Regarding Prot Paladin Changes for 5.4

Paladin
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Seal of Insight Mana Regen - This needs to be reverted or other changes made to compensate. With no haste our mana regen is still negative. It will take a while to OOM but it will still happen. We need to be able to run our base rotation for at least 12 minutes without OOMing for the long fights. Furthermore, if we use Reckoning or Rebuke (Our taunt and interrupt) we will run out of mana sooner. If we throw in a couple Cleanses we'll be screwed even more. Paladin Utility due to things like Cleanse and Hands should be viable for us to use. Hasted builds which are the current gearing for Prot Paladins will become non sustainable due to mana consumption. Even if we had zero haste we'd still OOM eventually, and during Heroism/Bloodlust we're going to OOM really fast (haste geared or not).

Battle Healer - Firstoff, its not OP like some of the crybabies are screaming. In anything but the most server circumstances Battle Healer does less healing than Bloodworms or Ox Statue. An extreme situation would be: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wjsn1x818m069qwe/sum/healingDone/?s=2543&e=3025. This is probably one of the most extreme possible cases. I did 1.34M DPS. Battle Healer: 36.7M healing, Bloodworms: 27.3M healing. Bloodworms will also always put out that much healing regardless of vengeance since its based on the DK's health. Here is a more normal situation: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/2pigf2oysk447w4c/sum/healingDone/?s=2770&e=3461. Battle Healer: 3.76M healing, Bloodworms: 4.20M healing, Ox Statue: 5.56M healing. Bloodworms beat Battle Healer even though Bloodworms did more effective healing with 95% overheal than Battle Healer did with only 66% overheal. Ox Statue had 33% overheal. The difference is that Battle Healer scales up with vengeance (DPS), but it takes some pretty extreme DPS to overcome the healing from Blood Worms/Ox Statue which are baseline for those specs. The Ox Statue has its own limiter in place in that the stronger the shields will be the more DPS the Monk needs to put out to get them to proc. So if Monks and DKs can bring that much raid healing, why is Battle Healer considered OP? Is it because its a Glyph? I don't know what Druids bring to the table but Warriors have Rallying Cry and their Banners, which are far more potent in some cases. So much so I've tried to keep 3+ Warriors in my raids.

As for the new version of the Glyph. It has the potential to do far more raid healing than the current Battle Healer. SoI healing is mostly overheal on the tank and if fully effective will do more than Battle Healer could.

As for interesting choice. Its not a choice. Its kinda like how Blizzard insists LFR and Dailies are optional, when they aren't. its like saying here you can have Jessica Alba, or Rosie O'donnell.

This is how Prot Paladin seals have been this xpac. No choices, Blizzard dictates which you will use. Seal of Truth was nerfed to do 80% less damage for Prot, or nearly no damage. When we had the choice, most Paladins chose Seal of Truth (even though the haste paradigm would have eventually caused issues with that). At 20% damage, its not a choice anymore. The damage gained is nowhere near the surviviability loss, which isn't that huge. If this version of Battle Healer goes in, there will once again be no choice. As a smart heal on the raid, it has far more value that the massive overhealing on myself. Yes, there is a choice, but its not a good one. The majority of my self healing comes from Sacred Shield, not SoI. Its not trivial. Its about a 40% loss in my self healing, if I get none of it. 40k to 50k smart heals on the raid every ~2 seconds or so is worth more than just on me. Some of it will come to me also unless its forcibly made not to choose me. If there is no raid damage, it will come to me anyways and to my cotank when i'm offtanking. To me its a no brainer, hence not a choice again. Also, please make it so it is smart enough not to heal pets, especially temp pets.

Grand Crusader - This change is rather miniscule and won't have much impact. However, it should be a bit higher. It will be a slight loss in damage/HoPo when actively tanking and a 100% loss when not. It should be the same or stronger when tanking to compensate for the total loss when not actively tanking.

Paladin Tank DPS - Why do people think haste tanking is OP? Our DPS isn't that insane. Look at the top parses for the mostly single target fights (where you can't skew it with AoE DPS). The top parses for the tank classes don't have Paladins at the top. One would think with 35-40% haste we should be at least 20-30% higher than other tanks if its so good....


More people, mainly some blizz employees responsible for the nerfs... need to see this. It's all blown out of proportion, and we're getting our class, quite literally, destroyed for it. I woke up today, saw these nerfs, and immediately felt sick. If anything, I am on par with my co-tank, and losing the haste will not only apply these effects you mentioned, but make it damn near impossible to even hold threat!

I'm sorry I'm just... ugh... disgusted. I'm always willing to do what my raid needs me to do. I was ret, went prot for us when we lost a tank (and personally, i fell in love with it), and then geared up holy just in case.... but with these changes, I'm likely to outright tell my guild to replace me.
Whelp, if Prot gets nerfed, hello Retribution?
Yeah they've said that multiple times. They claimed they actually liked it. But they already tried to nerf our GC proc to be by avoidance alone and the community went pretty crazy, so they changed it to what it currently is, yet they're trying to do it again. Not only is the SoI nerf a kick in the balls, but with GC only being from avoidance, that means if the other tank taunts off of us due to stacks or something in a fight, we get 0 procs of GC since we're not actively avoiding anything. All this is going to do is, if there are any adds on a fight, prot paladins are going to want the dps to avoid killing them if possible, that way we can get GC procs out the !@# to increase our damage on the boss. Blizzard just needs to Change SoI to return no mana to holy only since I feel that's the only reason they're nerfing it, and leave the change to the battle healer glyph, but not touch GC.


