No Valor Quartermaster in 5.4

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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its an experiment to see if they can get rid of valor, since valor puts a strict time limit on LFR.

Yes, VP gear forces the massive ilevel inflation. Still, even for normal mode raiders I can see them being stuck with a 522 ilevel item in a slot if they have terrible luck with drops until the end of the expansion.

And if they get rid of VP gear entirely next expansion - what happens if you never win anything to upgrade? This will just encourage normal raiders who have terrible luck to go into LFR and Flex.
You'll be able to get some 535 gear from Timeless Isle along with a 553 crafted belt and legs. VP gear in the past bridged the gap to normal but Flex mode will do that now

Will be nice not having to cap VP on my alts every week, at least when I'm at 3k and nothing to upgrade.
Yes, VP gear forces the massive ilevel inflation. Still, even for normal mode raiders I can see them being stuck with a 522 ilevel item in a slot if they have terrible luck with drops until the end of the expansion.

And if they get rid of VP gear entirely next expansion - what happens if you never win anything to upgrade?

You could get rid of item upgrades too.

If you're worried about item inflation it's a cause of that as well.
Item upgrades are a better system than valor gear though. With valor gear, you only inflate how fast casual players gear, which makes it so they're "done" too soon. Upgrades slowly make content easier at all levels, so Blizz doesn't have to nerf the content. More satisfying to have player power increase than nerfs.
Item upgrades are a better system than valor gear though. With valor gear, you only inflate how fast casual players gear, which makes it so they're "done" too soon. Upgrades slowly make content easier at all levels, so Blizz doesn't have to nerf the content. More satisfying to have player power increase than nerfs.


Agreed. It's also good that it keeps Valor equally useful to a Heroic raider as it is to an LFR raider. Everyone needs upgrades, whereas you run out of Valor gear to buy quickly enough unless you're gearing out a 2nd spec.
This basically eliminates Valor Points as a currency for raiding mains for the rest of the expansion.

You only have 15 slots to upgrade, and one of them is going to be taken by the Legendary cloak. So to upgrade your primary gear set, you need a grand total of 7K valor, and you'll probably be going into SoO with 3K "banked." I'm assuming we'll cap and stay capped for pretty much the whole expansion, from week 1.

What's weird about this is it basically removes item upgrades as a 'thing' as well. Unless you get more than two drops a week, you will simply reflexively upgrade your gear as soon as you get it. There really won't be any such thing as 'non-upgraded gear,' because you'll have too much valor to spend.

Basically, I read this as "normals now drop i561 loot," as I can't imagine any situation where you wouldn't instantly upgrade any drop you get - and unless I get 9 drops my first week, I'll have plenty of valor to do so.

So really - I read this as both "valor is now a currency for alts" and "SoO gear is automatically +8 ilevels."
08/26/2013 08:06 AMPosted by Whaste
you need a grand total of 7K valor


Would only be true if someone was in full BiS double-upgraded HTF gear coming into the tier, and only replaced their gear with BiS HTF pieces... more likely there will be numerous upgrades, side-grades and off-pieces along the way.

08/26/2013 08:06 AMPosted by Whaste
There really won't be any such thing as 'non-upgraded gear,' because you'll have too much valor to spend.


That's more of an argument for resetting valor going into 5.4, since there's no dump for the 3K, than adding a valor vendor.
You'll still have a max of 4k Valor on 9/10 (3k + that week's cap), so while you will be able to upgrade all your "upgrades" as they drop, you won't be able to get "full 561" in week 1, 2, and maybe even 3.

If drops come too slow, you'll have wasted valor waiting for more drops. By the time the drops come, you'll have to grind out more valor, as there's no way to bank enough for every slot. In the meantime, maybe you'll get some pieces that are slightly better, or Warforged, or start moving to Heroic.

Any way you slice it, there's enough pacing built-in there to keep you from being 'fully upgraded' until you're at farm status (or your guild is bashing its head against a wall).
08/26/2013 08:41 AMPosted by Subrosian
Would only be true if someone was in full BiS double-upgraded HTF gear coming into the tier, and only replaced their gear with BiS HTF pieces... more likely there will be numerous upgrades, side-grades and off-pieces along the way.

