Prot gear wtf?

Paladin
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I have been away for awhile and I know things change but....this just seems wrong. Main stats are haste? Stamina I understand and hit/exp cap ok got that. Why would blizz make dodge and block which are usually the end of of tanking seem so stupid.

I have been reading some guides here and their so maybe I am looking at the wrong ones.

Is it true after hit/exp cap its haste?
If so how long before thy change it back?
They're not changing it back (at least not this expansion). Haste is on Prot T16 gear.

People thought hit and expertise were "wrong" when MoP came out, too. But that was silly then, both mechanically and conceptually.

There's nothing specifically not-tanky about haste. It just hasn't been traditionally useful in the past. With the shift in focus from passive defenses to active defenses, haste has become useful (if not necessarily good) for all tanks except warriors, and it's far more likely that Blizzard will change the one tank that can't use haste rather than try to "fix" the rest.
09/04/2013 01:29 PMPosted by Ihealdrunk
Why would blizz make dodge and block which are usually the end of of tanking seem so stupid.


Bad design, bad internal testing, and ignoring external testing. It wasn't intentional.

Is it true after hit/exp cap its haste?


Hit and expertise are the top no matter how you choose to gear, after that it's entirely valid to choose between haste or mastery for reforging, and haste, mastery, or stamina for gemming, depending on the content you do and your personal preference/skill.

If so how long before thy change it back?


They've recently talked about removing one of dodge or parry, or combining them into one stat.. so they're likely never truly changing it back. They've made steps to make dodge and parry less undesirable for most tanking specs, but they're still worse than stats that promote active mitigation.
Haste/Mastery is active mitigation. You control it. You are in charge of your game experience.

Parry/Dodge (& Stam) are passive. You don't control it. You rely on others for your game experience.

That said, regardless of style, most things will still bounce off you. But when big hits come in, who would you rather have in charge of your damage intake? You or some RNG bot. You can smooth things out. Blind luck is the realm of the RNG gods.
after that it's entirely valid to choose between haste or mastery for reforging, and haste, mastery, or stamina for gemming, depending on the content you do and your personal preference/skill.


Except at all skill levels, Haste is more valuable than mastery and sims better in every scenario as long as you use Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield.

Mastery is a distant second and frankly that makes it a non-valid choice. Stamina remains our best survivability stat.

I don't know what the OP is saying with Dodge, it never was a good stat to begin with.
09/04/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Berith
as long as you use Seal of Insight and Sacred Shield.


Which is a skill floor that's not always met, and something you can't sim.
Which is a skill floor that's not always met, and something you can't sim.


If a tank is not running Sacred Shield or Seal of Insight, he's probably not even using Shield of the Righteous, it which case Mastery loses ground again since it also depends on a proper rotation.

At that point, (not using any AM abilities), no stats will help the guy not be squishy anyhow and there is no reason to discuss the scenario since people come here and we can tell them to do it right.

We shouldn't be recommending Mastery anymore, that's the whole point. We just had this convo 2 weeks ago. Mastery is a distant second to Haste. If you want an alternative to Haste, Stamina is what you want to boost your survivability.
I hear you, fellow paladin.

When I saw all the haste stacking, I was excited. But I didn't believe Blizzard would support it like they are, so all my tank gear is Mastery. The rotation feels extremely slow after playing haste-ret and haste-holy specs.

But whatever. We'll see what they do with it next expansion.
I hear you, fellow paladin.

When I saw all the haste stacking, I was excited. But I didn't believe Blizzard would support it like they are, so all my tank gear is Mastery. The rotation feels extremely slow after playing haste-ret and haste-holy specs.

But whatever. We'll see what they do with it next expansion.


Probably another class redesign. They said they supported and even liked the haste prot build but then quickly changed Grand Crusader in 5.4, so I doubt this build is going to be around in the next expansion, we'll probably be back at the boringness of parry/dodge tanking.
They said they supported and even liked the haste prot build but then quickly changed Grand Crusader in 5.4

The problem being addressed there isn't haste being good, it's avoidance being bad. When the next expansion comes around they can totally screw with stats and revamp or remove avoidance if they want, but for now it's here, it's on tank gear, and they want tanks to use it. That's why Blizzard is making changes to all three plate tanks to make avoidance more desirable.
09/04/2013 04:21 PMPosted by Keten
They said they supported and even liked the haste prot build but then quickly changed Grand Crusader in 5.4

The problem being addressed there isn't haste being good, it's avoidance being bad. When the next expansion comes around they can totally screw with stats and revamp or remove avoidance if they want, but for now it's here, it's on tank gear, and they want tanks to use it. That's why Blizzard is making changes to all three plate tanks to make avoidance more desirable.


We still won't stack anything but haste with this change and unlike the other 2 plate tanking classes we don't get that little buff.
It won't stop us from stacking haste because that's not what the change was meant to do. The only thing Blizzard tried to do is make avoidance less bad. They succeeded. That doesn't mean it actually matters overall. It does, however, mean that any avoidance gear you end up with is less bad.
We still won't stack anything but haste with this change and unlike the other 2 plate tanking classes we don't get that little buff.

That's because unlike those 2 other plate tanking classes, we didn't need that little buff.

Riposte is meant to raise their damage up. We're 2nd only to Monks... Common sense called.
I'm first

>:)
Basically, roll in non-crit Ret gear, get Ret chest and head (unless you can afford the Haste/Mastery blacksmithing helm), get the Horridon trinket and your choice of the SPA vendor expertise trinket or the Ji-Kun DPS trinket, build as much haste as you can until about 40% (which is almost doable with T15 Heroic gear), then start dumping into mastery. Use non-crit Ret enchants (use stam on the cloak), spec into Sacred Shield and Glyph of the Battle Healer, run around in Seal of Insight, and win.

That's all assuming 10 man raiding is the end goal. For 25 man, put some stamina in there somewhere, though I have no idea how much.
Lots of good info here thanks. Like I said I had been gone awhile and after coming back I am lost. Leveling up as ret and will probably go prot offspec as I have seen a few pally healers struggle a lot more so then other healers.
@Davisaar : curious, why do you set a Haste threshold at 40% and why do you believe Mastery is more valuable than Haste above 40% ?

@Ihealdrunk : Paladin healers are actually in a very good spot these days, very strong raid and general healers.
@Davisaar : curious, why do you set a Haste threshold at 40% and why do you believe Mastery is more valuable than Haste above 40% ?

I vaguely recall that, before the actual 50% cap became widely known, some people started spreading rumors about a 40% cap (some people claimed 35%) that a lot of people latched on to. I guess it still hasn't totally died out.
I think any haste cap sub-50% is based on being able to reach 50% spell haste with Insight and buffs as a benefit to SS ticks. I could be way off, but I know that for a long time people have still been mistaking the spell haste buff as being one of the best buffs for Paladins and that's really the only logical conclusion.
Mmm...buffs-wise it could also be the attack speed buff being counted towards haste in the character sheet even though it isn't actually haste and therefore doesn't actually count. In that case the logic makes sense for people unaware of that: 40% haste + 10% buff = 50% haste cap.

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