We asked for High Elves, we got High Elves

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They do have a choice to join the Blood Elves, and they always did.
They have a grudge against the blood elves ... are only of the alliance only for a grudge? haha.
Except that the reason they have a grudge against the Blood Elves is that they stayed with the Alliance and the Blood Elves kicked them out for it.
Except that the reason they have a grudge against the Blood Elves is that they stayed with the Alliance and the Blood Elves kicked them out for it.


That's not true. The HEs were exiled for disagreeing with the methods the BEs were using to absorb magic, not because they wanted to remain in the Alliance.
05/13/2013 07:35 AMPosted by Gandred
Except that the reason they have a grudge against the Blood Elves is that they stayed with the Alliance and the Blood Elves kicked them out for it.


That's not true. The HEs were exiled for disagreeing with the methods the BEs were using to absorb magic, not because they wanted to remain in the Alliance.


Retracted then. I still stand by my bit about the Silver Covenant, though. None of that provides a reasoning for the Silver Covenant to hold a sharp dislike for the Sunreavers unless they were also for the Alliance from the get-go. If they're living in Dalaran, they're not exactly homeless.
I think High Elves were exiled before the Blood Elf starting zone, when Silvermoon was still on a "neutral" situation. So, yea, I don't think it had anything to do with Alliance.

Still, it was only a matter of time. If High Elves weren't exiled there would be conflict for which faction they all should go.
05/13/2013 07:08 AMPosted by Serendia
They remain the same. Only are of the Alliance because they haven't other choice. If they could leave, they would.


Well, not according to 99.99% of High Elf dialogue ever written. You keep on being wrong, sir.

They and few. The high elves are not just them.


You're right, but guess what? An extraordinary majority of the remaining High Elves choose, willingly, to follow Vereesa Windrunner. As well, Alleria Windrunner is praised and exalted by both High Elves and Humans alike.

I'll make you a deal. You find me any High Elf that states, in-game or otherwise, they'd join the Blood Elves and, subsequently, the Horde and for every one you find I'll provide 10 examples of High Elves which are outspoken for the Alliance.

You're going to have a hard time with this, I'd imagine, because there are literally examples of even married couples choosing different sides of this (husband becomes BE, wife remains HE).

The culture is the same, only an action like absorb magic of living creatures like serpents and Naaru mana, I do not see huge cultural difference,


That's a personally intellectual fault on your end, more than any statement of fact. You've proved time and again in this thread you have absolutely no grasp on what culture entails.

05/13/2013 08:06 AMPosted by Osiria
I think High Elves were exiled before the Blood Elf starting zone, when Silvermoon was still on a "neutral" situation. So, yea, I don't think it had anything to do with Alliance.


I feel like it's a safe bet to assume the HE's were refusing the siphon from the creatures that were composed purely of arcane, and were therefore removed as a variable, prior to the BE's ever learning how to safely consume fel magic from demons. I owe this conclusion to two things:

1. There aren't any HE's in the BE's starting zone.

2. There are fel-infused crystals in the BE's starting zone, meant to be used as a constant supply of magic for the population. If the HE's weren't exiled until sometime during the BE's starting zone they ought to have had green eyes -- the fact that they retain their signature blue eyes suggests they were exiled prior to Rommath returning from Outland.

See, here we're at an impasse. I want them to make Night elves more savage and brutal because I want all the people who want to play pretty, cutesy elves to go Horde or quit altogether.


I do agree with you in making the night elves more savage, though. I do get annoyed when players throw a fit when they have to play a side where they won't want to play in order to play a blood elf.

See, here we're at an impasse. I want them to make Night elves more savage and brutal because I want all the people who want to play pretty, cutesy elves to go Horde or quit altogether.


I do agree with you in making the night elves more savage, though. I do get annoyed when players throw a fit when they have to play a side where they won't want to play in order to play a blood elf.


I've been playing Horde longer than I have Alliance. I don't particularly like playing Belves when I play Horde, though I've tried, because frankly it makes my head hurt to understand why they are part of the Horde. Same reason I don't play Night Elves - I have so much of a hard time really believing that the Night Elves are totes cool with being part of such a mage-happy faction.

