Movement Penalty Philosophy Change (@Lhivera)

Mage
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Question: Does granting range players the ability to retain more and more damage on the move (as illustrated by the upcoming Lightning Bolt changes in 5.3) make it harder and harder to design encounters where melee DPS are not trailing behind?

Answer: Traditionally, the melee advantage was being able to do damage while moving, but now a lot of ranged are also good at movement. We could certainly go back in and prune a lot of cast-on-the-move and instant spells from casters, but on the other hand we know players think those abilities are fun and you can even argue that having to stand and “turret” as a combat mechanic feels a little dated. There is also a continuum here: casting Lightning Bolt while moving isn’t a big balance problem, but something like passive Kil’jaeden’s Cunning might be.

Rather than making casters terrible at moving, we’d rather develop a niche that melee are really good at. For example, we could emphasize that melee are really good at cleaving multiple targets, or they could be more survivable, or both. We are going to explore these ideas more.


Looks like they've changed their philosophy on penalizing ranged for moving. Figured they were going in a different direction when I saw that Lightning Bolt patch note. Personally I felt like they weren't delivering on that design anyway all throughout the expansion, and like they touched upon, not being able to cast while moving isn't fun. I wasn't a fan.

I hope this opens the door for Frost and Arcane getting better mobile DPS, whether it be via a Spiritwalker's Grace-type ability or something else, especially if they're going to let other ranged do great mobile damage. Boss fights are generally becoming more movement heavy over time. In a vacuum Arcane and to a lesser extent Frost might look fine but they really are just an outright inferior option compared to other ranged in mobile situations.
I believe that there have to be some specs that could have limited movement, like arcane, but it should be compensated with a higher damage when standing still. (anyway arcane mobility needs some buff because its too limited atm).

But i mean, no major buffs or changes, but since you wont be doing decent damage on a huge chunk of the fight, this should be compensated with the turret damage (a shorter duration, higher dmg% rune of power would be a good idea, combined with current ice floes, and giving us back improved blink).

Btw im only focusing on pve if you havent noticed.
I would be fine if they moved it back to "turret" style casting IF we could keep melee off us for longer. Admittedly I am a fan of vanilla PVP. I know, times have changed....I just dont like it. If you had more cast on the move options, it seems, it would be nicer. Not being able to cast while moving isnt fun, and I agree with that to an extent. I am still getting used to it with my lock....it still feels wierd. Then when I go back to my mage, its "Oh yeah I can't do that." But I wish they'd make up they're minds. Let us cast on the move, or let us keep distance like we used to and stand and cast. Just my $0.02 fwiw
An unfortunate decision, but hopefully they won't take it too far. The Warlock/Hunter models are terrible, and he did indicate that KJC may be too much. Here's hoping they can make the playstyle fun without making Mages cast while running around like rogues on a sugar rush.
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Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
An unfortunate decision, but hopefully they won't take it too far. The Warlock/Hunter models are terrible, and he did indicate that KJC may be too much. Here's hoping they can make the playstyle fun without making Mages cast while running around like rogues on a sugar rush.


+1 for sure. While casting on the move sounds like a good idea, I think it would be similar to Lhivera's analogy. LIke I said, I'd rather have some effective tools to keep my distance and cast.
I'm really disappointed that they are changing their mind on this. Minimizing your movement and being smart about how you move and DPS was compelling and interesting in my opinion. KJC is definitely over the top and I'd hate to see something similar on mages.
Guess I'm in the minority here, but I rather like having the option of mobile casting. However it should come at a price to damage so that it is not OP; a 40-50% "movement tax" would not be an unreasonable way of offsetting the advantages of mobility. The Fireball/Scorch arrangement is a pretty good compromise that more or less achieves this effect and could potentially be applied to other static casting classes (I know Shadow Priests have been advocating for mobile Mind Flay for a while).

