Flex Raidings Poison Pill

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You DPS is only X. Although that had nothing to due with why we wiped we are kickinganyways. This is a sign of a horrible raid leader and you should be thankful he outright let you know that he's bad at his job. You should be thanking him for removing you.


You are right.
I don't really see a problem with having a test to see how good/bad players are. Especially with how easy it is now to just buy runs. Will help weed out bad apps for guilds, too.
I don't see much difference between "forming _________ PUG, PST with GS and achieve," and "forming ___________ PUG, endless only, PST with GS and achieve."
07/19/2013 01:14 PMPosted by Brialam
I have to say, Proving Grounds doesn't sound interesting at all. I would rather raiders learn skills in a raiding or dungeon setting where they work as a part of a team, not solo play.

A lot of players would like a chance to get at least the basic mechanics of their tanking & healing down on their own, without other players yelling at them. Providing this non-threatening way to get started doesn't take away any training opportunities that existed before (they're all still there), but does add a new stepping stone that will be a relief & blessing to many


Agreed.

Proving Grounds are basically advanced Practice Dummies that healers and tanks can partake of as well.

Until now, the only way to learn how to tank was to either get carried by guildmates, or jump into a PUG with 4 strangers yelling at you for not knowing everything there is to know about the dungeon and your particular class/role.

Now you can jump into PG, which throws various scenarios and boss encounter mechanics at you. The farther you get, the harder it gets. Get to the highest level and you are totally prepared for running dungeons(minus having mouth breathers yell at you).
I suspect that the OP might be correct, raid invites and what not is possibly gonna depend on what grade you have on the proving grounds. you wanna know why? because about half this comminuty are total dycks and elitests , tbh Iwhen I said op might be correct, saying this is making me lean waay towards the op being correct
I don't really see a problem with having a test to see how good/bad players are. Especially with how easy it is now to just buy runs. Will help weed out bad apps for guilds, too.

I know one thing for sure: one of the first things I'm going to do when this hits is go do Proving Grounds. I want to see how I stack up against what Blizzard thinks I should be capable of on my main, rather than the usual bunch of players. Yeah, I know it's not intended to be something like that, but still.
No you're 100% wrong OP - no one checks your brawler's guild rank and no one will care about your proving ground rank. They're just solo things to do with achievements. Is this topic even serious because this is silly.

Now I am not a part of PTR and have not seen how the system works but Blizzard needs to be very careful about how they implement this.


Then don't make a topic or comment on it since you're obviously ignorant about it. Flex raiding is a step over LFR but it's still under the "not serious" raiding category except now you get to play with people above LFR level.
The complaints about it driving a wedge into the community are ridiculous, plain and simple. If not this, having beaten X boss would be used, or using Y ilvl (hello GearScore), or some random Achievement, or being in the "right" guild, or being the "right" class, or or or...

Literally nothing is stopping people from judging you prematurely based upon whatever erroneous logic they choose. Making achievements, extra methods of character progression, new gear, new anything could be said that "Oh man, here comes another way for elitists to be elitist to everyone... QQ." That includes the upcoming Siege of Orgrimmar, that includes additional fights in Brawler's Guild, that includes the final Legendary cloak, that includes... everything that is new and not instantly handed to you from now until the end of time. What's that? You don't have 600+ battle pets collected?! NOOB!!

Don't be silly, and don't buy into the stupidity of others making ridiculous requirements, they are not indicative of the entirety of the community.

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Flex Raids certainly make PuG raiding more accessible, especially since Achievements can be done through them. I fully expect groups of higher end Raiders to make some coin by offering limited spots to carry folks through for SoO mounts, especially since a full raid team of 10 folks can easily take on 3-4 more without worrying about filling further.

I'm greatly looking forward to both Proving Grounds and Flex Raiding, should be a blast.
I suspect that the OP might be correct, raid invites and what not is possibly gonna depend on what grade you have on the proving grounds. you wanna know why? because about half this comminuty are total ^%#@ and elitests , tbh Iwhen I said op might be correct, saying this is making me lean waay towards the op being correct


Ensuring a group is composed of competent players (with game knowledge and proper gear) that will not cause a lot of undue stress or a waste of time is not something I would consider elitist. I'd consider that good sense.

If someone isn't great at the game Proving Grounds can actually provide some goals to achieve, in a private setting, so that they can attempt to improve. Knowing that you have room to improve and being able to mark that improvement is a very positive thing for that player, and the future groups they join.
No you're 100% wrong OP - no one checks your brawler's guild rank and no one will care about your proving ground rank. They're just solo things to do with achievements. Is this topic even serious because this is silly.

