Prot paladin advice.

Paladin
This advice is not specifically for me or any of my characters however I do have a related problem of sorts.
I keep up with all the different tanks (i also have a holy/ret pally) and I know by heart their general play styles and general stat weights some I have more knowledge of some with some gaps but I have a good idea of how they work. prot pally falls into the latter.
I know they prefer haste over pretty much everything else to keep HoPo generation high and shield of the righteous dmg reduction uptime as high as possible. mastery would be next best since it increase the dmg reduction and also the heal amount of WoG. basically everything but crit is a decent stat since 5.2 gave avoidance some HoPo generation of its own.

few things I'm not sure of are whether need hit and hard exp cap. I prefer this on my tanks but I know shield will still reduce dmg even if it misses but I don't know if their abilities will generate HoPo if they miss but I also know that DPS is probably more important on them then any other tank class because with battle healer it gives the raid heals compared to their dps and hit and exp are always the largest increases for dps for any class/spec.
the other thing I don't know is their relative stat weight or gain from getting or stacking stamina. from what I knew the only tank that went out of their way for stamina was a blood dk because since they mitigate the least damage they need to be sure they have enough effective health to not get an unlucky streak and get burst down.

So now you may be thinking alright monk why are you in the pally section and why are you asking all these questions. Well I ask because I am the core tank in both of my guilds core groups (different raid times I use different toons) and in this toons group the other tank is a prot paladin and he has all out stacked stam to what is in my opinion a ridiculous degree that seems wasteful and ineffective. He is 517 Ilvl and 1 thing that has baffled me is typically when this happens I'm not an !@#$%^- I simply ask the person why they are going for such and such build and if their reason makes sense I say alright awesome and move on but his only reasons he has told me is that stamina is important on a paladin. (In what way?) and after I said haste is not only a dps and heal increase but also a dmg taken decrease over stamina he said that he does not have the gear too go for a haste build yet...
How is this a thing? there were no haste thresh holds I knew of that would say you need X amount of gear for it to work. and even so 517 is pretty damn geared for normal ToT runs so how does that argument hold up?
Im 504 and I still meet all my requirements as a brewmaster. sure I could use alot more crit but Im hit and exp capped and ive got haste to my ascension thresh hold so how is he not geared enough while I am for what is quite alot of required stat bloat.

I ask you to make sure I am not in the wrong. I have not confronted him really ive just like I said simply asked and saw from his responses that he was too stubborn to budge without some sort of conflict. I'm not trying to start things with him and I only mean to not only help him out but really to help our raid and its progression out by helping him better his characters performance. we are still progressing and while it may not be causing wipes there is no reason such a geared prot pally should be having consistently low damage done with very low (in comparison to what I typically see in pugs lfr and streams) heals from seal of insight all in the name of stacking stam which means even more damage taken and more health needing to be healed up. If I am wrong on this situation and stam stacking is somehow extremely viable and competitive (please don't cite heroic progression health pools because we are nowhere near that kind of progression or gear levels and even then I saw most of them haste stack) then not only will I tell him I was wrong in game and apologize but I will forward him to this board and apologize to him on here for all to see.

On a side note some of you may keep up with multiple tanks and specs and for those who know prot warriors well can you tell me if this same strategy (stam stacking) is relevant for a prot warrior? My prot has again gone for hit exp caps and focus more on mastery stacking and uses 1 stam trinket and 1 str dps trinket (shado pan) I do well and have no problems however I ran into a guy in a pug that again was stacking the crap out of stamina and he was better geared then my warrior and I didn't even have to ask as he rambled on in chat why he wanted soul barrier so bad because stamina is "soooo good for warriors" I didn't question but this as well confuses me. I think 1 stamina trinket on most tanks outside of a brewmaster is more then enough health for any content if you have a similar overall ilvl to the content you're tanking.

Anyways thanks for reading and I will greatly appreciate any responses and will get back to them asap. (btw If I am correct in my pally assumption and you all as a community don't think it rude of me to do so I will direct him to this board so he can read for himself any tips and input you all may have.)
Incase I do end up directing you here pally friend please do not take offense to what I posted or the input I am trying to give I'm only trying to help and the while you may not be all out full stam gem in every slot but you at the very least have a hybrid of stam + something else in each socket which all could be better used I think. also the bit about hit and exp cap is not directed towards you I am just legitimately curious if paladins value it as everyone else.
If im wrong proceed to gloat and flaunt it anytime you like of course.
(Note to the community if you are curious I can post his stats and gear and such but I will not post his armory till I get the go ahead from him and feel free to rip on me as much as you like im not perfect.)
Yes, we want to cap Hit and Expertise.

