[PROT] Survival v. Control

Paladin
Post Limit:
Which one is the best paladin tank for raiding?

I assume most people know there are two classifications for protection paladins. Survival stacks stamina and dodge/parry, while control stacks stamina and hits the cap for hit/mastery.

Which one is the best for tanking as a paladin? I am currently using survival, yet I still get wrecked when I am tanking.
Hit+Exp cap > haste > mastery gives you the best survival
Hit+Exp cap > haste > mastery gives you the best survival


This is probably common knowledge to you all, but how does Hit+Exp give the best survival? On-hit effects? So active mitigation?
"Survival" is a misnomer given to the avoidance build by people who don't understand what each build does. Control builds are generally better for survival than the "Survival" build (unless you suck at using active defenses).

This is probably common knowledge to you all, but how does Hit+Exp give the best survival? On-hit effects? So active mitigation?

Crusader Strike and Judgment don't generate Holy Power if they don't hit the target. Capping hit and expertise guarantee reliable Holy Power generation, which maximizes Shield of the Righteous uptime.
Crusader Strike and Judgment don't generate Holy Power if they don't hit the target. Capping hit and expertise guarantee reliable Holy Power generation, which maximizes Shield of the Righteous uptime.

Cool, thanks for the explanation
An avoidance build takes less total damage than a Control build, but this is not the same thing as being better at surviving. And after all, a tank's job IS NOT "take less damage", it's "take damage and survive".

As a very exaggerated example, compare two scenarios:
1) A five-minute fight, getting hit for 40k every two seconds
2) A five-minute fight, getting hit only once at the two-minute mark for three million damage

The tank in 1) takes dramatically more total damage (6 million, compared to 3 million), and yet probably survives the fight with minimal stress on the healers. The second tank dies, probably causing a wipe.

Realistic comparisons are far less extreme than this, but still operate on the same principle: total damage taken is not the metric you care about. A control build is better at not dying, because your SotR/WoG is stronger and more frequent, allowing you to better mitigate the kind of dangers that actually kill tanks. An avoidance build takes less damage on average, but their mitigation is not reliable, and so they are the most vulnerable to worst-case scenarios.
So before I learned about active mitigation I used to stack up parry and dodge with stamna, thank god that I changed. Vengeance stacks up better and you take much less damage spikes, the class also gets much funner to play as well as a nice dps boost. More control over targets+ more survivability(less damage spikes= easier healing= more time alive)+ faster rotation that comes with more dps makes the class funner to play with.
05/14/2013 08:42 PMPosted by Cesda
Vengeance stacks up better and you take much less damage spikes,
Actually, how you gear has no impact on Vengeance at all. Despite the way the description is worded, vengeance gains are based on the unmitigated damage, and you still gain vengeance for absorbed and avoided attacks (they basically had to do this otherwise it would cause tank threat to essentially decrease as they geared up which would be backwards).

The only aspect of your gear that affects vengeance at all is your max health since that's the vengeance cap. But because of how vengeance works you'll rarely ever actually get near the cap anyways. (due to the slow swing timers bosses typically have, in order for them to do enough damage to get your vengeance that high they'd need to be nearly one-shotting you on every swing. the only time you'll really get that high are situations like Windlord where there are a bunch of targets resulting in more frequent, smaller hits so that the damage intake is actually manageable/survivable).
the only time you'll really get that high are situations like Windlord where there are a bunch of targets resulting in more frequent, smaller hits so that the damage intake is actually manageable/survivable

And even Wind Lord wouldn't bring tanks to the cap. According to some posts in the tanking forum back when the cap was implemented, even on heroic the adds would only bring tanks to around 300k Vengeance. So, realistically, no part of your gear will affect it, unless you somehow manage to have really low health and still survive the damage to bring Vengeance up that high.
Yeah, in order to be at the vengeance cap it means that in the previous 20 seconds you had taken 50 times your max health in pre-mitigated/avoided damage. Granted armor alone drops that down to around 20 times your health, and still not accounting for avoidance/absorbs/cds/sotr/etc, but is still a rather extreme amount of damage intake and you probably wouldn't be able to survive that for very long.

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