Can someone explain to me what is so great about Bloodmage Thanos? I mean sure he is low cost and give a draw but as a 1/1 he goes down next turn pretty much. Seems other +1 spell cards with more a/d for another mana or two would be better.
Absolutely keep Bloodmage Thalnos, he is incredibly good in many decks. Any deck that has damaging spells benefits from him immensely.
He fits extremely well for Druid simply because of Swipe and Starfall, because he is such low mana and he cycles himself, you can play him and a swipe on the same turn. The +1 spell damage on turn 6+ can easily turn your swipe into a 3 or 4 cards for 1 of yours, and then when Thalnos dies he replaces himself.
The difference between a 4 and 1 damaging swipe and a 5 and 2 damaging swipe is immense, and if he just happens to survive another turn or two, his value is incredible.
If you disenchant Thalnos you will be making a colossal mistake.
When you get enough dust craft keepers and druid's of the claw ASAP. Easily two of the best cards in the game for their costs.
Edited by Icarium on 10/24/2013 10:04 PM PDT
Well it sure has control alright....for the other player so I guess having no minions out makes not having Cenarius matter to me it seems.
But I guess I can kill some of his with starfall on turn 5 after taking 15-20 damage.
Edited by Furydeath on 10/25/2013 4:31 AM PDT
I'm running something some what simular to these decks, except I haven't got all the fancy legendaries, although I am running with Harrison Jones instead of the Ooze, which gets me even more carddraw and a decent minion on the field, atleast if protected.
Looking for to trying this spec out! :)
Wow, thanks for the feedback from everyone. Let me try to answer some specific things.
On scarlet crusaders: they're ok, but not amazing. If you want to replace them, try the 3/1 charge for 3 - it's very close to just a removal spell. In fact, for the guy having trouble with hunters, give that a shot and see if it helps you weather the early game a little better.
On Nourish: it's an awesome card and totally necessary. But I found the second one to often be a dead draw. It's a pretty slow card (though drawing 3 cards is amazing) and I usually had better things to be doing afterwards. You don't need it particularly early, so you don't need two copies for that, so I think 1 is exactly right. I wouldn't cut it unless you replace it with 2 Ancients of Lore. Playing a second is fine, but it'll weaken the rush matchups and I don't think it gives you enough help in the control matchups to matter.
Icarum, your post is great. I'm still on the fence about faerie dragons - sometimes they can pressure a mage or a priest a little, but the rest of the deck doesn't do enough to really take advantage of that. That said, they're a good effect for a good cost so I don't regret them. Ancients of Lore are appealing but I don't have them. As I mentioned in my post, I'd definitely add 1 and possibly 2, but I doubt I'd cut starfire, probably just a Nourish and something else (faerie dragon?). Ancient of War on the other hand I can't agree with. It's exactly the kind of card you don't want. It's big, provides almost no advantage when it comes out, impossible to deal with if they mind control it, dies to shadow word death, and is an actual good target for unconditional removal. Against the rush decks it's too slow (which isn't its point), but against priests it's the only target for Shadow Word: Death, so it's just going to die. A lot. Unless they mind control it.
On the azure drakes, I'm again kind of on the fence. They're fine, but 4 health is a lot less than 5 health (though 5 mana isn't much more than 4 at that point). I think in general Azure Drake is one of the best cards in the game, but I'm not sure I want it in this deck. I would mostly want spellpower (hello Bloodmage Thalnos) early for Swipe and Starfall, but the drake is pretty slow for that.
Ezekiel: I haven't had too much trouble with hunters, though it can be close. Mulligan non-removal spells and kill everything they play. You need to put enough pressure on them with the 4/5 drops that they can't save up to do 20+ damage in one turn. Other than that, kill all their things so they can't buff. Use your claws and bites as armor spells and, if you have ancients of lore, consider gaining life with them, even if you're around 15.
Nasreth: On legendaries: you could try Hogger and Onyxia in place of Ysera and Cenarius. It's totally possible Onyxia is just better than Cenarius, but I think Ysera is kind of irreplacable.