If however, Blizz did decide to wind back the mobility of casters, I think they would need to also rethink some of the fight designs. Fights like Tortos, where you are moving almost constantly, are just horrible for classes like Mage or Shadow Priest, who need to stand still to DPS effectively. If casters are going to be expected to turret, then fight design has to allow them the opportunity to do so.


We already have mobile casting "at a price" with scorch. I hope it doesnt go further than that, IMO.

Of course they would take into consideration fight mechanics if they nailed us down some more. Although, not every fight has to be caster friendly. Tortos sucks for us as it is right now, yet we still manage to get thru it. It'll be fine. :-)
Im a big fan of Frost's means for movement, and would like to see Scorch go for fire, assuming KJC and Hunter's ability to always DPS on the move was taken out. Managing movement with blink/instants/Ice Floes/Blazing Speed are fun to me, scorch spamming isn't.
An unfortunate decision, but hopefully they won't take it too far. The Warlock/Hunter models are terrible, and he did indicate that KJC may be too much. Here's hoping they can make the playstyle fun without making Mages cast while running around like rogues on a sugar rush.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium


Turret casting is terrible and one of the main reasons I rerolled.

This belated recognition by GC shouldn't surprise anybody who is actually playing the game and familiar with modern encounter design. The game has simply evolved beyond what it was in 2005 where you could plant your feet and cast with assurance. That just doesn't happen much anymore.
05/27/2013 09:54 PMPosted by Blinkdog
Guess I'm in the minority here, but I rather like having the option of mobile casting. However it should come at a price to damage so that it is not OP; a 40-50% "movement tax" would not be an unreasonable way of offsetting the advantages of mobility.


I don't disagree with that. I want Mages (and other ranged) to prefer standing still, and a significant reduction in DPS while moving accomplishes that. My preferred design would have us deal poor damage while moving, and over-the-top damage while standing still, with different degrees for different specs.

Part of the problem is that the mingling of PvE and PvP makes the "over-the-top" part unacceptable. If Mages could deal 150% of the damage everybody else deals when we're standing still, Mage players would be a lot more willing to accept doing 60-70% the damage of everybody else while moving. But they can't let that happen for PvP reasons, apparently. It's very irritating.

________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Here's hoping they can make the playstyle fun without making Mages cast while running around like rogues on a sugar rush.


Have you seen recent encounter design? *Everyone* has to run around like they're on a sugar rush. Frequently. All fight long in some cases. Any caster that was designed around only reaching their full DPS by standing still would be horribly nonviable on half the tier. Healers that are designed to stand still and cast -- or worse, use spells that depend on the TARGET standing still -- are having a lot of trouble this expansion.

Class design and encounter design have to work together -- in order to have classes that want to stand still, you need encounters where standing still isn't going to kill you.

Maybe the supreme importance of movement this expansion was intended to showcase monks, and they're going to back off a little in 6.x. I dunno. But if they don't, then they can't go back to heavy movement penalties without wrecking the specs they apply to.
It's a necessary change in design direction. The game has simply evolved to a point where standing still is no longer an option even on the PVE side.

Raids are vastly different from the vanilla/TBC days.
05/28/2013 06:01 AMPosted by Calonderiel
Here's hoping they can make the playstyle fun without making Mages cast while running around like rogues on a sugar rush.


Have you seen recent encounter design? *Everyone* has to run around like they're on a sugar rush. Frequently. All fight long in some cases. Any caster that was designed around only reaching their full DPS by standing still would be horribly nonviable on half the tier. Healers that are designed to stand still and cast -- or worse, use spells that depend on the TARGET standing still -- are having a lot of trouble this expansion.

Class design and encounter design have to work together -- in order to have classes that want to stand still, you need encounters where standing still isn't going to kill you.

Maybe the supreme importance of movement this expansion was intended to showcase monks, and they're going to back off a little in 6.x. I dunno. But if they don't, then they can't go back to heavy movement penalties without wrecking the specs they apply to.