Stamina is a volatile subject on these forums. Personally, I use the default AMR weights for Control-Haste, but drop Stamina to a value of 1.3. I only gem hybrid Stamina in blue sockets where I want the bonus. I don't have any Stamina enchants aside from the obvious ones (shoulders, legs, back, and chest), and I don't currently use a Stamina trinket, but I would probably grab the 2200 one from Lei Shen if I saw it drop.

Theck is one of the more prominent Prot Paladin theorycrafters, and he makes a compelling argument for Stamina being one of our best damage smoothing stats. Might want to read what he has to say about it on his blog, sacredduty.net

We all know you need "enough" Stamina, but how much is "enough" is very subjective, and depends on experience, playstyle, and the rest of the raid team. In my old guild, heals were sometimes lacking so I geared more conservatively. In my new guild, heals are solid so I gear more offensively. You have to be willing to read, experiment, and adapt.

Someone who is new to tanking and a little slow on the cooldowns is probably fine stacking Stamina. If you guys aren't wiping and making steady progress, I wouldn't really worry about it. If you're not hitting enrage timers, I'm not sure I would worry about your tank DPS.

This is sure to get ugly, so I'll leave it at that.
Haste!!!!!! Stam is required to take a few boss hits w/o mitigation. Once you have figured that out for the content your playing, then thats your answer.

Stam is great for content that has high non-phy damage or are under geared for the content.

The more haste you have the more heals you will produce as prot.
The more haste you have the more dps and mitigation as prot!

My team has not had a full roster in weeks. Lastnight we had some lower geared ppl with us. I use haste/armor elixir. We needed a dps increase for phase changes on Lei shen. I ranked 25th in dps, but look at the healing done as well. Sotr uptime wasn't too bad either and i had no adds in b/t phases.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-40py2swxr1tyvt6c/sum/damageDone/?s=5823&e=6384#Rubert

edit: i wanted to add something, a tip.

I take lei shen for a few seconds on pull. I hit him then turn my back until the other tank taunts, its about 2 or 3 seconds. My veng is pretty nice and an ez 200k burst off tanking is produced.
hmmm. well this isn't as definitive as I was hoping for.
Maybe stamina does help in ways but I don't see why you wouldn't go for haste/mastery. like I said he's better geared then either of my tanks but both of my tanks out dps him by a good 20k - 30k and not even talking damage on the boss but thats more heals through battle healer. I didn't realize that avoidance stam mitigated overall less damage but the same can be said for a mastery avoiding warrior using only shield barrier. I still find it counter productive making you spikey, do less damage, (less healing for him) and personally for me active mitigation and working on taking less damage is much more fun.
I thought those ICC stam days were over 0_0
From what little bit I know... (don't even bother with my armory, I haven't even got the first boss of MSV down yet... If anyone needs or would help an aspiring raid tank, I am darquewing#1881)

As I was saying, what little bit I know, Haste is our primary concern. Hit/Expertise, etc. has been talked about and pretty standard.

Stamina I believe is a "what feels right" stat. It's also a stat that can seriously effect your healers mana pools (and their stress levels) the most. From what I have experienced, and read, having enough Stamina to take a big hit and still have some health left over is important. The difference between 20% health and 30% health after big hits can keep your healers from going OOM or possibly sacrificing DPS to keep the tank up.

So, maybe there is a balance:

Haste/Mastery = Damage smoothing and less over all mana spent by healers.
Stamina = Expensive heals used less and some wiggle room if having trouble keeping up with active mitigation.