LuckyLurch: On Innervate and Wild Growth. Don't play them. There's enough removal floating around that whatever you do is going to get countered. The fundamental philosophy of the deck is to be consistent and make every card valuable. You can get free wins with these cards, but they'll be rare and you would have likely won anyway without them. But other games you'll lose because you'll have dead cards sitting in your hand. That's what we want to do to our opponents - don't do it to yourself!
TimLeave: Thanks! On Ogre Magi vs Yeti, I like the Yeti much more. Ogre Magi is tough to combo with the AoE spells (since he dies or you're already late in the game so the AoE is less important) and 5 health is much more than 4. A lot of creatures have 4 attack that see regular play, as do a fair number of removal spells (Snipe, Swipe, Frostbolt + Mage power, etc), so the 1 extra health is actually really nice. You can certainly give it a shot, but I really, really like the yetis.
Thanks for the reply fox, I'm still testing out Ancients of war and lore; my deck is more late game focused than yours so I might have more success with them. I don't run claw or bite in my deck at the moment because I actually haven't been seeing many aggro decks lately (crazy I know).
I'm still in love with that 5/10 taunt though, my opponents regularly run 3-4 cards into him, thus setting up rag and ysera for the knockout. Against priests I love it when they mind control him, I save naturalize for this very move, and am able to drop Ysera out the same turn as naturalize.
Concerning faerie dragons, I think they're the perfect fast 2 drop. I can put down so much pressure with a faerie and a twilight drake in my starting hand. I vastly prefer having 2x faerie dragons instead of 2x claw.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on claw and bite, putting them in my deck would change it drastically but possibly for the better. I'd also love to hear what you think about Ancients of Lore in a deck that already has 1x nourish and 2x wrath and 2x starfire; would Ancient of War not be a better choice for board control (not counting mind-control)?
On faerie dragons - I don't hate them. They can certainly do good work. But I like most of my other slots better (except the crusaders), so that's why they're one of my go to suggestions to remove. They just don't fit the strategy all that well. All the reasons you suggest are valid - they're why I put them in in the first place, but after a bunch of games, I'm less impressed than I'd hoped.
For the ancients of war, even without mind control I'm not too excited. They're literally the only creature in the deck (other than Cenarius) that can be hit by shadow word death, so I think they're not going to work at all against priests. I've never, ever, cast a cenarius and not had him eat a shadow word that turn, so I'd suspect the same happens to the wars. For the lores, it bothers me less since I get a couple of cards.
Now, not every game is against a priest, but I have to believe every control deck has a way to deal with them. I don't have big threats in my deck for a reason - I'd like to make assassinate, hex, polymorph, and so on as bad as possible. Right now there are very, very few good targets for them (Ysera and Cenarius) and usually I can just wait forever before I drop Ysera. I think that makes the huge threats weaker than they seem in the matchups where you want them. In the aggressive matchups, of course, they're awful, but that's obviously not their purpose. I just think that the small gain you have in the control matchups other than Priest (and there is no doubt there's a gain - I'm assuming you cut a couple of midrange guys for them) is outweighed by the (somewhat significant) cost in the priest and aggressive matchups.
On claw and bite: Bite is much better. It's another 4 point removal spell that also often gives you some life. That's useful pretty much across the board and is important in the "kill all the things" plan. Claw is just ok. I really, really like having another early removal spell - there are a couple of threats in the first couple of turns that have to be dealt with (Mana Wyrm, Buzzard, Nat Pagle among others) that are a little too big or too inconvenient for your hero power and it's nice to have an option other than wrath. The 2 life/2 damage late game is pretty small, but it's definitely not useless; a couple of life can be the difference. That said, it's certainly a card that I wouldn't play if I didn't expect aggressive (or mage tempo) decks. What are you playing in Claw's spot? I already have the Faerie dragons and there aren't that many good 1-2 drops. Or just a heavier late game emphasis? Since I feel that the claws make a bigger difference in the aggressiveish matchups than the ancients of war would in the control matchups (and the claws are, of course, way better in the control matches than ancients in the aggro ones since even the control decks often have little utility guys).
