Why the base PvP Resil is a good change.

Arenas
Hello, it's me again with another topic. To preface, I've called T2 overpowered, disc priest buffs, rogue buffs (then nerfs), also other little things like shadow being OP, all before they were topics on the arena forums. Nearly every time I was ignored or flamed, but I am always right about these things.

It's quite easy to complain and scapegoat changes, but right now you have to look at the greater picture.

Yes in some cases PvE gear will be better but skill will still be the better factor. There was a tweet from ghostcrawler about nerfing PVE set bonuses if they were too good in instanced PvP and the proc rate on PvE trinkets has been increased.

While this is true, we have to realize that the number of casuals who do not participate in PvP compared to the number of PvPers is around 15-1. Which is to say, less people are playing PvP due to gear requirements.

With this change expect there to be far more PvPers (and not just rogues, disc priests or equally ret/dk/warr... who are the most popular classes to pvp with because of their ease at low levels and PvP arena movies).

But all classes... if you are 1500 now, expect to be 1800 with the increased number of participation in PvP. If you are 2k, exopect to be 2300. Maybe even higher depending on the turn out.

And so forth. This includes both arenas and RBGs. So yeah, the PvE gear will suck at times, but overall it'll create a more competitive environment due to increased numbers. It really doesn't matter about your opinion if believe PvP to be fun or not. Because that's your opinion, others will enjoy it who have never tried it before.

Now if they could please fix the honor grind for PvP gear :D
Nearly every time I was ignored or flamed, but I am always right about these things.


Oh please, you're being modest here, tell me more. <3

05/13/2013 07:25 PMPosted by Truewan
Yes in some cases PvE gear will be better but skill will still be the better factor. There was a tweet from ghostcrawler about nerfing PVE set bonuses if they were too good in instanced PvP and the proc rate on PvE trinkets has been increased.


Important point, GC and Holinka have stated they'll dedicate time into destroying any BiS PvE if it exists. Whether or not they'll end up filling their deal of the bargain is debatable, but there aren't any bonuses that are capable of awarding a loss by themselves, as far as I know/dictate via opinion.

With this change expect there to be far more PvPers (and not just rogues, disc priests or equally ret/dk/warr... who are the most popular classes to pvp with because of their ease at low levels and PvP arena movies).

But all classes... if you are 1500 now, expect to be 1800 with the increased number of participation in PvP. If you are 2k, exopect to be 2300. Maybe even higher depending on the turn out.


We can hope. I haven't seen enough evidence to dictate there will be a large change.

Now if they could please fix the honor grind for PvP gear :D


It'll be a few more seasons before they budge on that. Not many people think it's a problem, myself included. Then again, I don't have an abundance of alts, so. Yeah.
Afraid that at first changes will seem positive ... then slowly the graph will show participation falling again.

I think arenas as an entity itself is simply not that popular and really never will be. Look at LFR and / or LFG, yea they have issues and goofy players but think of what it does. I can log in, queue up and in a few minutes I'm off. We race through the dungeon and I collect my rewards or we crash and burn. Whatever happens I don't have the weight of the last failure following me forever. I forget about it queue up and try again.

Arena is SOO competitive that almost the majority of players, playing a video game mind you are just not that competitive. Each loss in arena stings, each point drop from your rating hurts, Everytime you die it's upsetting, Soooo close to getting a ranking title and ugh unfortunate circumstance involving unfair play leaves you behind. You have a win / loss record reminding you CONSTANTLY of how you did. We all envision ourselves being the hero expert and well the most of us (myself included) suck so guess where we aren't going to go?

So that leaves strictly random BGs. This is the place where we who suck found a bit of solace. Can queue up in full blown PvE gear, trinkets, legendary weapon and go to town. I lose? Bah not a big deal, don't have a record or point system for my BGs so I care not! Objectives? Nah just here to explode and implode individuals with extreme hate! Guy I'm fighting is a complete stud with his class and clowning me? Bah, he won't remember who I am anyway so I'm good!

But now with the iLevel cap that's being taken away. So randoms won't be much fun anymore either. Which only leaves twinking while leveling and I personally don't enjoy leveling over and over and over again so just not going to pvp at all.

As I said in the beginning it'll be up at first but again fall back down completely. PvP in this game really is a walking zombie who died years ago. Zombie just waiting for some holy water to be put out of it's misery.
Hello, it's me again with another topic. To preface, I've called T2 overpowered, disc priest buffs, rogue buffs (then nerfs), also other little things like shadow being OP, all before they were topics on the arena forums. Nearly every time I was ignored or flamed, but I am always right about these things.