See, here we're at an impasse. I want them to make Night elves more savage and brutal because I want all the people who want to play pretty, cutesy elves to go Horde or quit altogether.


I do agree with you in making the night elves more savage, though. I do get annoyed when players throw a fit when they have to play a side where they won't want to play in order to play a blood elf.


I don't get why anyone would ever want to play as a Blood Elf. Now a High Elf, that I would play.

They are different. I don't wan't to play a Blood Elf because they are part of the Horde. That would mean doing Horde quests, playing battlegrounds as horde, doing the Horde version of dungeons. The Blood Elves left the Alliance and joined the Horde.

I want to play a High Elf because they are loyal members of the Alliance. Playing as a Blood Elf would defeat the point.
Blood Elves can be extremely interesting from a character design, storytelling, and psychological standpoint.
Blood Elves can be extremely interesting from a character design, storytelling, and psychological standpoint.


I tend to agree with this.

It seems to me that the dynamic between elves, including Night Elves, is made better when all involved are as distinctly behaved as they are motivated. It should be the eventual goal of the writers to be able to elicit very particular thematic imaginings from statements like, "you act like such a Blood Elf". The diversity can still exist, mind you, but if specific things don't come to mind it means the writers aren't doing their job well enough.

As well, it seems like a lot of people dislike HE's solely because they're similar in some ways to BE's. This is seen especially when talking about the notion of playable HE's. I say if loosing the pretty race, along with their signature styles, is what concerns some of the Horde players then by all means mix it up for the HE's if they're ever to be playable. At this point, I'd probably still play a couple HE's even if they looked like this:

http://sleepless-katith.deviantart.com/art/Fat-Elven-Warrior-v-01-77252912
If the Horde are really worried about losing their "pretty race," they should remember that they didn't always have that "pretty race."

And blood elves were never much prettier than night elves anyway.
05/14/2013 01:51 AMPosted by Gibbons
If the Horde are really worried about losing their "pretty race," they should remember that they didn't always have that "pretty race."


It's mildly humorous when we consider that the expression "pretty race" is often used in an almost pejorative manner, by many players on the Horde, in attempt to equate the entirety of the Alliance with delicacy and ineptitude... yet, when it suits their purpose it is perfectly acceptable, nay an absolute necessity, that they keep the prettiest of the "pretty races".

This more-or-less describes this particular line of reasoning: http://i.qkme.me/3r8sof.jpg

And blood elves were never much prettier than night elves anyway.


Agreed.
If the Horde are really worried about losing their "pretty race," they should remember that they didn't always have that "pretty race."

And blood elves were never much prettier than night elves anyway.


And I'm a classic player, believe me, I remember. In fact, I initially didn't like Blood Elves because I actually don't typically like fantasy elves. The only reason I made one was I wanted to play a Paladin.

But Blood Elves aren't pictures of perfection. They have an addiction (through no fault of their own), they have faced several attempts from others trying to wipe them out.

They have survived a zombie apocalypse (any writer considering playing or writing a Belf should know how their Belf survived, what they had to do to survive. Did they hide in a tree or a pile of corpses? Did they stay and fight until they could no longer and flee?).

What kind of trauma have they experienced? How do they cope? Did the trauma trigger a mental illness? PTSD? Depression? Anxiety? Schizophrenia? Addiction beyond the default, alcohol/drugs to take the edge off?

From what I understand their society is more hedonistic than when they were High Elves. They are still a bit prissy and rigid, but not as much.

05/13/2013 11:05 PMPosted by Fyorsing
As well, it seems like a lot of people dislike HE's solely because they're similar in some ways to BE's. This is seen especially when talking about the notion of playable HE's.


I don't dislike the idea of High Elves, but I don't find them nearly as interesting. I've used them in terrible fan fiction and thought of RPing one (except for that's trendy atm, thanks Silver Covenant) but I haven't at this point.

The High Elves in places like Stormwind weren't there for the fall, they haven't been through the same trauma as the Blood Elves. They're likely more rigid and snooty than the Belves.

I feel like the Silver Covenant was just made up as a faction within the Kirin Tor during Wrath so each faction could have their own little subfaction in town. I think they're an oddity.