Anyhow, that's my two cents, which may not be worth even that. lol

Theck is one of the more prominent Prot Paladin theorycrafters, Might want to read what he has to say about it on his blog, sacredduty.net

Well I'll be damned! I am wrong...mostly
shout out to you ingsoc for pointing me in the right direction.

http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/04/16/stamina-updated-smoothness-data/

He has several posts and other such things talking about stam but that is the most recent and relevant but If you combine that data with what he talks about heals and passive healing the possibility of you dying outside of large spike damage is incredibly small and while it does not technically mitigate damage stam does and by quite a large margin smooth damage out more then any other stat.
While it is true that it is more to be healed up the % of health is more important to healers and how they react. if a large Health pool tank takes a hit and drops to 50% health the heals won't think too much of it and use the moderate mana safe heals such as something like penance. however if a lower health pool tank takes the same hit but because he has a low health pool heals will see him drop to 30% and they possibly freak out and use flash heal or something similar that is incredibly mana inefficient.
However there are some other things that I've noticed from my friends armory and from the sims. My friend has no stam trinkets which the best results come from because of the 1.5 ratio of stam to secondary on trinkets. He also has very little else. I guess this is where him saying he doesn't have the gear comes into play. He has almost 36k stam higher then any of the sims stam rating but he has only 5k mastery which isn't so bad but amazingly through some magic not a single piece of his gear has haste on it and as i said he hasnt gemmed enchanted or trinket any haste.
so he has 5k mastery and 0 haste for a simple total of 5k secondary "smoothing stats" where as the sims has 9.5k smoothing stats along with large amount of stamina(these sim'd for the most smoothing). I would think the smoothing stats add more effectiveness to each point of stamina. On top of that 8k of the smoothing is from haste which I assume has more weight then mastery especially at such low haste levels. While for the most part my assumption that his stam stacking was ineffective was very wrong I am still partly right that he needs haste and the things that come with it.
I still admit defeat but in more of his blogs he also talks about how the whole stam "till you can live long enough" thing started because pro's started shaving stamina from their builds in favor of dps stats such as haste but unlike what the armory stalkers assumed this was purely a sacrifice of defense for offense. you lose some defense by taking haste or some stat over stam however you gain the added benefit of dps which means more heals for the pally.
As I mentioned him dying has never been a problem but dps on the other hand kinda sorta has. I've felt some fights would go smoother for us with more damage but we also just hit iron qon today. no attempts so far but from what i know on my warrior its mostly a dps race since cooldown management isn't that hard to do just takes some attempts to know what works and doesn't but not making dps requirements on fights like this can be the biggest stopper. you can learn to avoid mechanics and all that but if your group doesn't have damage for a fight then its much harder to bring up in line.

I don't expect a tank to make up slack for dps but at a certain point tanks need good damage and damage is doubly good for a paladin. also a tip to you specifically pally friend! With your abnormally low haste I would think DP(divine purpose) would be a pretty atrocious talent for you. I do remember reading DP will give more HoPo over a fight but I don't think that accounted for 0 haste which means your HoPo generation to have more chances at DP procs is as low as possible so you should definitely swap to holy avenger. I don't know if you used it for a specific fight or what but I would think HA actually get more "effective" with lower haste since at high haste values you can't use you HoPo generators fast enough while spending the HoPo. Now if you don't want another cooldown that's fine with me but I'm just pointing out HA may give more HoPo for your build and its also alot more effective for all the tank swap fights.

And so I admit defeat because I was wrong and it was wrong of me to assume that you did not know what you were doing. proceed to kick my !@# and such I earned it.

On a side note I swear if one of you pallys come out with some blog crazy theory crafter that says I'm also wrong that mastery is point for point more effective health then stam for a brewmaster then I just may go insane.

Well I'll be damned! I am wrong...mostly
shout out to you ingsoc for pointing me in the right direction.

http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/04/16/stamina-updated-smoothness-data/


I am glad the blog was helpful. I wouldn't exactly say that you're wrong. The biggest thing I've taken away from Theck's blog is that there are cost effective ways to get more Stamina (like your trinket example), without sacrificing your yellow and red gem slots. I certainly don't think anyone doing normal modes should be gemming pure Stamina in all slots. Regardless of how good Stamina may be at smoothing your health bar, that's just crazy inefficient.

Well I'll be damned! I am wrong...mostly
shout out to you ingsoc for pointing me in the right direction.

http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/04/16/stamina-updated-smoothness-data/


I am glad the blog was helpful. I wouldn't exactly say that you're wrong. The biggest thing I've taken away from Theck's blog is that there are cost effective ways to get more Stamina (like your trinket example), without sacrificing your yellow and red gem slots. I certainly don't think anyone doing normal modes should be gemming pure Stamina in all slots. Regardless of how good Stamina may be at smoothing your health bar, that's just crazy inefficient.