...and you're full of yourself. Tons of people called all of these things before they went live. You also made fun of people and said Shield Wall would never be a 3 min CD when they suggested it. So you are not "always right about these things".

That being said, I think the resil change is a good idea especially for newer 90s and BGs. Hopefully it will help grow the PvP community by getting some PvE players and some newer players started in PvP.
Any extra participation it brings will be countered by the people quitting when they realize there is no point to arenaing since:

1. They will never be 2500 for some silly tabard
2. They won't be willing to put in the time/effort to find partners and improve
3. They will never get gladiator due to any reason other than themselves
Any extra participation it brings will be countered by the people quitting when they realize there is no point to arenaing since:

1. They will never be 2500 for some silly tabard
2. They won't be willing to put in the time/effort to find partners and improve
3. They will never get gladiator due to any reason other than themselves


You actually PvP to get gear? lol NO ONE PvPs to get gear, literally. What are you going to do when fully geared? The PvP of WoW is A LOT more repayable than raiding. Once you've seen one raid, you've seen them all. The same can't be said for arenas. Most players just want to have more competition.
05/13/2013 11:55 PMPosted by Truewan
lol NO ONE PvPs to get gear, literally.


Ho'h yeah? Nobody PvE's to get gear either I suppose.

05/13/2013 11:55 PMPosted by Truewan
What are you going to do when fully geared?


It doesn't really matter since when gear was dependent on ratings and you had that rating, all you played were people in equivalent gear anyways (in arenas anyways).

This removes incentive, why do you think people who have never PvP'ed before would suddenly take interest? Participation is so dead that arena has become "once you've queued into one team, you've seen them all" LITERALLY since all you'll get is that single team (in a game with a supposed multi-million user base).

My question should be what do you PvP for? You've played this game for almost 5 years and have never gotten gladiator, and most likely never will with how miniscule and corrupted the remaining spots have become. You think this is a draw for most players?
I am always right about these things.



oh ok
but I am always right about these things.


/pat
Any extra participation it brings will be countered by the people quitting when they realize there is no point to arenaing since:

1. They will never be 2500 for some silly tabard
2. They won't be willing to put in the time/effort to find partners and improve
3. They will never get gladiator due to any reason other than themselves


You actually PvP to get gear? lol NO ONE PvPs to get gear, literally. What are you going to do when fully geared? The PvP of WoW is A LOT more repayable than raiding. Once you've seen one raid, you've seen them all. The same can't be said for arenas. Most players just want to have more competition.


For someone who's apparently "always right" you are very wrong about this.

I am a "casual" PvP'er. I pug for points each week, typically deleting whatever team (and rating) I had from the week prior. I enjoy PvP as a "casual" because I like getting gear. Literally.

In a game that can be extremely frustrating when you are not favored by the RNG gods for PvE upgrades, PvP allows me to control a gearing outcome. If I want gear I can PvP, get points and then buy the exact gear I want. Makes me a happy camper each week when I have capped my points and I am at the vendor deciding which piece to buy next. I also happen to like e looks of PvP gear vs. PvE gear for transmog.

I also was extremely motivated to get my full set each season because it was a worthwhile pursuit. I knew that though I was bound to take my fair share of lumps getting there, once I was fully geared the reward would be that I would have a distinct advantage versus those who didn't put in the same effort. Effort and time should be rewarded significantly, not with some small % increase in effectiveness.

I'll wait to see how the changes shake out with 5.3, but I can tell you that as a casual PvP'er I am feeling much less motivated to bother grinding points (and thus bothering to queue for arena) next season. If they were looking to get more "casual" players involved in PvP their actions have already effectively removed one.
I've called T2 overpowered, disc priest buffs, rogue buffs (then nerfs), also other little things like shadow being OP


Congratulations on pointing out the most obvious things ever. Did you also point out hunter and warrior damage in 5.0? Or Legendary rogues in s11? because I hear those things went straight under the radar...

On topic and off flaming though I think the resil change is good, originally I didn't like it, but hopefully it will generate more activity in the ladders.
making changes for people who dont pvp is retarded.

taking away things that people pvp for is retarded.

5.3 will be pretty retarded.
Cortland - You basically just said you want a PVE version of PVP. Let me tell you why this doesn't work for rated PVP. Rated PVP requires an even playing field at all times through out a season. It is fundamentally linked to this principle. By having gear ups each season, it creates a variety of problems(especially with ever changing patches). One, gear disparities will arise in a variety of manners. Late starters, OP comps before nerf patches, farming, rated BG rigging etc. This type of issue fundamentally diminishes the ability of new players to join in each season at an exponential rate. First week, maybe 1% disparity but by week 10 or so its a 40-50% difference which makes its incredibly hard to join. By hard capping the effective ilevel, you allow new players/alts an inverse curve. It will start off at the largest gap possible, but will diminish as they gear up(IE will become more fun/do more damage/healing).