Ancient of Lore vs Ancient of War: Same argument as above - the stat bonus is less important to me than either life or cards at that point. I feel that against the mage tempo deck and most of the aggressive decks the life is much safer than the taunt (since even the aggro decks can often kill a huge creature) and against the control decks a 5/5 is just the same as a 5/10 plus you get the cards.
Thanks for your insights - we don't agree on everything, but I think this kind of discussion is exactly the point of these forums. Give the feral spells (claw and bite) a shot and I'll try out the ancients when I get the dust for them. Hopefully we'll each be pleasantly surprised.
I'm liking the discussion here guys. I don't have any of the legendary cards since I only had access to the beta for barely a week, but the core of the deck (the mass removal/midrange creatures) are definitely shining and effective. The only difference is that I'm using ironbark protectors/ogres to close the games up instead of lores/wars/yshera.
Just a small comment: StarFIRE feels a bit underwhelming. For 6 mana, it's often used on a midrange creature (yetis,drakes) and it's also not enough damage to kill a bomb, such as the legendaries. The 5 dmg to the face is SOMETIMES an option but that's only if you were able to maintain board control and smash face with your midrange creatures, which is already a sign that you're winning since you're not getting pressured and are getting in the late game. The way I see it, each cards should always be evaluated depending of the worse situation possible, which is why control decks are very good (since every card always end up being very good on their own), and in the worse situation, this card is an overpriced removal spell used on a midrange creature. Best case scenario, you kill a X/5. For 6 mana, that seems very inefficient consider other classes are doing the same thing for 2 or 3 less mana, even if they don't replace the card they just lost.
Having said that, I don't know what we can replace them with since removal is so important in control decks, but I do feel like that if we have to cut something to add another good card, it will have to be them.
As for the ancient of war vs lore, I do agree that lore is definitely better, especially with the rise of control decks. The fact that your deck has a very low amount of creatures mean that they will be holding alot of removal when you pay 7 mana to play a guy. Having said that, in the worse situation, Lore gives you value if it ends up dying (5 hp or 2 cards) while lore just wasted you a turn. Best case scenario, they both hit for 5 dmg, so the pressure from both of them is the same. The only difference is that War is harder to kill with straight up DMG, which less and less decks are doing to get rid of fatties.
Edited by Wulf on 10/26/2013 10:15 AM PDT
Hey I'm playing a very similar deck instead of the scarlet crusaders I run a demolisher and earthen ring farseer , I feel like if they aren't dealt with immediately they become a real pain, also they take more to bring down than a scarlet crusader.
Edited by Batman on 10/27/2013 11:01 AM PDT
Demolisher is a crazy card, and I can see it's value for the early game. What I like most about Demolisher is that people are so scared of them they usually waste a silence or 4+ dmg removal on them (this could really free up your yeti's and especially twilight drakes).
The biggest problem with demolisher in control Druid is that it's slow and has very little value in the late game, so I seriously doubt it will find a permanent spot in control Druid.
Try testing out Emperor Cobra's instead, at 2-3 they can survive many early game trades and they actually rise in value the longer the game goes: a turn 6 control card+cobra will make any opponent think twice about dropping a Frostwolf, Stormwind, or Arena Lord on turn 7.
Edited by Icarium on 10/27/2013 1:38 PM PDT
Didn't like the Druid cards, but came onto the forum to see if I could have some fun. Made this deck and have loved it since. Priest games are annoying only because I know it's a long matchup, but I always stomp em' out. The hunter control decks I've been seeing are pathetic compared to this as well. My deck from tweaking / not having every card.
