Blizz should not give in to crying rogues.

Arenas
Turn your sound up and listen for the rogue and watch your screen. More than naught I find rogues first and cancel their openers by dropping a flare on them. Also big thing to know about rogues....don't sit around in their openers....they kind of hurt.
05/11/2013 10:39 PMPosted by Sylassanna
You're bad shut up.


Question. If that scenario actually did happen, what skills should he have used? His gems already lean towards Resil. The Rogue can't be seen during that time. What's the skill-answer?

Trinketing cheap-shot and blowing Deterrance before the Rogue even started in with the follow-up?


He should have popped ROS would have kept him alive a little longer.
05/13/2013 01:53 PMPosted by Kanelos
Turn your sound up and listen for the rogue

Better get that SitRep Pro yo
watch your screen

Screen watching 2 OP riot plz nerf
I really think the OP died in a prepared swap, not an opener. Unless all 4-6 players in the arena were stealthed and sneaking around, chances are the rogue opened on someone else.

And if the OP did die in a prepared swap then... isn't that how it's supposed to work?


It's not hard to get a hunter out. Playing thug at 2400+ back on Shadowburn this season all I had to do was flare him out then hard open him with my rogue. If RMP nova him out etc etc. No hunter glyphs camo in 3s so you always know where he is.

Also no that's not how it should work. If balance or good play is what anyone wants, classes shouldn't be able to do what rogues do right now. The ability to solo any class in a swap shouldn't exist. This game was best when classes didn't exist that could do that. I think S10 was a prime example of this, when nothing could really kill you 100-0 by their lonesome with ideal CDs up. During that season the best was probably mage and they could only bring you to 30-40% with absolutely everything up and you having nothing, requiring strong assistance from a 2nd DPS.

It should be a complete team effort. As it stands when I play with an equally skilled rogue, I can sit in a stun, get a trap, and he can kill something and I wouldn't have to trink. It felt so retarded that I actually refuse to play the comp now and picked up some random trade dudes to play a different comp.

05/12/2013 11:40 PMPosted by Natashya
I lost a 2's game


Yeh please stop there. Balance discussions shouldn't include 2s. You especially shouldn't be losing to resto/mage as disc/rogue as well so that makes it even worse.
Yes because our cheapshot is 2 seconds long and we can do 2 evis's plus apply rupture in 1 GCD
Yeh please stop there. Balance discussions shouldn't include 2s. You especially shouldn't be losing to resto/mage as disc/rogue as well so that makes it even worse.


I agree with your part about one class not being able to solo another. But this intrigues me. I want to know what I could have done better. I spent a lot of the game simply being kited.
Granted I was playing mut, so I wasn't abusing the ridiculous mobility of dance+CnD.

But honestly, I felt like I had no chance as mut, lol. What should I do?
Also no that's not how it should work. If balance or good play is what anyone wants, classes shouldn't be able to do what rogues do right now. The ability to solo any class in a swap shouldn't exist. This game was best when classes didn't exist that could do that. I think S10 was a prime example of this, when nothing could really kill you 100-0 by their lonesome with ideal CDs up. During that season the best was probably mage and they could only bring you to 30-40% with absolutely everything up and you having nothing, requiring strong assistance from a 2nd DPS.


QFT :) It's not really fun to kill, or to be killed, in this fashion.
I only played S8 on my rogue (before last season). Even then, with all the burst in wotlk, kills were a little bit more momentum based: you were putting out more pressure than could be healed through and turned it into a burst situation where you finished someone off from 50-60% hp.

Defending my post that you replied to, though: it's the state of the game now. Anyone one of a number of classes could have solo'd him in a swap if he's without a trinket.
05/11/2013 11:33 PMPosted by Cylestria


Question. If that scenario actually did happen, what skills should he have used? His gems already lean towards Resil. The Rogue can't be seen during that time. What's the skill-answer?

Trinketing cheap-shot and blowing Deterrance before the Rogue even started in with the follow-up?


BW -> disengage -> flare -> intimidation -> proceed to take the rogue to 50% in 4 seconds

thats your "skill answer"

flare is useless , rogue still cheap shotted u.
QFT :) It's not really fun to kill, or to be killed, in this fashion.
I only played S8 on my rogue (before last season). Even then, with all the burst in wotlk, kills were a little bit more momentum based: you were putting out more pressure than could be healed through and turned it into a burst situation where you finished someone off from 50-60% hp.