Actually, it doesn't really matter what your gear is going into the tier - the only question really is whether loot will drop faster than Valor can accumulate.

I'm assuming that most raiders are already at a loss of what to do with their Valor - and T15 had valor gear to drain off the 'bank.'

Think of it this way: Going into week 1: I will effectively have 4K valor (3K banked + 1K earned). In order to spend that, I'll have to get 8 drops. How many people do you think will be getting those kinds of numbers?

Or, if you prefer, think of it this way:

Every boss will drop 6 items (25 man raiding). Assume they all get double-upgraded - that 'consumes' 3K valor. But raid bosses drop 1K valor (25 x 40). That means, for every raid boss you kill, only 2K valor is coming out of the system - spread among 25 players (80 each).

Even if every member of your raid team religiously did literally *nothing* else to earn valor, it would take a capped person 32 boss kills to burn through their personal backlog. If raiders do *anything* else that week to earn more than 80 valor, the raid team will be running a valor surplus.

You can do the math any way you want, but I can't think of any scenario where you wouldn't auto-double-upgrade every SoO drop you get - whether it be side grade, offspec, whatever. You just can't spend valor fast enough or earn gear fast enough to burn through it without some other dump.

Edit - bad math!
08/26/2013 08:42 AMPosted by Slyverius
You'll still have a max of 4k Valor on 9/10 (3k + that week's cap), so while you will be able to upgrade all your "upgrades" as they drop, you won't be able to get "full 561" in week 1, 2, and maybe even 3.

I don't mean you'll have 561 in every slot the first week - what I mean is no one will ever have 553 gear at all.

You will double-upgrade every drop you get, the moment you get it. It will be an automatic think you do - like gemming and enchanting.

There's just no way you could accumulate enough gear fast enough to offset the fact that you start with 4K valor in week 1, and get another 1K every week thereafter. Upgrading will no longer be a 'choice' or a form of 'gear progression,' it will just be 'something you automatically do.'
Right, which is why they should have announced a valor reset when they realized they weren't going to go with a valor vendor. A valor to justice down conversion would have made sense for delaying the inevitable "everything is upgraded", and made returning players less "behind".

As-is, just becomes another wall, along with the meta and legendary cloak, to keep people subscribed and playing. They seem okay with you getting the "8 upgrades week 1" as long as it means you re-subbed 3 weeks early to cap valor.
its a bit of evil situation they made for themselves.

Its clear nerfing has to occur

either by ilevel upgrades or by raw numbers nerfs.

you cant say ilevel inflation is bad and also say nerfing is bad.

one or the other has to happen, there is no alternative, players have clearly shown they arent going to improve.
In other words REALLY alt unfriendly!


Alt gearing should be a priority WELL-WELL-Below main gearing.

you cant say ilevel inflation is bad and also say nerfing is bad.


Ilevel inflation requires effort, cancelling your sub for 6 months then coming back to 35% nerfs is a lot different from raiding week in and week out to get a 1/3rd of an item level per week.
players have clearly shown they arent going to improve.


...sigh. Players have improved. The difference between the a US 100 guild in Classic and a US 100 guild now is incredible. The gap has been created by better add-ons, class balancing, wider dispersion of information, availability of fight videos, and increasing player knowledge.

The point of nerfs, or gear upgrading, is to deal with the fact that bosses are initially tuned in a way that requires large amounts of gear and class stacking simply to get that first kill. As guilds iLvLs improve, they no longer need highly specific comps to kill the fight, and it just becomes about strategy and execution.

Upgrades are a significantly better system than nerfs for addressing this issue, because they increase player power and do not encourage inactive play. Nerfs are generally awful because they reward a player for not playing - i.e. just wait until they nerf it - whereas available upgrades require a player to actually play the game to improve their character.
08/26/2013 10:17 AMPosted by Azane
In other words REALLY alt unfriendly!


Alt gearing should be a priority WELL-WELL-Below main gearing.

you cant say ilevel inflation is bad and also say nerfing is bad.


Ilevel inflation requires effort, cancelling your sub for 6 months then coming back to 35% nerfs is a lot different from raiding week in and week out to get a 1/3rd of an item level per week.


I dont disagree with you

Ilevel inflation is better than nerfing.