1 Acidic Swamp Ooze
2 Faerie Dragon (these have created SO many problems for priest early game that it's unreal.)
1 Big Game Hunter
2 Scarlet Crusaders (after playing them Earthen Ring Farseer is sounding a bit more appealing)
2 Chillwind Yeti
1 Keeper of the Grove
2 Azure Drake
2 Druid of the Claw
1 Ancient of Lore
1 Ancient of War
I'm currently running 1 big game hunter and leeroy in place of claw. I'm only testing leeroy but I use 1 BGH in my decks.
Edited by Icarium on 10/27/2013 5:03 PM PDT
Icarium add me on Btag btw John#12435 I can forsee great druid play out of all of us after release XD that goes for any other avid druid fans. This is the main class I play and even though we are under played I would like to see some of us at Blizzcon next year! (if they do a 2014 hearthstone tournament which I am sure they will)
Will do sir, Druid is already my main so welcome to the club.
On another note I recently finished testing Leeroy and Ancient of Lore and replaced them with 2x claw. I gotta say I like claw, for 1 mana it eats faerie dragons and most other early drops to help alleviate the early game pressure. Of course the card is complete crap when compare to wrath, but my deck is now truly mid-range control.
After testing bite, I don't think it will be played in my decks: it's too slow at 4 mana and I vastly prefer having more sustained pressure in the form of yeti's and drake's. My deck performed considerably better running 2x scarlet crusaders and even 2x Emperor Cobra rather than running bite.
Just use +5 attack option against Priests mate! If they use Mind Control on him use your starfire/Starfall. If you're using starfire you also get rid of stupid 2-1 situation.
Against rush decks its too slow. Right. What about a 1 shot hunter on turn 7? Late game charger Warriors? Ancient of war weak to silence but even silenced Ancient has 5/5. To be honest I don't have other creatures weak against silence but it can work greatly when you're running with Rag/Ysera/Malygos etc.
Speaking of these 2 meaningless op legendaries, I'm using a similar deck with some optimizations. I don't have rag. I don't have ysera:/ I'm not a fan of Nourish. I'm not using that card. I don't agree your opinion on nourish. This deck is not about keeping more cards on your hand. This deck is all about picking stronger creatures and superior spells. Strongers creatures (Like Druid of Claw) forces enemy for trading 2-1. Stronger spells forces your enemy to think twice when you're putting a minion on board. So Nourish is only a win more card. Nourish generally isn't good when you're behind.
I didn't invest a money for the game yet (I'll buy 15 pack when I can afford) I don't have Rag. I don't have Ysera. But... I have mighty Harvest Golem!!! Yeah Harvest Golem ALWAYS trade better against 2-3 mana creatures. (Well... Except Scarlet and The King) Also he generally forces enemy to use 1 minor removal spell (Wrath, Frostbolt etc.)
I started keeping my scores 27th october. My score is 62-20 right now. Playing with top 50 players in EU. Like Ekop, ryo, kara etc. I really wish to know what is my rating right now :/
-Priest 9-7 (Damn priests!!!!!!!!! I hate them. I HATE THEM!!!!! I hate mind control, I hate Mind Vision and thoughtsteal, I hate their ridiculus buff strength, I hate their late game.)
-Druid 2-0 (My fellow Druid friends. Where are you?)
-Mage 12-5 (I lose 3 times against same guy named Innominate. He uses Thalnos, Slyvanas, Cairne, Rag, Antonidas, Ysera and alextrasza with LOTS of defensive secrets and freezes. There is no way to stop him. No way! And I learn something from him. Mage's counterspell secret counters Keeper of the Grove's silence. Thats bad. Really bad.....)
-Hunter 11-2 (1 Turn burst hunters are bad. And they should feel bad :) )
Edited by Ace on 10/29/2013 7:45 PM PDT
Nourish isn't just a win more card, you use it for card draw when there's no threats on the board and your hand is full of removal spells. It's also particularly useful late game when you have excess mana.
I can't count how many times I've been up against another control deck where both of our hands are full of removal. Casting Nourish at this time can win you the game, especially versus mages and priests.
What Nourish isn't good against is aggro, which seems to be every flippin' deck out there right now in masters 3 NA.
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