Were they at Dalaran when Arthas attacked it during WC3? Were they there when Gary and his army tried to execute the Belves for letting the Naga help them defend Dalaran so they wouldn't be exterminated? Were they imprisoned as well? If not, how did Gary's men differentiate Kael'thas' pointy eared people from the pointy eared people of Dalaran? Gary was pretty racist against all races but humans. Would he have commanded his troops to differentiate?

If Dalaran was Alliance during that time, why did the elves of the Silver Covenant overlook the extermination attempt? (Especially if they too were imprisoned for execution for being the same race? How did they escape if they didn't go with Kael'thas?)

I know if I were a Silver Covenant member I wouldn't willingly be on the front lines. Especially for someone like a new leader that in her reign is already dragging me into war, crazed with hate over race and faction. Sure she had justification, but so did Garithos.

Anyhow, from a development standpoint, I'm fairly sure part of why the Blood Elves were given to the Horde originally was to correct the gross population imbalance. Adding virtually identical models to the Alliance would defeat the purpose of Blizzard trying to balance the population.

Lots of people made Belf things because they were pretty, but others made them for other reasons (like wanting to play a Paladin) and found them to not be the boring, rigid, extremely shallow typical fantasy elves.

I keep seeing Alliance players lawyering over this and that in favor of High Elves. I see suggestions to give the Horde other, uninteresting, unappealing races that would not help with the new gross imbalance created in game by letting the Alliance have High Elves.

Do you really think Ogres would correct the population imbalance created by Alliance getting yet another type of elf? (If so, can I have what you're smoking? My fibro is going HAM and I have a raid tonight.)
You know what'd render population imbalance moot?

Stopping the faction war.

At the very least, I still say that characters ought to be able to take a questline to defect. That would solve so many problems.
Yes, and no.

If population balance only affected PVP, sure. (PVP (or at least the honor system) is a stupid minigame added well after launch and has been poorly executed from the get-go.)

But adequate population also ties into economy, into having a large enough pool of talent to choose from that you can field PVE things.

While a defect quest line would be good, Blizzard would never do it for the same reason they seem to not be merging dead servers or offering free transfers anymore: Money.
Yes, and no.

If population balance only affected PVP, sure. (PVP (or at least the honor system) is a stupid minigame added well after launch and has been poorly executed from the get-go.)

But adequate population also ties into economy, into having a large enough pool of talent to choose from that you can field PVE things.

While a defect quest line would be good, Blizzard would never do it for the same reason they seem to not be merging dead servers or offering free transfers anymore: Money.

I think there'd be plenty who defected to each side. I know some who would probably defect to the Horde, and quite honestly, I'd happily defect to the Alliance.

A solution to the PvE imbalance that would be nice is cross faction dungeons and raids, should we so choose. :p
Yes, and no.

If population balance only affected PVP, sure. (PVP (or at least the honor system) is a stupid minigame added well after launch and has been poorly executed from the get-go.)

But adequate population also ties into economy, into having a large enough pool of talent to choose from that you can field PVE things.


No faction war means no reason for the two sides to have separate AHs and guilds.

I still think it is a complete fluke that a PvE-based game has run two separate factions and done well with them. You need three or more, or none.
But Blood Elves aren't pictures of perfection. They have an addiction (through no fault of their own), they have faced several attempts from others trying to wipe them out.

They have survived a zombie apocalypse (any writer considering playing or writing a Belf should know how their Belf survived, what they had to do to survive. Did they hide in a tree or a pile of corpses? Did they stay and fight until they could no longer and flee?).

What kind of trauma have they experienced? How do they cope? Did the trauma trigger a mental illness? PTSD? Depression? Anxiety? Schizophrenia? Addiction beyond the default, alcohol/drugs to take the edge off?

From what I understand their society is more hedonistic than when they were High Elves. They are still a bit prissy and rigid, but not as much.


It's a combination of all these things, as well as other peculiarities, which help to maintain the BE's distinct relevance to world events (and I suppose off-world events, too!). I can fully understand why players wouldn't want to see such a highly unique group made more universal, and I tend to agree with them.

But with that said, it's still entirely possible that HE's could be made quite different from BE's. It just requires that Blizzard has a very intimate understanding of the basic environment that each one has existed in, and thus been shaped by.