Defending my post that you replied to, though: it's the state of the game now. Anyone one of a number of classes could have solo'd him in a swap if he's without a trinket.


Not entirely. It's a pretty poor defense to say "that's the game deal with it" when Holinka has went out of his way to massively nerf burst across the board, especially to the extent of literally redesigning armor sets (something Gregg Street almost refused to do during the entirety of Cata), just to prove that it SHOULDN'T be the way the game goes.

Also not really on your last point as well. There are 4 god mode spec/classes atm. Spriest, BM, Rog, and Mage. Now there are many spec v spec scenarios where a full on solo can happen for example DK vs Disc, or Feral vs Unshielded Mage. However Mages and Rogues are the only class in the game that currently exist that yield the ability to 100-0 any single non-tank spec of any single class within the time span of CC they can set up by themselves.

Even as retarded as BM is right now, only certain specs can I crush in the span of my own CC. I can bring leather and non spriest/lock clothies to somewhere around 30-40% by myself in the span of my own trap in ideal situations with good RNG crits. Even that pales to what rogues can do to every single non-tank spec in this game.

These nerfs need to go through for all god mode specs atm, especially rogues. For all the rogues screaming OMG S12, they also need to realize that with the exception of VERY small tweaks, s12 rogues were closer to balance than almost all other specs and classes. The fact that the most effective rogue stomping comp consisted of 80% of every single BG was one of the largest hits to rogue effectiveness in arena.

Nerfing KFC was probably right up there in an indirect rogue arena buff as adding CnD. Doing that then adding CnD thus completely re-making how subterfuge (a talent that already existed) would play out in arena made it all waaay too much.
I agree with your part about one class not being able to solo another. But this intrigues me. I want to know what I could have done better. I spent a lot of the game simply being kited.
Granted I was playing mut, so I wasn't abusing the ridiculous mobility of dance+CnD.

But honestly, I felt like I had no chance as mut, lol. What should I do?


If you're constantly being kited by a mage you need to set it up better in 2s. Plan dispels properly, swap with garrotes, and don't be afraid to rofl the water ele constantly to remove a root. Most mages can't micro their ele well, so killing the ele is quite easy. Then you dispel the nova, and he's toast. Even better is to kill the ele, and swap the resto druid. Make it look like you want mage, pop dance, then wreck the druid. If you just train the mage 24/7 yes, the root time will add up.

All in all though, ending game damage doesn't really mean squat. When I was playing with my rogue, he was always the lowest damage. He was constantly running for restealths, but everytime he got one, we pretty much had the ability to 100-0 something in a web-trap. Dances he could pretty much to it all himself. It doesn't matter what your overall dps is, if you can do the entirety of a persons HP bar in the span of 1 decent CC chain.

That would exactly be the point of the reason a lot of these nerfs need to stick. The real issue with rogues is the synergy between CnD + Subterfuge and/or Dance. The reason being is it makes them insanely difficult to peel off a target, especially given their ability to "juke" it.

In previous expansions the rogue would set up a kill swap, and step to the target. Once this happens you had to react before he pumped out a bunch of ambushes. However it was stoppable as if you created distance you could get around it. This was why it was "ok" to have a 1 minute dance. Now for the entirety of the dance you are literally glued to your target. You can also juke it by cheaping one target, they spend something to save or peel him, then you just teleport to something else across the map and still do crazy damage. You may not solo this one since you'll lose an ambush because of energy costs, but you'll still wreck his face by yourself.

Rogues without subter + CnD are actually quite balanced imo. They still have some huge burst, but the 20% nerf to find weakness should help alleviate those occasional 120k evis crits.
cloak and dagger is useless talent now which mean every rogue will go back to shadowstep but I am pretty sure you whinners in forums will find a way to complain about rogues again.


If you cared about stuff being useless, you wouldn't use Glyph of Debilitation.


I'm not even very good at PvP, and I've maybe been killed by rogues half a dozen times. Maybe.