Now I am not a part of PTR and have not seen how the system works but Blizzard needs to be very careful about how they implement this.


Then don't make a topic or comment on it since you're obviously ignorant about it. Flex raiding is a step over LFR but it's still under the "not serious" raiding category except now you get to play with people above LFR level.


what the hell does the brawlers guild have to do with anything? that has nothing to do with how you know your class? to get passed those bosses you just need to be overgeared

Very loosely if you can get Bronze in Proving Grounds you're good for Heroic dungeons, if you can get Silver you're good for LFR, and if you can do Gold you're going to probably be able to handle Flex/Normal - if you can get Gold you're probably not a liability to pick up for a Normal.


Totally wrong, Bashiok, unless you're talking about some as-of-yet-unreleased version of Proving Grounds. Right now, Bronze, Silver and Gold only demontrate you're good for Heroic dungeons, period. Not LFR. And most definitely not Flex/Normal.

Tank Proving Grounds teach you to taunt everything. Well, even in LFR with watered-down mechanics if you taunt at the wrong time, you will die or wipe the group. In Normal it's even more important to know how to taunt when a debuff goes on the other tank or fall off yourself. This is not taught so even Gold level experience is insufficient for anything but a dungeon.

Healer Proving Grounds only gives you a single party. There's no need to coordinate raid cooldowns with other healers, or manage mana over the course of a raid boss encounter, or triage heals outside your group. There's no need to worry about placement for area heals, or the target for centered heals. What good is a Gold level healer that goes oom as soon as they have 5x the people to try and heal in LFR?

DPS Proving Grounds also right now doesn't put any emphasis on survival. No need to use personal survival cooldowns. No need to worry about timing cooldowns for heroism/burst phases. Not even a real need to avoid the fire. Not to mention it doesn't warn them about frontal cones or explain the reason they DPS from behind. A dead DPS does no DPS and so even a Gold Proving Ground DPS isn't worth anything if they step into LFR and die.

I appreciate what you are saying, asking for Proving Grounds performance is no more ridiculous than people demanding ilvl 510 people for ilvl 496 content but, I can definitely say that Proving Grounds has really nothing to do with showing "you're probably not a liability to pick up for a Normal." Because yes, you would be.


I don't think you really understood the context of what was being said. Proving Grounds, for now, is not there to hold your hand through every type of encounter. It's there to get you used to the tools you'd need to tank with. So if it teaches you how to properly handle AoE and to use a taunt once in a while, it's exposing the player to their abilities and what they do. It's not teaching you any specific fight mechanic.

I'd hope you'd rather the player learn, than the game just hold their hand through everything that would potentially influence individual thought.
what the hell does the brawlers guild have to do with anything? that has nothing to do with how you know your class? to get passed those bosses you just need to be overgeared


Solo <- read that and then read it again. What's proving grounds: Solo. And no you don't have to be overgeared - you just have to meet the berserk timer.
07/19/2013 01:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
I suspect that the OP might be correct, raid invites and what not is possibly gonna depend on what grade you have on the proving grounds. you wanna know why? because about half this comminuty are total ^%#@ and elitests , tbh Iwhen I said op might be correct, saying this is making me lean waay towards the op being correct


Ensuring a group is composed of competent players (with game knowledge and proper gear) that will not cause a lot of undue stress or a waste of time is not something I would consider elitist. I'd consider that good sense.

If someone isn't great at the game Proving Grounds can actually provide some goals to achieve, in a private setting, so that they can attempt to improve. Knowing that you have room to improve and being able to mark that improvement is a very positive thing for that player, and the future groups they join.


have you seen the people of this game play? and how they act? they will kick you from a raid or dungeon group if you mess up just once, and sometimes it wasent even your fault. this is the community that WoW has and will stay that way until people learn to be kinder and gentle to those that want to better themselves
what the hell does the brawlers guild have to do with anything? that has nothing to do with how you know your class? to get passed those bosses you just need to be overgeared


Good players need less gear. Bad players need more gear. How much gear do you need?

have you seen the people of this game play? and how they act? they will kick you from a raid or dungeon group if you mess up just once, and sometimes it wasent even your fault. this is the community that WoW has and will stay that way until people learn to be kinder and gentle to those that want to better themselves


People who want to get better will get better within a day or two, this game is simple. What's remaining is that we have people who have the attitudes of " DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY" or "this is my $15/month".