Were they at Dalaran when Arthas attacked it during WC3? Were they there when Gary and his army tried to execute the Belves for letting the Naga help them defend Dalaran so they wouldn't be exterminated? Were they imprisoned as well? If not, how did Gary's men differentiate Kael'thas' pointy eared people from the pointy eared people of Dalaran? Gary was pretty racist against all races but humans. Would he have commanded his troops to differentiate?


There was a big discussion about this somewhere in the Story Forums, essentially led nowhere since we virtually have no substantive text from that period. This coupled with the fact that the word "elf", as a standalone, is used for almost all references in WCIII it's impossible to tell if he distinguished.

If Dalaran was Alliance during that time, why did the elves of the Silver Covenant overlook the extermination attempt? (Especially if they too were imprisoned for execution for being the same race? How did they escape if they didn't go with Kael'thas?)


If they were imprisoned, they'd hate the Alliance at the moment. Seeing as they don't there are really only 3 possible options:

1. They weren't present in Dalaran and weren't imprisoned. This would suggest that HE's migrated to Dalaran after being exiled from Quel'thalas by the BE's.

2. They were present in Dalaran and weren't imprisoned. This would suggest that their was a distinction between HE's and BE's even then, which would provide a little more justification for the actions taken by Othmar Garithos.

3. They were present in Dalaran and were imprisoned. This would suggest that the Alliance simply forgave those who testified that they hadn't partaken in any questionable practices (i.e. self-proclaimed High Elves) and allowed them to re-join the Alliance.

Anyhow, from a development standpoint, I'm fairly sure part of why the Blood Elves were given to the Horde originally was to correct the gross population imbalance. Adding virtually identical models to the Alliance would defeat the purpose of Blizzard trying to balance the population.


I'm not sure if I agree as much today as I might have in the past, if only because the Horde has been given some amazing uplifts to make it more appealing overall -- but assuming you were correct and that it would upset things, there's no reason why the model cannot be absolutely butchered from its current iteration.

If we're supposing that the Alliance, not unlike the Horde, is largely an organization built around pragmatism then it stands to reason that we'd be looking as much for agreeable traits, like loyalty and integrity, as we were for any economic and/or military prowess (including magical aptitude). Essentially, you could have all of the High Elves fall into a magic pond which turns them gray, makes an ear fall off and/or has them sprout a third non-functioning arm and you'd still find a playerbase for them (however small) by virtue of their attitudes.

A great example of this can be seen in the Draenei, with their atrocious forehead-disk hairstyles.

Do you really think Ogres would correct the population imbalance created by Alliance getting yet another type of elf? (If so, can I have what you're smoking? My fibro is going HAM and I have a raid tonight.)


I mean, this all depends on how they're implemented really.

It's fairly likely in any event that if they added playable Ogres they'd provide some kind of lore justification for them having above-average intelligence which would better facilitate their involvement with the Horde (and especially, Orcs). It's hard to say whether they'd be more prone to naturalism (i.e. Nagrand) or arcanism (i.e. Tanaris), but either way makes for interesting story depending on who their neighbors are.

As for the High Elves, iIf it were up to me they'd re-fashion their model to resemble something between the Blood Elves and Night Elves, perhaps due to some overzealous Highborne trying to revert the High Elves to their "former glory" and failing hard, with some additional damage being done to them in the process.
Do not know why they argue so much about "why the high elves must be playable"

Blizzard doesn't want them to be playable, obviously. Don'tput them in BC, not put them in tlk, don't put them in cata, not put them in mop, will not ever. Content with them as npc. In my opinion I don't like all those high elves.

So do not delusions, if they want to play "something like" make yourselves blood elves have nothing different. With the sunwell the blood elves, don't absorb magic of living creatures.

I sincerely hope never again to put new races, and if they do, it would be better to make up a story, and put in the Alliance playable vyrkuls . To have more cultural diversity and more "Brutals" ideals
As for the High Elves, iIf it were up to me they'd re-fashion their model to resemble something between the Blood Elves and Night Elves, perhaps due to some overzealous Highborne trying to revert the High Elves to their "former glory" and failing hard, with some additional damage being done to them in the process.
What a great idea!, It would be better if the highborne get it right, and high elves are totally transformed in to night elves, and live in Kalimdor!.

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