply find weakness similar to colossus smash. and maybe remove the need to use our vanish as a way to apply FW and save it for when you really need it.


I actually like it better as a finisher, even with a cd, because subtlety can handle more finishers. taking out hemorrhage make the spec less maintenance-y, and adding in this finisher will add some decent fun to the spec as well as allowing backstab more often during questing and whatnot. The stealth part is great too because it adds to the identity of the spec, ie: subtle.

I had a similar idea in the past, but making it a finisher isn't a bad idea at all.
05/02/2013 08:52 PMPosted by Fierydemise
T15 normal profiles also posted. This tells me that sub is actually ahead and that the meta gem is carrying assassination. Once this tier is over (or whenever we stop using the meta), sub will be the strongest.
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I don't buy that conclusion at all. Look at these these heroic jinrohk logs from each sub, combat and assassination.
Assassination: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-tvrzz4f0o615ta34/details/26/?s=391&e=634
6.8%
Sub: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-58ms6rcuyk5xkkxe/details/1/?s=3528&e=3888
6.4%
Combat: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-aoi769q65rnleg1j/details/10/?s=591&e=813
7.1%

Based on this its hard to say assassination gains substantially more from the meta gem then other specs.

Not so sure that this is the best comparison to make.

So long as you're auto-attacking the boss and using everything that can affect the meta's proc damage (i.e. potions, trinkets are proc'ing, applicable % damage increases, etc.), it's going to do a set amount of "absolute" DPS for your AP and haste levels which is independent of how much damage you're doing with the rest of your abilities (or, rather, how often you use the rest of your abilities, because RPPM), but the "relative" DPS it does (i.e. the % of your overall breakdown) is not independent of how often you use the rest of your abilities (use abilities more often -> % of damage from abilities goes up / % of damage from meta gem goes down)

Are those rogues using their abilities as often as the appropriate SimC profile uses them? Is Jin'rohk a neutral fight for this comparison? What are their gear levels (specifically their haste and AP)? The fight lengths are also dramatically different (=> inconsistent heroism uptime => imbalanced RPPM proc rates) Did they have equivalent luck with their trinket procs? (etc.)

As far as SimC goes, it assumes that the meta uses the same RPPM system as trinkets/weapon enchants (and it has a proven track record of modeling those effects + the caster meta uptime). It assumes that the last batch of coefficients we were provided during the 5.2 PTR were accurate (1.789 for Assassination, 1.136 for Combat, 1.114 for Subtlety). It also assumes that the formula we were given for the capacitive primal diamond's proc was accurate (280 + 75% AP) and that the proc is affected by the spell damage vulnerability raid debuff (e.g. master poisoner).

Additionally, it makes the following assumptions about how each spec's various damage modifiers affect the proc, based on in-game testing:

Assassination
Assassin's Resolve - Yes
Vendetta - No

Combat
Bandit's Guile - Yes
Killing Spree - Yes

Subtlety
Master of Subtlety - Yes
Sanguinary Vein - No

(might be forgetting something in there, since this is off the top of my head and I don't play a rogue)

yo, I could get behind this. much better than my idea.


Hehe, thanks. :)

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