You are plate, duh


I'm not even very good at PvP, and I've maybe been killed by rogues half a dozen times. Maybe.


You are plate, duh


Pretty sure any healer can face tank a dps in the 1500 2v2 bracket. 3s where a rogue is actually playing properly and he'll be dead in the 2nd or 3rd swap. 1st if rogues priest MDs the bubble quickly.
You forget rogues have this ability called subterfuge that no matter what they can get an opener, BM into deter does nothing to stop the opener, better to have partner peel if possible.


...

how does that not stop the opener?
how does that not stop the opener?


It does. I think what he's getting at is the fact that you cannot know if the rogue is popping anything until you've already been slapped for half your HP you're stuck in a situation where you're often already screwed.

Sounds don't play, CDs from the rogue don't appear in the combat log, you just have to look at your HP bar and you have to wait until you see 60-80ks or a 6 digit evis before you know he's popped CDs and now you're already so far behind. Classes that rely on damage prevention CDs vs CDs that erase or undo damage are especially effected by this stuff because you have to either just guess and waste a large amount of CDs or wait until he's already chunked you hard. No other class can pop CDs and not play sound or completely avoid showing up in your combat log so you can pop a CD to stuff the incoming damage. It removes a lot of the little "skillful" play that is left by stuffing your opponent by being faster and better. You just have to guess.

It's especially frustrating with how incredibly easy it is for rogues to get full openers with their entire toolset, and because of shroud getting into combat to prevent the full opener means his partners can be complete morons and you still cannot prevent a sap.

Right now rogues are the strongest they've ever been since BC toolkit and damage wise, and even worse the new mechanics have allowed even the derpiest clicking rogue teams to pull off combos and setups that you would never see until 2200+ due to CnD, Subterfuge, and Shroud.
ya i agree with basically all of that, but you can generally tell when a rogue has popped cooldowns because you see shadowblade damage as well

I do think subterfuge gets a lot more complaints than it actually deserves though, people really exaggerate what a rogue can do in the small window

It's more cloak and dagger that makes the spec a bit brainless right now and that's already been addressed
ya i agree with basically all of that, but you can generally tell when a rogue has popped cooldowns because you see shadowblade damage as well

I do think subterfuge gets a lot more complaints than it actually deserves though, people really exaggerate what a rogue can do in the small window

It's more cloak and dagger that makes the spec a bit brainless right now and that's already been addressed


Well you can't see anything specific during subterfuge. Sblades, white damage, special damage, none of it shows up in the combat log. Vanilla combat text displays just numbers, and your HP bar moves. It isn't until he comes out where it starts to differentiate what source the damage is. I suppose you can use combat text mods to get around that? But I think it's silly to need a mod to tell you when somebody has used something.

Subterfuge itself was never really an issue. It's how subterfuge, CnD, shroud, Sub mastery and things like prey on the weak all can work as 1 giant ability in a short time span. Too many eggs in one basket imo. Rogue damage outside of this is awful, rogue damage inside of dance, restealths, and openers is ridonkulous and absolutely frustrating to deal with.

Wish they'd just make subterfuge still allow stealth abilities but not completely invisible for the opener, remove CnD, make Step baseline talent you learn at a certain level, and that entire tier just devoted to Shadowstep functions similar to warriors charge tier. Then look at nerfing Evis through the ability or through mastery, and then finding a way to buff rogue damage outside of CDs through hemo or backstab.

I don't want to see rogues junked. I don't want them to be insane either.
Dunno, I run combat text and I see big shadowblade images when they pop it on me

I've always wanted subterfuge to be like that, as long as I get the mini dance it's fine really

With step our mobility is gonna be pretty poor I think, step is really outdated on a 24 second cd, especially seeing as on top of its bad cooldown it doesn't mini stun or slow the target you're on at all
"Yeh please stop there. Balance discussions shouldn't include 2s. "
Stupid (but correct) answer. The real answer is obvious - this game isn't balanced at all. No one class should have all the cards - be it warlocks, mages or rogues. Only idiots will argue how the game is balanced around 3s and 5s ignoring the underlying truth that the game is broken.
Stop balancing rogues around overpowered stealth mechanics. Make it easier for them to get back into stealth and nerf their stealth damage bonuses.

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