Not even raids, you can look at non-raid encounters for the same indicators. All designed around mobile dps.

I.e. look how long it took Mages to start killing Battletron post-health boost compared to melee classes.
05/28/2013 05:03 AMPosted by Lhivera
My preferred design


You mean the same DnD trope for the last 30 years. At what point do you evolve?
Have you seen recent encounter design? *Everyone* has to run around like they're on a sugar rush.

This, I disagree with. Most of the time, there are safe zones that you can position yourself in to retain your "turret-ness." This isn't to say that movement isn't a big part of this tier, but just to say that movement isn't nearly as big of a problem as people try to claim it is. I think it just takes time to get used to the fights before you can actually choose the spots to remain still in.

05/28/2013 06:01 AMPosted by Calonderiel
Healers that are designed to stand still and cast -- or worse, use spells that depend on the TARGET standing still -- are having a lot of trouble this expansion.

I've noticed this too. As a DPS, I find it fairly easy to position myself in an AoE heal on the ground. But most of the time, I see everyone running away from them.
Lhiv isn't going to get this until he steps into one of the new raids. ToT in particular. Yes, even in LFR.

This ain't no Molten Bore anymore.

Turret casting is dead, dead, dead. The pace of the game is accelerating and Blizzard is positively in love with making everybody move around near constantly.
Lhiv isn't going to get this until he steps into one of the new raids. ToT in particular. Yes, even in LFR.

This ain't no Molten Bore anymore.

Turret casting is dead, dead, dead. The pace of the game is accelerating and Blizzard is positively in love with making everybody move around near constantly.


Seriously. I listened to Lhiv when MoP was in beta and he attempted to find a unified voice. The unified voice is now quite different than his antiquated vision of what mages "should" be.
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I don't disagree with that. I want Mages (and other ranged) to prefer standing still, and a significant reduction in DPS while moving accomplishes that. My preferred design would have us deal poor damage while moving, and over-the-top damage while standing still, with different degrees for different specs.

Part of the problem is that the mingling of PvE and PvP makes the "over-the-top" part unacceptable. If Mages could deal 150% of the damage everybody else deals when we're standing still, Mage players would be a lot more willing to accept doing 60-70% the damage of everybody else while moving. But they can't let that happen for PvP reasons, apparently. It's very irritating.

When most of the encounters allowed for you to stand still for more than 10 seconds at a time, sure this was a viable option. However, I spend pretty much every single encounter running all over the place while still trying to be competitive versus all the ranged DPS and melee DPS with better movement mechanics. At this point, there's no such thing as a fight that doesn't require moving. Back in TBC and Vanilla, there were some raid encounters where I could get away with spending entire fights with my face pressed up against a wall ignoring mechanics entirely watching a bunch of health bars and not even really paying attention to anything else around me. If I tried that now, there is a high probability that I'd die within the first 30 seconds of any encounter.

I'd be perfectly happy to prefer standing still in my raids if any encounter allowed for that as a viable play style option for any length of time. Either they have to make movement DPS not a significant weakness, or they need to make movement DPS not a requirement to succeed in the raid encounters they design. One or the other - either maintaining high movement DPS can be a requirement for encounters, or they can have classes that are "rooted" in place at range. Not having movement DPS at this point just makes you a liability to your raid and not worth taking over classes that are actually designed to succeed in raid encounters.

It's a problem of encounter design at this point and the arms race to include as many possible ground-targeting mechanics that force you to move around in each encounter. The idea of stand-still damage at this point is outdated in WOW raiding and getting progressively more outdated every tier.
Frankly, that's not a class design problem, it's an encounter design problem. Rather than breaking the turret caster as a viable design, they should stop overusing movement as an encounter mechanic.

I recognize that some people find it fun to run around like crazed toddlers while casting, and sure, they should have some spec options. But there should also be room for the dignified, calculating, artillery caster design, and if encounter design doesn't allow for that, it's the encounter designs, not the spec designs, that are broken.

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