Ill talk to him during raid and see if its fine if i post his armory. I think while it is a bit in excess its not too terribly over stammed from what I was reading.
Edit: He just said it was fine so feel free to use his armory
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/illidan/Xerx%C3%ACs/simple
Unfortunately he last logged out in ret so you will have to wait a bit before he can log out in prot so you can pine over the stats gems and such.
basically just throw any tips you may have for him here and I'll make sure he sees it and yes he has seen the thread and I have apologized.
According to this weeks logs:
1. Low to very low Sacred Shield uptime - Sadder than sad here... Most OP heal that we have.
2. Low to avg Sotr uptime - using dp, maybe try HA..
3. Weakened Blow is your friend while tanking Horridon btw. like 2% uptime. no other sources on boss for extended periods.
4. Low dps overall - he is using DP and holding back from using Sotr... could be timing a phase change or an attack, but damn it looks bad.

He should be solo tanking Durumu as well. His dps is really low on fights where he should be top dps or close to it. SS uptime really hurts his hps.... his hps were extremely low.

edit: just a tip but, You tank the mass A golem until it gets nearly full, right before its full the pally tanks him. The pally will take a good few stacks depending on the boss's life and his comfort. He will divine shield, cancel aura, taunt the mass a golem back and hold it until the boss is dead. Hes made for this job.
According to this weeks logs:
1. Low to very low Sacred Shield uptime - Sadder than sad here... Most OP heal that we have.
2. Low to avg Sotr uptime - using dp, maybe try HA..
3. Weakened Blow is your friend while tanking Horridon btw. like 2% uptime. no other sources on boss for extended periods.
4. Low dps overall - he is using DP and holding back from using Sotr... could be timing a phase change or an attack, but damn it looks bad.

He should be solo tanking Durumu as well. His dps is really low on fights where he should be top dps or close to it. SS uptime really hurts his hps.... his hps were extremely low.

What a little sherlock. Well I can't comment on these since I don't know paladins well enough and I'm more concerned with my own performance when I'm digging through logs.

I was going to say that I mentioned they could solo tank before but I actually told the other guild group on my warrior. I think the RL knows about that strategy but if he doesn't I can inform him next week though 1 other problem is despite the name I really don't play WW much and if I ever do use it I still only have my tank set for a dps set including tank trinkets so I don't know if my dps would really be worth 1 tanking it
Easy sweet fix for Durumu, you solo tank that bastard and use the Bop's for yourself. Huge increase in dps and he can do more in his ret set than 47k dps lol. I looked at yall's logs again and wow!!!!!!!!!!! Yall have 2 pallys and NO Hand of protection used on that fight...... Missing out of a great mechanic there!

edit: yall can use tactics like this for Iron qon later as well. Bop's for the boss stacks and Divine shield if yall use the strat on stacking w/ the tank.
Yea quite the investigative work little curious how you found all that out so fast 0.0
I assume I will need to make a macro to quickly remove BoP. how many stacks do you bop at?
again though I will bring it up to the RL I am sure he would be up for it.
I bop around 6/7 stacking going to my next stare (bop after stare), but im pretty geared now. So maybe after your 5th going to the next stare. You could bop 2x per phase as well because the pallys can use Clemency! Im set up as a pally and my CDs work perfectly for this fight using HA. SS is pretty OP on this fight as well for a pally.

Again maybe do it safe and bop 2x per phase around 4-5 stacks.

The Hunter should be using Widow's venom on the boss for the hungry eyes too.
Hmm I didn't consider that hunter thing. I will mention that as well.
As for stacks 5 would be the most for me. We tank swap on 5 when we 2 tank and when Im hitting 5 things really start to get sketchy for me.
1 last I think I noticed which kind of makes all of my pally dps griping null is that he (you) aren't using battle healer. if you noticed from that other paladins logs just from using seal of insight and using battle healer he was 3rd top healing done with just that 1 seal and glyph it did 55% of that 50k HPS.
that's the kind of power a pally and his damage can bring.
That was really me being bad and not having good uptime on my SS. My dumbass was more concerned w/ dps, because survival is nothing on that fight (mechanics =all)... well until the end. Dps is our survival!!!!

added: yall have the best tanks for 10m imo. As 10m tanks we are more of the pie than 25m tanks so our dps kinda matters.
Macros for bubbling off stacks of debuffs

/cancelaura Divine Shield
/cast Divine Shield

/cancelaura Hand of Protection
/cast Hand of Protection

you can also add in
/cast Reckoning

as the last line if you want to automatically taunt.
I'll use the macros if we decided to 1 tank durumu with me as the tank.

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