Personally, I can understand the GC proc nerf. That is a good enoguh reason to pick that piece of hit/parry piece over the haste/crit piece. (see my shoulders). But leave the nerfs there. First of all, we NEED the mana, and I'm 90% sure they will fix that for prot before live. Second of all, as pointed out above, the healing was not OP, and a part of our package, and needs to stay. In an off tnak situation, You dont need the GC procs. With glyph of focused shield, i find that a proc and crit with this usually puts me to the edge of pulling threat and i need to hold back anyway.

Whelp, if Prot gets nerfed, hello Retribution?


Remember, we wont have the awesome t15 4piece to keep us on par. IDK if t16 4piece will be all that good.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9422973464?page=2#21

This is a great post by Branar discussing the possible changes to Battle Healer/SoI heals. If his assumptions play out, its not a nerf, its a HUGE FREAKING buff to our raid utility.

The mana regen is a potential game changer for haste tanking(and Ret DSP), Grand Crusader changes are less shocking, but still impactful. Having to gear to keep from going OOM is bad design, been there, done that. 18% buff to proc rate on dodge/parry is good, except that we DON'T WANT dodge parry gear, for either pally build.

ONCE AGAIN, Ghost Crawler's pally hate has come to bear. If he'd stop getting drunk on mage tears and listen to the pally tanking community, he'd see that we REALLY like AM with haste! This seemingly insistent push to use "Tank" gear is the Devs failing to adapt with the community and do AM for ALL classes like they have for BrM. Unless there are some pending changes to the DR for dodge/parry that have not been discussed, I think we are looking at the effective breaking of pally tanking for the next patch.

@yeps - WTF!?! I DIDN'T EVEN THINK OF THAT!!! ERMAGERD!?!?! PROT PVP IS BROKEN!?!?
There's no reason to get all upset over the mana issue, they're not going to 'break' any tank this late in the game. They won't do it. I can 100% guarantee that. This is probably the first iteration of something that hasn't fully come down to the PTR build yet, we should watch carefully, YES, but it's not 'drop the heavens on us' bad.

And remember, they (blizz, and blue posters) respond better to math, and logic than OMG SOMETHING BAD HAPPENED THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER.
Blizzard just needs to Change SoI to return no mana to holy only since I feel that's the only reason they're nerfing it, and leave the change to the battle healer glyph, but not touch GC.


Even though I agree the SoI nerf is targeted torward Holy paladins; I feel that this nerf will negate the one aspect of Holy that separates the better Holy paladins from the bad. Just like how keeping Inquisition up for ret determines how better paladins do better dps than paladins who don't. Or to a more similar extent; how resto shamans who never make sure water shield stays up to manage mana - Holy paladins that find the opportunity to melee their mana back has always been one of the defining skills that determine which Holy paladins are better IMO. FYI, this nerf does not balance out the buff that was done to Divine Plea from having no healing penalty.

So now, SoI is only a 10% haste buff to Holy...... how exciting.
Blizzard should not change the whole pali world on the last patch of the expansion.
I consider myself lucky that i always carried two sets one mastery tank which i turned to haste and one ret, so if does go crazy i have alot of gear to choose from. But what about all the tanks that have only one set of gear thats haste they have been using this whole expansion that may (and i dont know if it would be) useless. Now they have to spend the a great deal of time and coin re-gearing reforging for one patch. I get what bliz maybe trying to do but they should wait till the next expansion to do it. My thoughts anyway.
This is far too drastic a change to be happening at this point of the expansion. As a 7 year vet, and long time pally tank, I can say that the haste build for prot was one of the most interactive, fast paced, and enjoyable tanking play styles to ever exist in this game. If blizz feels as though the haste build is getting out of hand or becoming too OP, there's a lot of changes that could be made (for example changing the base damage reduction of shield of the righteous, adjusting our defensive cooldowns etc) without breaking the play style. Should these three changes make it to live, I no longer see a reason to play anymore.
Blizzard should not change the whole pali world on the last patch of the expansion.

They're not. The Battle Healer nerf is a nerf, yes. The GC change is going to be just like what happened the last time it changed: practically unnoticeable most of the time. The Seal of Insight change is irrelevant since Blizzard is buffing Prot's base regen to compensate.

Overall it's not a significant set of changes, certainly not on a "changing the whole world" level.
Interrupts has become an important duty for tanks since the Cataclysm. And now I’m already used to interrupting my target. Now, you want me to stop interrupting my target just because as a tank I will OOM? This mana regain change will not stop protection paladins stack haste, it will only let them remove their Rebuke, Consecration, Holy Wrath or even Holy Prism and Hammer of Justice away from their action bars.
Yes, Blizzard is going to purposefully make you OOM while going through a normal rotation.

