DK Tanking FAQ - 4.3 [NOT CURRENT]

Death Knight
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I know you said the results from BloodSim you posted earlier probably are off, but I still do find something weird about them. With the sim I'm working on, using RE, I currently get a fairly higher amount of rune refreshes (8% higher, generally) than you get (assuming you consider an RE proc as a rune refresh, too).

My RC values differ quite a bit (15% higher). My DS values differ tremendously, so I'm double checking those (RS is only being used to proc F/U/D but even then it seems high to me).

One question I had for you in particular regarding RC is do you have RC being extended or overwritten by subsequent RC procs?

e.g.:
RC has 2s left on the player when the player uses RC. RC procs. RC now has a 5s duration. (real behavior)
or
RC has 2s left on the player when the player uses RC. RC procs. RC now has a 3s duration. (not real behavior)

Which one does BloodSim do?

Other questions involving that data (or to consider the next time you redo it):

1) How many times are IT/PS used?
2) Related, is Outbreak on a 30s CD?
3) How many times are HS/RT used?
4) How many times is RS used?

edit: added in % differences for RE/RC.
2nd edit: forgot to hit/expertise cap the sim, updated %'s
BloodSim handles RC correctly (it extends the duration if it's already up). Outbreak is on a 30s cooldown and IT/PS are never used.

I don't remember the rest of those. I'll run some in a bit and get back to you. However, fixing the Rune priority for DS is going to make a difference in BT's numbers, I expect, so I'm going to try to do that first.
Found the problem with mine. I had it adding 20 RP when I used DS, and then later rewrote all RP additions/subtractions as a subfunction and forgot to remove that line in DS, so it was adding 40 per use.

100m:
With RE (specifically gaming RE):
Rune Refreshes: 2065 + 703(proc) = 2768
DS's Landed: 1063
RS's Landed: 1562
Pure Blood runes used: 468(HS) + 179(RT) = 647

With RC:
Rune Refreshes: 3290
DS's Landed: 1168
RS's Landed: 1705
Pure Blood runes used: 767(HS) + 193(RT) = 960

edit: Probably going to start working on BT now since those numbers actually look real and line up with what I'd expect.
I made a band-aid solution for the Rune priority issue. It's dumb but it works.

Now I have to write the logic for using BT realistically and that's going to take more effort. D:
04/06/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Lichloathe
I made a band-aid solution for the Rune priority issue. It's dumb but it works.


If you want to see what I did for mine and try to convert it to C#, I can post the source code.

I didn't look at how you handled runes after I saw you defined a new class type for runes, so I taught myself how to do that and went from there, as that seemed like a really good way to go about it.
I use a List of that Rune class to store all the Runes, and the function that chooses which Runes to use just loops through it from start to finish, sees what's available that fits the necessary criteria, and then consumes them.

The problem entered in when DeathBlood runes existed because they were the first added to the List, so they would always be the first ones picked. To solve this problem, I just added them after the F/U Runes so those will be picked for DS first. :D

But I would like to see what you did, maybe I can have a more elegant solution.
04/06/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Lichloathe
But I would like to see what you did, maybe I can have a more elegant solution.


Probably not, but who knows. More than likely, I go about it completely differently than you do. :x

I don't know how much of the code you need to actually see to figure it out, so I just put everything that is called by using DS in sequential order (and isn't immediately obvious what it does).

I'm still working on efficiency and other optimization stuff, so I'm not going to post the entire code up yet.

Source Code:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/115tyxuLB5z0_cjY24TBarbPNweOzi_MCtevVgPg5uX0/edit

edit: for any booleans, I use 1 and 0 instead of typing true/false.
All of those variables are accessible by Main, so there are no global/local declarations.

2nd edit: find(variable_name) returns an array of the indices of non-zero elements

3rd edit: oh, hey, a redundant line.

amg too many edits:

FYI I define CurrentBlood and etc. as how many available runes are in the corresponding slot. So, for blood, it's how many runes are available in slots 1 & 2. CurrentDeath is literally how many available death runes there are, regardless of slot.
Found out why my RC results were so high. Messed up in the rune regeneration. :(

Whatever, fixed, now. Eventually I'll stop finding bugs. :P

It's still coming about to ~2900 runes, which is like 8% higher than yours. 990 DS's.
Hey, can someone direct me to a list of proper gem/enchants for gear? I just turned 85, but I have no idea what to buy. Also, for reforging, the stat priority is mastery > avoidance > stamina, correct?
04/07/2012 03:12 PMPosted by Jakou
Hey, can someone direct me to a list of proper gem/enchants for gear? I just turned 85, but I have no idea what to buy.


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/968396860?page=43#852

04/07/2012 03:12 PMPosted by Jakou
Also, for reforging, the stat priority is mastery > avoidance > stamina, correct?


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/968396860?page=1#3
Awesome, thanks.
So here is a question, what should your hit and expertise be at before you stop worrying about it?
At whatever amount you're at when you're fine with how often Outbreak misses. It'll vary from player to player.
What stat Tank Death Knight should stack?

