Regarding Prot Paladin Changes for 5.4

Paladin
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07/10/2013 12:38 PMPosted by Berith
-We are broken. Stop trying to deny it.


We're fine.


You keep telling yourself that.


We're fine.


You keep telling yourself that.


I even pointed out your "points" and why they aren't point. Drama queen much ? Flag a few debuffs to prevent DS/HoP from removing them and cap vengeance (which they are doing) and all our "brokeness" goes away.

We're in a very good spot now, the encounter design team just needs to adjust themselves to our abilities so that we can't cheese stuff like we do in ToT.

the 4 piece set tier in 5.4 for prot doesn't look too appealing either, but I main Ret so :o


Free 3 BoG WoG followed by SotR right away ? Uh... yeah, not appealing at all.
I never mentioned clearing debuffs. Not once that is all you. That is a fail design by the devs and not the fault of paladins for using it.

Vengeance is already capped. It was hotfixed after a level 80 exploited it. The 30/50% cap doesn't fix the vengeance issue because outside of maybe heroic LS and RD no one will ever see the cap. The way vengeance is now is that it encourages paladins to intentionally take damage from fire etc to boost their numbers. It's fun, but wrong.

I've loved tanking this expansion more than ever but we as prot paladins are out of balance. I don't think heavy nerfs are in order but our vengeance scaling and sacred shield definitely need to be looked at. We simply should not be the best tanks in every category. I've fought the good fight against getting nerfed but some changes are necessary to both Prot Paladins and Brewmasters. They need to bring us down a notch or two and buff Prot warriors because they are awful right now in the DPS category.

If you don't believe that we are extremely strong across the board then you are simply not being fair.
The 30/50% cap doesn't fix the vengeance issue because outside of maybe heroic LS and RD no one will ever see the cap


Normal tortos, I break through the 30% cap easy.

07/10/2013 01:17 PMPosted by Tavine
we as prot paladins are out of balance.


Again, not because [b]WE[/b] are broken. Bolded for emphasis.

07/10/2013 01:17 PMPosted by Tavine
I don't think heavy nerfs are in order but our vengeance scaling and sacred shield definitely need to be looked at.


I will reiterate : vengeance cap.

07/10/2013 01:17 PMPosted by Tavine
We simply should not be the best tanks in every category.


Good thing we aren't then.
Heroic raiders will disagree with you.
Heroic raiders will disagree with you.


They won't, but then again, they'll know what is broken, which is what I pointed out to you. Vengeance stacking too high, and debuffs improperly flagged in ToT. Both of which have nothing to do with Paladins themselves.


Also, yay \o/, maybe people can stop being all chicken little about this.


That would be me, and yeah that post solves all my worries.
There's no reason to get all upset over the mana issue, they're not going to 'break' any tank this late in the game. They won't do it. I can 100% guarantee that. This is probably the first iteration of something that hasn't fully come down to the PTR build yet, we should watch carefully, YES, but it's not 'drop the heavens on us' bad.

And remember, they (blizz, and blue posters) respond better to math, and logic than OMG SOMETHING BAD HAPPENED THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER.


And my have their Numbers been so accurate when applying it to balance. Maybe time to get a math tutor!
I never mentioned clearing debuffs. Not once that is all you. That is a fail design by the devs and not the fault of paladins for using it.

Vengeance is already capped. It was hotfixed after a level 80 exploited it. The 30/50% cap doesn't fix the vengeance issue because outside of maybe heroic LS and RD no one will ever see the cap. The way vengeance is now is that it encourages paladins to intentionally take damage from fire etc to boost their numbers. It's fun, but wrong.

I've loved tanking this expansion more than ever but we as prot paladins are out of balance. I don't think heavy nerfs are in order but our vengeance scaling and sacred shield definitely need to be looked at. We simply should not be the best tanks in every category. I've fought the good fight against getting nerfed but some changes are necessary to both Prot Paladins and Brewmasters. They need to bring us down a notch or two and buff Prot warriors because they are awful right now in the DPS category.

If you don't believe that we are extremely strong across the board then you are simply not being fair.


This is to hurt pvp imo where we are already not of any significance compared to the other 2 tanks. And if they want to take prot paladins out of pvp they need to do it toall the other classes. PVE meh what ever I am sure we do well there but pvp or getting ganked in the world we are near the bottom especially for a survivability class every class/spec should be able to defend and beat another class/spec in this game. Giving heals to classes that are not healer based was the worse decision that has ever been made in this game it makes no sense. Just look at healing in bg's Dk's and warriors can be in the top 3 to 4 on heals at the end of a long fight how is that normal plus the top of damage aswell. This is why healers and some tanks cannot 1 v 1 successfully against classes like warriors and Dk's in blood presence. They did fine before massive and passive heals were given to them I remember wrath where both classes held their own easily.
Plenty of Non Haste tank plate has dropped and been DE'd in our group (we have Pally & monk tank)

our pally tank has to think twice about passing on dodge loot now lulz.

At least he will have a ret set to kick off 5.4 with.
our pally tank has to think twice about passing on dodge loot now lulz.


No, really, the GC change means nothing. Parry from strength is enough to proc it with a 30% proc rate.
They are buffing mana return for paladin tanks which is good. But anyhow I thought this was a fuss over nothing. Surely using your tank abilities are designed to return more mana than you can use, even if you use Seal of Truth and have high haste. Or did someone run some simulations and found that high haste tanks would have gone oom from tank rotation?
Moo.
They are buffing mana return for paladin tanks which is good. But anyhow I thought this was a fuss over nothing. Surely using your tank abilities are designed to return more mana than you can use, even if you use Seal of Truth and have high haste. Or did someone run some simulations and found that high haste tanks would have gone oom from tank rotation?


No need for simulations, people did it on target dummies, running very simple rotations.
Even with the buff to Guarded by the Light returning 15% of mana every 2 seconds instead of 6%?
Even with the buff to Guarded by the Light returning 15% of mana every 2 seconds instead of 6%?

You need to check the date on posts. This was before that change was added to the PTR.
I think the developers of this game seriously need to reconsider the mana nerf to paladin tanks. There should be some other mechanic that gives melee paladins back mana other than judgement/built-in regeneration. This is nothing more than the developers giving paladins the short thrift "again". And I for one am personally sick and tired of having to wait between for months on end between content patches because the designers at Blizzard can't get this class nailed down. I believe that Blizzard's track record with the Paladin to be nothing more than irresponsible, juvenile, and reprehensible. I certainly think toning down the healing output from Seal of Insight to be a good fix because I would rather be balanced around mitigation and dps that mitigation, dps and healing. However, I certainly think that Blizzard needs to go back to the drawing board on the mana returns from Seal of Insight, or add-in a mechanic where melee paladins get decent damage and mana return for the other seals as well. This is clearly bad design on the part of Blizzard, and needs to be addressed in a fashion that is not going to make prot tanking to be a bunch of waiting as our mana comes back. DPS hate being throttled and so do tanks. So Blizzard take this back to the drawing board and try again.
Question, for those who know of or plays a prot pally, does anyone here know if they're getting nerfed around 70's bracket. If you may or may not know already, they literally 1 shot everything with their Shield Throw or whatever it's called. It's incredibly ridiculous and not only that but Add PVP Power and Buffs to it, not only are you an unstoppable killing machine, but you also have your heals/shields. I'm not complaining about the heals and shields, but the dmg on that shield ability is just compeltely stupid and overpowered.
Yes blizz Plz take a look into this then redesign Prot Paladin's around lvl 70 pvp so we can make sure this doesnt happen again....

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