Finally, this promotes competition. Let's be honest, if your a 2400 player with all upper weapons and you que into a 1700 with the lesser weapons, you literally blew them up. Now you can say thats fun, but you can not say you beat them with skill alone. The changes put everyone on the same level, so if you do beat them, it was nothing but skill as a team.

Raennie
But by that rationalle why bother having gear at all? Why not just reduce everyone's iLVL to 1, with no additional stats, then it's simply your skill v my skill.

By removing the incentive to better your Toon to any appreciable degree, then if I am a casual PvP'er I may be interested briefly, but you won't keep my attention long term. Remember, I may be a casual PvP player who may not have the inclination to min/ max my "skills" (because I am more focused on PvE). Gear is my incentive.

It would be akin to telling a PvE player that they won't be getting gear upgrades. What's the point? There is skill involved in PvE as well, so why bother with gear upgrades? We could all just be ranked on "skill" (didn't stand in fire, paid attention to boss mechanics, performed your role properly, soaked damage with team etc) as opposed to DPS rankings.

To me, this resil change simply coddles a certain percentage of the player base that will lose interest in PvP after a few matches anyways. I don't foresee this driving huge player gains to this aspect of the game long term. There is nothing wrong with having to work for what you get and to making rewards worth the time invested to obtain them.
Now if they could please fix the honor grind for PvP gear :D


Do what I did. Kill the rares in Krassarang for the honor tokens. Drop your guild standard so you get the honor bonus and use them. You get 994ish honor for all 3. While they're down, que random BGs, or better do Wintergrasp, or Tol Barad if you haven't done em yet for the week. Complete those quests and again drop your guild standard before you turn them in for the bonus honor. Also there's the pvp dailies on the IoT, which you can again use your standard just before turning them all in. Took me less than a week to get full Malev set on a fresh 90 mage.
skill will still be the better factor


Precisely.

Skill should be the determining factor in a PvP encounter. The player who better uses his abilities to counter their opponents should win a PvP fight, every single time, not the one with the higher ilvl.

I think 5.3 is the best thing to happen to WoW pvp since the game has existed.

Along with the improvments OP listed, the changes in 5.3 will make botting/carrying/win trading almost entirely pointless, or at least far more risky than it's worth. That is something everyone can enjoy, no one likes having bots on their team, and I'm sure I'm not the only one tired of being globaled by full T2 bad players who win traded to 2400.

But all classes... if you are 1500 now, expect to be 1800 with the increased number of participation in PvP. If you are 2k, exopect to be 2300. Maybe even higher depending on the turn out.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

no.
But by that rationalle why bother having gear at all? Why not just reduce everyone's iLVL to 1, with no additional stats, then it's simply your skill v my skill.

By removing the incentive to better your Toon to any appreciable degree, then if I am a casual PvP'er I may be interested briefly, but you won't keep my attention long term. Remember, I may be a casual PvP player who may not have the inclination to min/ max my "skills" (because I am more focused on PvE). Gear is my incentive.

It would be akin to telling a PvE player that they won't be getting gear upgrades. What's the point? There is skill involved in PvE as well, so why bother with gear upgrades? We could all just be ranked on "skill" (didn't stand in fire, paid attention to boss mechanics, performed your role properly, soaked damage with team etc) as opposed to DPS rankings.

To me, this resil change simply coddles a certain percentage of the player base that will lose interest in PvP after a few matches anyways. I don't foresee this driving huge player gains to this aspect of the game long term. There is nothing wrong with having to work for what you get and to making rewards worth the time invested to obtain them.


Why is there so many comparisons to PvE? PvP is a completely different game than the PvE of WoW. I really don't know any serious PvPer who enjoys PvE... I can't think of any out of the 200+ 2.2k players I know.

I am simply saying, it's like comparing a Nascar race to driving in traffic. In what way can competitive races be compared to cars that follow rules.
Why is there so many comparisons to PvE? PvP is a completely different game than the PvE of WoW. I really don't know any serious PvPer who enjoys PvE... I can't think of any out of the 200+ 2.2k players I know.

I am simply saying, it's like comparing a Nascar race to driving in traffic. In what way can competitive races be compared to cars that follow rules.


Um, you DO realize they just made these sweeping changes to PvP to lure in PvE players, right?

If you don't know any serious PvE players who enjoy PvP, why should it be different for PvE players caring about PvP? Yet blizzard feels that is IS the case, thus the changes.

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