But we also have to accept all that comes along with it.... such as silly high ilevels.
But we also have to accept all that comes along with it.... such as silly high ilevels.


No, we don't

LFR needing to be HEROIC is why ilevels are silly, 8 item levels per tier is 24 per expansion, we had nearly a 50 jump from tier 14 to 15, because; LFR

they could have made lfr ToT 496, normal 512, and heroic 520, and removed the Stupid Fun-dur-forge system, and we would be 2 tiers behind, but nope, LFR > Heroic, and the extra layer of loot, (worse with flex now), and we're looking at over 100 ilevel jump from blues to BIS, compared to last expansion being 50. (Wrath was a bit out of control too, but that was purely 10 mans fault)
08/26/2013 10:29 AMPosted by Azane
But we also have to accept all that comes along with it.... such as silly high ilevels.


No, we don't

LFR needing to be HEROIC is why ilevels are silly, 8 item levels per tier is 24 per expansion, we had nearly a 50 jump from tier 14 to 15, because; LFR

they could have made lfr ToT 496, normal 512, and heroic 520, and removed the Stupid Fun-dur-forge system, and we would be 2 tiers behind, but nope, LFR > Heroic, and the extra layer of loot, (worse with flex now), and we're looking at over 100 ilevel jump from blues to BIS, compared to last expansion being 50. (Wrath was a bit out of control too, but that was purely 10 mans fault)


It wouldnt work

Without the inflation the ilevel gap wouldnt be high enough to compensate for the skill gap.

at those levels TOT would have taken at least a 10% nerf at this point before the 5.4 drop to get participation rates up.

Its not impossible that LFR might drop to last tiers normals, but the only case where that could happen is if FLexi is not only successful but wildly succesfull.
No? ToT would of started 20% lower, and the GAP would be smaller between the bottom and top.

Would having a couple item levels lower in tot convince people to try old world content? If it did, Hallelujah, people doing content! All the arguments FOR LFR type raids deal with time and no commitment, if you don't have the time or commitment, why would you care if HEROIC RAIDS had superior item level gear (not even superior, because of trinkets/set bonuses).

Flex is already looking like a sideshow, it's going to end up being LFR but without convenience queues will end up drying up, because the people attracted to it are the people attracted to world of push a button and win loot craft, and they'll find having to push more than 1 button to get into a group will overwhelm them, the other people will do flex like, 3-4 times, then move on to normal having nothing left from Flex.

There's some merit to that function, but overall I don't think Flex is this saving grace to the community, it's still going to be;
LFR: Toxic environment, success is based on cosmic RNG of how many trolls or seriously challenged players there are
Flex: Waste a couple hours, nothing but a gear-time-sync
Normal: Meat and potatoes of raiding
Heroic: Desert, some people eat way too much of it, but can't get enough of it.

and yes Sarosha "TOUCH LFR AT ALL AND EVERYONE QUITS" or aka "It wouldn't work" needs to stop being your tagline, I think the more they touch LFR and devolve it down to a literal story mode, the more healthy the community and game as a whole will be.
Ironically, participation in Normal seems to be hurting more than participation in Heroic. This makes sense, if you look at the effort-to-reward, it really makes the most sense to EITHER do serious progression -or- do LFR.

Flex may help that a little, who knows, such an extreme divide in player skill and commitment isn't healthy and can't be bandaged.
I'm assuming that most raiders are already at a loss of what to do with their Valor - and T15 had valor gear to drain off the 'bank.'


Bad assumption.

Without the inflation the ilevel gap wouldnt be high enough to compensate for the skill gap.


Apparently it isn't compensating for it anyway, so what's the point?

I'm not sure you understand the design anyway. The reason the item levels are inflated so much - beyond LFR/Flex contributing - is because the devs want you to feel more powerful as you progress through a tier.

Ironically if there wasn't as much inflation then you might find bosses easier because your previous gear would have more of an impact.

Its not impossible that LFR might drop to last tiers normals, but the only case where that could happen is if FLexi is not only successful but wildly succesfull.


Flex needs to be successful. To make it more successful LFR needs some changes.. but can't change LFR because somehow 3x the raiding population would unsubscribe instantaneously. Yeah.

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