I have no issues excluding those players from groups.
I suspect that the OP might be correct, raid invites and what not is possibly gonna depend on what grade you have on the proving grounds. you wanna know why? because about half this comminuty are total dycks and elitests , tbh Iwhen I said op might be correct, saying this is making me lean waay towards the op being correct

Except the proving grounds themselves are not exclusive. You're free to solo it any time the game is up. If your first try indicates you have something to work on, you're free to work on it in a non-threatening environment, where no one will be yelling at you. The Proving Grounds aren't there to exclude you, they are they to recruit you into the ranks of players with basic competence. Knowing Blizzard I am confident any player who is willing to put even a little effort in and maybe ask or look around for help/tips will be able to get gold.

Now with all that true... in my opinion a raid leader who tells you to finish that first before joining his raid is not being elitist, he's just being a reasonable person asking you to do things in the right order. He's not asking you to do anything you can't do, and if you're not willing to do that for him, then why should he be expected to be willing to do something for you?
I don't think you really understood the context of what was being said. Proving Grounds, for now, is not there to hold your hand through every type of encounter. It's there to get you used to the tools you'd need to tank with. So if it teaches you how to properly handle AoE and to use a taunt once in a while, it's exposing the player to their abilities and what they do. It's not teaching you any specific fight mechanic.

I'd hope you'd rather the player learn, than the game just hold their hand through everything that would potentially influence individual thought.


And there's room for improvement of course. As I said we'll be evaluating how well this first shot goes, and when and if we may want to expand Proving Grounds in the future.

It's not going to take a brand new WoW player in quest blues and make them battle-ready to tank your Normal or Heroic raids. It will help people learn new specs and their basic mechanics (like what taunting even is) in a private setting where they can try to improve without impacting a large raid full of people.
People really will make excuses to not better themselves and point the blame at other people.
Basic psychology there.

I'm excited for both features -
Get to raid on my alts at an okayish level away from the LFR crowd and with my friends at a fun pace.

Proving Grounds when I'm bored.

Also no serious raider in their right mind is going to care about proving groups outside "lolguyscheckdisout" - They care about logs from actual raids. Nobody actually cares about Brawler's guild in that regard too.

There's literally 0 connection.
And there's room for improvement of course. As I said we'll be evaluating how well this first shot goes, and when and if we may want to expand Proving Grounds in the future.

It's not going to take a brand new WoW player in quest blues and make them battle-ready to tank your Normal or Heroic raids. It will help people learn new specs and their basic mechanics (like what taunting even is) in a private setting where they can try to improve without impacting a large raid full of people.


I don't suppose proving grounds will inform players of abilities in their spellbook? (I had a hard time raiding when I forgot shadowfiend existed, when I switched to solace and insanity.) There's certain abilities people don't care to use (or even know that they exist).

How much guidance will one have in the proving grounds?
And there's room for improvement of course. As I said we'll be evaluating how well this first shot goes, and when and if we may want to expand Proving Grounds in the future.

It's not going to take a brand new WoW player in quest blues and make them battle-ready to tank your Normal or Heroic raids. It will help people learn new specs and their basic mechanics (like what taunting even is) in a private setting where they can try to improve without impacting a large raid full of people.


I don't suppose proving grounds will inform players of abilities in their spellbook? (I had a hard time raiding when I forgot shadowfiend existed, when I switched to solace and insanity.) There's certain abilities people don't care to use (or even know that they exist).


...Proving Grounds with a Training Grounds mini-game styled thing that teaches you the core concepts of your spec?

Make this a thing.
Oh please. Please. Please. Please. Please. Please.
And there's room for improvement of course. As I said we'll be evaluating how well this first shot goes, and when and if we may want to expand Proving Grounds in the future.

It's not going to take a brand new WoW player in quest blues and make them battle-ready to tank your Normal or Heroic raids. It will help people learn new specs and their basic mechanics (like what taunting even is) in a private setting where they can try to improve without impacting a large raid full of people.


I don't suppose proving grounds will inform players of abilities in their spellbook? (I had a hard time raiding when I forgot shadowfiend existed, when I switched to solace and insanity.) There's certain abilities people don't care to use (or even know that they exist).

How much guidance will one have in the proving grounds?


It's something we've discussed. It obviously can get pretty complicated, especially with every class and spec and as abilities and talents change, but it of course could offer a super in-depth training situation. There are a ton of things we could do with Proving Grounds, but we're focusing on getting it out there with its current features in 5.4.

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