Ability bloat is getting cray cray

General Discussion
Prev 1 3 4 5 18 Next
Learning how to make a macro so the game does a bunch of stuff in sequence for you is the epitome of "dumbing things down". If you can't do it on your own, then you aren't as good as you think you are.


Not sure you understand what modifiers are.
Druids have a bad case of Bloat. Here are a few abilities I could live without as a Balance Druid:

Frenzied Regeneration
Might of Ursoc
//Buff Barkskin to compensate?//
Nature's Grasp
Faerie Fire
Maim
Combine Dash and Stampeding Roar
Soothe
Wild Mushrooms
Lacerate
Maul
Pounce
Rake
Swipe

Simply leave Mangle + Ferocious Bite for Cat form and Mangle + Growl for bear form and call it good.

Cutting all that fat still leaves intact all my rotational abilities, heals, 3 CCs, cleanse, group buffs, innervate, symbi, raid cds (tranq, battle rez), an aoe silence + all my talents. That's still a good kit if you ask me.
Currently this is all there is to wow's "complexity". A ton of buttons and cooldowns to push. We spend more time looking at our actions bars / buffs / procs then we do at the actual encounter.


not if your UI is set up properly

hint: not stock

Druids have a bad case of Bloat. Here are a few abilities I could live without as a Balance Druid:

Frenzied Regeneration
Might of Ursoc
//Buff Barkskin to compensate?//
Nature's Grasp
Faerie Fire
Maim
Combine Dash and Stampeding Roar
Soothe
Wild Mushrooms
Lacerate
Maul
Pounce
Rake
Swipe


You aren't even going to pul some of those out of your spellbook as a balance druid. that's not bloat. well.. maybe? I guess it depends on how you're defining bloat.

some others, are quite powerful abilities in a raid setting (stampeding roar!)
and I don't play boomkin, but I'm pretty sure wild mushrooms are a dps boost.

idk.. I guess this just shows everyone is going to have a very different idea about what constitutes bloat
08/27/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Annastasi
Currently this is all there is to wow's "complexity". A ton of buttons and cooldowns to push. We spend more time looking at our actions bars / buffs / procs then we do at the actual encounter.


not if your UI is set up properly

hint: not stock


The point is, people shouldn't have to modify the base game to play it properly.

Blizzard acknowledges this and agrees, hence the points made in the interview.
08/27/2013 11:47 AMPosted by Kryptonicz
STOP DUMBING DOWN THE GAME.


Having tons of different buttons to push doesn't make you smart or good at the game. Having fewer buttons doesn't make you dumb or worse at the game. A literal comparison of # of abilities to # of abilities is not a valid comparison for depth of play or complexity that a skillful player can use.

If you have 30 buttons and your rotation is to push each button in order from 1->30, is that a smart game? Can you as a skillful and smart player press those buttons from 1->30 better than a worse player? Now what about if you have 5 buttons that require situational awareness, combo off each other, and a skilled player can achieve let's say a ~10% DPS gain over someone else using those same 5 buttons just by making smart decisions of when to press them.

What's your opinion now on what number of abilities means to making combat complex, smart, or skillful? Do fewer skills actually mean a "dumber" game? Does more of something just seem better? Is context of mechanics/gameplay/skill trumped by counting how many of something there is?
08/27/2013 12:02 PMPosted by Feng


not if your UI is set up properly

hint: not stock


The point is, people shouldn't have to modify the base game to play it properly.

Blizzard acknowledges this and agrees, hence the points made in the interview.


I'm not sure I buy that. The game was designed to be modified. If they didn't want modifications - they wouldn't have made it possible.

Can you play with stock UI? yes. Can you play better with a modified UI? yes. I don't have to search my screen for cooldowns, buff timers, debuff, etc.... I can see it all at a glance.

But that's the beauty of addons - and the ability for us to tweak our UI's....what is best ui for ME, is not going to be the best ui for someone else. That's why a default UI isn't going to be perfect - it can't be. everyone's idea of the perfect UI is going to be different.

A problem with the UI was idenitfied - my response to that is - fix it. I'm sure there's an addon that does. It's not necessarily a change that needs to be made to stock UI though. maybe it's not a problem for many others, after all.
I only use 3 main offensive spells as a Fire Mage. Everything else is hit once or twice an encounter or every 1-2 minutes. My Fire Mage now uses only 2 more buttons in its rotation than a Vanilla Fire Mage.