/sarcasm

They've already stated if prot paladins are having mana issues they'll buff Guarded By the Light.
Some Blue responses here about the issue:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9423553519#1


Paladin Tank DPS - Why do people think haste tanking is OP? Our DPS isn't that insane. Look at the top parses for the mostly single target fights (where you can't skew it with AoE DPS). The top parses for the tank classes don't have Paladins at the top. One would think with 35-40% haste we should be at least 20-30% higher than other tanks if its so good....

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/100/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000011111000000

You are a down syndrome baby if you think prot pallies aren't OP along with Monks.


Much better break down on 10 man: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/100/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000011111000000

Warriors just need a buff.

Some Blue responses here about the issue:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9423553519#1


Also, yay \o/, maybe people can stop being all chicken little about this.
07/09/2013 05:19 PMPosted by Keten
Blizzard should not change the whole pali world on the last patch of the expansion.

They're not. The Battle Healer nerf is a nerf, yes. The GC change is going to be just like what happened the last time it changed: practically unnoticeable most of the time. The Seal of Insight change is irrelevant since Blizzard is buffing Prot's base regen to compensate.

Overall it's not a significant set of changes, certainly not on a "changing the whole world" level.


Keten where are you seeing a buff to Prots base regen to compensate? Im not seeing that anywhere, if they are that changing things but all im seeing is a straight nerf. And i hope they do something like that but if Tanks end up having to switch from straight haste, to haste mastery 50/50 or something else re gemming, and spends several k in gold to become viable again, i think that's a pretty big unwarranted change for us.
07/09/2013 07:14 PMPosted by Tarlon

They're not. The Battle Healer nerf is a nerf, yes. The GC change is going to be just like what happened the last time it changed: practically unnoticeable most of the time. The Seal of Insight change is irrelevant since Blizzard is buffing Prot's base regen to compensate.

Overall it's not a significant set of changes, certainly not on a "changing the whole world" level.


Keten where are you seeing a buff to Prots base regen to compensate? Im not seeing that anywhere, if they are that changing things but all im seeing is a straight nerf. And i hope they do something like that but if Tanks end up having to switch from straight haste, to haste mastery 50/50 or something else re gemming, and spends several k in gold to become viable again, i think that's a pretty big unwarranted change for us.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9423553519#1

Lore's response('s).
07/09/2013 07:14 PMPosted by Tarlon
Im not seeing that anywhere, if they are that changing things but all im seeing is a straight nerf.


Lore confirmed GbtL will be buffed to 10% base mana instead of 6% which is enough to cover 50% Haste with a full rotation (3k/sec mana given, 2.7k/sec required) and 50% is the first soft cap anyhow. After that, you should be stacking mastery.
Why is everyone fretting about mana? I never have a mana issue, and I've never even used SoI before as a tank (at least not recently). We're given a HUGE mana regen rate as a passive early on, and even when I was running Molten Core for rep and had that double-mana-cost curse thing on me I rarely struggled with mana.

From what I've read, the people at Blizz don't want prot pallies to just ignore dodge and parry like a lot of haste-tanks seem to do, which seems reasonable to me. The only problem I see is that, if you go the haste route, you pretty much NEED to in order to get any sort of significant boost to your haste. I just regemming and respeccing and I still only got to, like, 4.35 cooldown.

Also, to those who say SoI just needs to not restore mana for Healadains - aka the one spec that really really needs mana - shame on you. Go sit in the corner and think about what you've said.
Found it thanks guys i usually check MMO didnt see this forum!!!
Lore



Community Manager








The Seal of Insight change is not intended as a Protection nerf, or to make haste less attractive. In fact, the change is being made because of a Holy concern. Although Seal of Insight does benefit from haste, the stat’s real value for Protection comes from Sanctity of Battle. Regardless, we will be making adjustments to make sure Protection doesn’t start having mana issues. Current thinking is to increase the mana gain from Guarded by the Light to 10%.

Glyph of the Battle Healer was something we had originally intended to allow Holy to adopt a “melee healer” playstyle, but as class design changes shifted Protection towards using Seal of Insight primarily, it has become both mandatory and overpowered. It’s just significantly stronger than a glyph should be. We think that the redesign will still allow it to be useful for Protection, but much more situationally, which is fine.

The Grand Crusader changes are indeed intended to make avoidance more attractive. The goal isn’t to nerf haste; as I mentioned, Sanctity of Battle is where the majority of haste’s value lies (along with other secondary benefits such as its interaction with Sacred Shield). However, we’ve seen overwhelming feedback that dodge and parry feel like wasted stats to Paladin tanks. It’s fine if you still prefer haste over avoidance, but we still intend to put avoidance on plate tanking gear, and we don’t want you to feel like those stats don’t benefit you when you get them.

We are paying careful attention to your feedback while we work through these changes. Please keep in mind that specific feedback regarding what exactly your concerns are about the changes is significantly more useful to us than sweeping generalizations. Thanks :)
Does the passive that gives 6% mana every 2 sec not enough?

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