Mastery or Stamina?
What stat Tank Death Knight should stack?

Mastery or Stamina?

Read the thread.
Do you have some data for average damage taken post-absorbs, Euliat?

Some simple recount numbers for a few fights will be fine, I'm just curious.

I am a bit confused after inspecting your world of logs. I realize it does not account for absorbs, but even after some educated guessing I have you taking twice as much damage as I do on most fights.

I will obviously withhold conclusions until you have had a chance to reply, though.

Normally I would not inquire, except that you seem to be offering advice in some capacity on every page... which compels me to consider your credentials as such.
I appologize in advance if I missed this somewhere in the scroll or forumns.

Deathstrike during the DS raids.

What are those raiding DS normal and Heroic finding to be the optimal Mastery level, assuming its arround 30-32 myself. Reason?

Hitpoints being about 250k+ and parry/dodge being near or over 20% I find that you can fully cap the absorb shield from Deathstrike fairly fast seeming any more mastery beyond the 30-32 to be wasted. I keep reading theres no cap, but it seems this would be it?

If theres a page or site that has got it nailed please respond. Not looking for meters as Ive seen those.
@Alice - Please post your logs and I can take a look. Damage taken comparisons are highly dependent on the healing comp and the strategy as well. Keep that in mind when doing comparisons.

Remember that you need to subtract out absorbs from the damage taken. Also, if you want a good comparison, you need to compare the healing done as well. I like to look at total damage taken minus total healing done for a good measure of difference.

Everything is on farm, so I more or less mashed buttons on the first 6 fights. The last two still require me to be on my game.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hlta31wwdiepu279/

It is probably a good idea to click on my name and look at the melee misses because it is rather high on some fights if done properly. For example, on Hagara, I averaged 77% avoidance. Focused Assault is what blood shields are use for.

In addition, there is a difference between theorycrafting and playing ability. I believe there is a thread in the tanking forums about it. Whether a person is a good player or not, using math and simulations can be used in the place of skill when done sufficiently well.

All this said, I will avoid conclusions until you post world of logs since recount is not a good measure of damage taken. Euliat is spot on with her advice. As for myself, there are very few 8/8 DS tanks that post on here.

/edit Before anyone talks about my specs, they should read my H DS guide a few pages back about using spellweave procs on H Madness.
@Gahris - More is always better. This is dues to blood shield cheesing certain mechanics like Impales and stomps. Yes, you can stack blood shields fast, but they are also being removed fast. All the high hitting abilities (focused assault/impale) cannot be avoided, and you often end up building stacks from scratch over a 5 second period.

For example, on Madness, if I get unlucky with avoidance, I only have 2 death strikes worth of absorbs to live through an impale. That mastery number really helps out.

There is no cap to mastery, but blood shield can never be larger than 10% of your maximum health. Mastery increases the size of each individual shield you create with each death strikes, and you will hit the maximum size frequently. However, it is also being used to absorb full hits frequently, and high mastery will help keep the shield up through a string of unavoided hits.

HOWEVER, there is a point in heroic progression where survivability from pure health becomes important. Stamina gemming will increase base shield size, maximum shield size, total health, and damage (vengeance). When guilds were first getting to Blackhorn or Madness on heroic, stamina gemming was a viable strategy. This is no longer necessary after the nerfs to dragon soul.

Stick with mastery.
04/16/2012 12:52 AMPosted by Alicè
I am a bit confused after inspecting your world of logs. I realize it does not account for absorbs, but even after some educated guessing I have you taking twice as much damage as I do on most fights.


That's really going to depend quite a bit on individual fight conditions and which healers you use, so I don't really know how helpful I can be in that regard without some more specificity.

I'd need to see your recount data, or you would need to post up logs. Or, you would need to post one of my logs that you're specifically looking at so we can be on the same page. If you are using recount or some other in-game addon, verify how it handles absorbs. Does it show you the pre-absorb damage taken, or does it show you the post-absorb damage taken? If it shows the post-absorb damage taken, are you accidentally also subtracting out absorbs, essentially double counting them?

WoL shows the pre-absorb damage taken for DKs. You can pull up my individual data on a fight to see the average pre-absorb physical hit under the "Damage by spell" tab. Sum all of the physical damage I took, and switch over to the "Healing by spell" tab and subtract out the absorbs. Divide that by the total number of hits that landed (back on the "Damage by spell" tab), and you'll get a number that might be close to my actual average post-absorb damage taken.

There's also the matter of what content you're doing and the fight length. Are the fight lengths similar? Are you doing 10's or 25's? Normal or heroic? Is that a fight where I'm wearing full DPS gear (check avoided hits as a %)?

As another metric, you could look at my total damage reduction, but, again, that's very fight-specific, and that term isn't as meaningful now anymore.
1 - ( Pre_Absorb_Damage_Taken - Self_Heals - Absorbed_Damage ) / ( Pre_Absorb_Damage_Taken + Average_Pre_Absorb_Hit * Number_of_Hits_Avoided )

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