Where is the button bloat?
Since I don't PvP, I only have fero/tenacity pets.
And it's not a question of lack of action bars, I use bartender so I have plenty of action bar space. The problem is one of keybinds.

When in a raid, I can't afford to mouse click, which means the abilities I need to call up has to be available in a keybind. And it has to be something I can hit quickly with just my left hand (since my right hand is going to be using the mouse to strafe/move).

Realistically, I can only access about 8 keybinds with my left hand alone, at least not without doing some weird finger gymnastics.

Which means for my fury warrior, I'm usually ok. For my hunter, the only saving grace is that I generally do NOT have to move as much with my hunter (being ranged, most of the time, I can stand in one place and pew pew--only having to move if a specific mechanic targets me or targets someone near me).

If I had to deal with as many keybinds as my hunter on my warrior, I would be effectively screwed (or my rotation would be largely busted, or I stand in a lot of bad).


Whoops, I meant Cunning or Tenacity. I think you got what I meant though.

You sound like you are limiting yourself dramatically. Even those that use keybinds, I'm not sure if I know a single person that literally has every button keybound. In truth, I don't either. I've got my set rotation bound and a few situational buttons bound to modifiers. Interrupts are SHIFT+Space, secondary control (disarm, silence, etc - in my hunter's case, the condensed pet-utility macro for each pet in my list) bound to CTRL+Space.

PvP trinket to SHIFT+C. In my hunter's case, CTRL+F for Disengage, SHIFT+T for Master's Call.
SHIFT+F for concussive shot, SHIFT+G for Flare.
SHIFT+1-4 for traps.

I just use these same bindings but with similar functions on different classes. Shift+T, for example, is usually my special movement button. Blink, Master's Call, Roll, and so on - but in cases where I lack that, it is a short-term CD, like Inner Focus or Devotion Aura.

SHIFT+F and G are usually ground-targetted abilities. Usually.

I have no issue with movement or avoiding bad, in both PvP and PvE. I might briefly have to move my mouse to click a CD, but I'm still able to strafe while doing that. I even used to have this awkward playstyle of clicking/mouse turning which I began to weave basic keybindings in to help with that.

I don't see a need to have every button bound. If you are only going to use, say, Stampede once every 5 minutes at the very least, is it even WORTH keybinding alone? I'm sure I would if I cared to get used to additional bindings, but I've never had a need for it.

Really, it just takes practice. Get used to a few keybindings, then add a few more. I don't see this to be a legitimate reason to claim Ability Bloat is an issue, however.
Honestly I feel like Fury went from a good number of buttons to feeling bloated, but it's probably just the playstyle I don't enjoy anymore - was talking with two other wars in guild last night that have since gone prot since Fury's just not as fun as it was in Wrath.

Enhance has a ton of buttons but I think they flow well... the only bloat I'm concerned about is the addition of things I don't particularly want to have to make room for on my hotkeys, like the addition of HTT. I've known about the change for at least a month now and I still have no idea where I'm going to put it on my bars...

08/27/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Bashiok
Having tons of different buttons to push doesn't make you smart or good at the game. Having fewer buttons doesn't make you dumb or worse at the game.


Why can't we upvote Blue posts again?
I must be the only one that does not think there is any issue in the first place.

And I have all classes at 90. :/

@Mouseover macros.

Do you use them? Doesn't sound like it.
08/27/2013 12:03 PMPosted by Bashiok
What's your opinion now on what number of abilities means to making combat complex, smart, or skillful? Do fewer skills actually mean a "dumber" game? Does more of something just seem better?


Not many classes have more than 6 "buttons" they use in their rotation. The rest are situational, and depending how you use them can make or break your preformance.

I like having to be smart about when i drop a specific totem, use my personal CD, ect.
Happily, Blizzard is taking away our Readiness button next patch.


It would be happily if we were compensated for it.
It is a nerf, and it is not being compensated in any way dps wise.

We were as hunter middle of the pack when it comes to progression parses.
Getting a significant nerf without compensation is just making it unlinkely that hunters will be considered seriously for any progression fights in the near future.

When you want to fix burst like they said they were with readiness nerf, then your fix isn't to boost the damage on arcane shot. When you know that hunter damage is not where it should be to start with in PvE, you don't also raise the focus cost of arcane shot by 50%.

There is so much Blizzard say they intend to do and so much things they really do that doesnt match their declared intent that it makes you aware they are not being honest with us.
I have a question for you then, since you expressed your opinion well.

How would you feel about simply not getting a load of situational abilities, versus having them for a short-while and then have them taken from you? Even the oddest button that you will probably only press a few times in your entire time in WoW?

Would you rather get them at a decent pace and keep them, or get something that saves your butt once only to have it removed exclusively because "too many buttons"?

That's a tough question to answer. The only spell I can think of off of the top of my head is Mark of Blood, and even then it's not a good example since it was only really effective against rogues.

But really, as long as they give me some other form of utility, such as buffing the usefulness of another ability or what have you, I could deal with it. They could also roll the effects of one spell into another, e.g. Vampyric Blood could have had the same effect as MoB, so that while it's active each attack heals you for a small amount. Of course, this is just an example.

Now that I've thoroughly jinxed myself, I need to go use Dark Sim as much as possible before it's inevitably removed.
Having tons of different buttons to push doesn't make you smart or good at the game. Having fewer buttons doesn't make you dumb or worse at the game. A literal comparison of # of abilities to # of abilities is not a valid comparison for depth of play or complexity that a skillful player can use.

If you have 30 buttons and your rotation is to push each button in order from 1->30, is that a smart game? Can you as a skillful and smart player press those buttons from 1->30 better than a worse player? Now what about if you have 5 buttons that require situational awareness, combo off each other, and a skilled player can achieve let's say a ~10% DPS gain over someone else using those same 5 buttons just by making smart decisions of when to press them.

What's your opinion now on what number of abilities means to making combat complex, smart, or skillful? Do fewer skills actually mean a "dumber" game? Does more of something just seem better? Is context of mechanics/gameplay/skill trumped by counting how many of something there is?


But is having a set rotation in addition to all sorts of situational buttons a problem either?

I don't want an actual rotation that fills up an action bar (excluding any CD above, say, 30 seconds), but I also don't want my entire toolkit to be limited to two bars. Being able to weave utility cooldowns, damage cooldowns, and other situational presses IS what makes you a skilled player. Buttons for the sake of buttons is only an issue if there are literally more things to press than there are space to put them, but no class has gotten to that point yet. Even if I take every single Castable talent and put every Castable racial on my bars, on top of consumables and everything else, I still do not have one single class without at least one slot available.

Removing buttons such as Eyes of the Beast is pointless. It served no practical purpose, but it was fun to use. There are very few abilities even close to that level of useless, and you want to start trimming them anyway?

What would you trim from Warlocks, Hunters, or Shaman - arguably the 3 classes that have it the worst?

This is not a debate of Quality vs Quantity. They are both important aspects to this topic. I don't care if I have 5 unbelievably well designed buttons, but only those 5. I wouldn't play this game.

The same is true if I had 30 buttons that all accomplish the exact same thing.
Reducing ability bloat is something that's been talked about fairly recently in interviews and tweeters, it's also something we've attempted to address as recently as this expansion. It's a balance, of course, between having depth of complexity through abilities without making the complexity just a ton of different buttons to push. There's also perception issues of taking away abilities, even if they're never used, as undermining the viability or versatility of a class. Classes are largely defined by their abilities, so taking things away can be a touchy subject. It's something that we will need to give another go at addressing, because classes getting new abilities as level caps raise is essentially a given. In any case we tend to save these kinds of big sweeping changes for expansions.


You can have my shaman's rockbiter weapon ability, but only if you don't intend for them to tank and you give me a shiny new toy to replace it with. Your move Blizz.
I must be the only one that does not think there is any issue in the first place.

And I have all classes at 90. :/

@Mouseover macros.

Do you use them? Doesn't sound like it.


I do, actually, as well as focus macros and keybindings for most of my urgent cooldowns and CCs.

I just don't have the same ability on my action bar in 3 different places because I can't write a proper macro.
Having less buttons to press makes the game worse not better.

Get a gaming mouse, use ctl/shift modifiers and then you have 36 key binds on your mouse alone.

Please don't dumb the game down more.


Listen to this panda.


No thanks. I prefer trackballs.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum