Hero Power too expensive.

Posts: 1,000
4 Resource for ONE card? What?!

Lets compare.

Paladins:
1 Resource for, at the minimum, one card. Likely more however.
4 Resource for 3 damage and one card.
Effectively 0 resource for 3 cards.

Warriors:
3 Resource for, at the minimum, two cards.
2 Resource for minion invulnerability and one card.
2 Resource for 2 damage and one card.
3 Resource for 5 armor and one card.

Shaman:
3 Resource for, at the minimum, one card.

Rogue:
2 Resource for 1 damage and one card.
3 Resource for 1 damage across the board and one card.
7 Resource for 4 cards

And the list goes on..

Yes, you CAN use it more then once, but lets be realistic, due to it doing 2 damage to you, you probably aren't going to use it more then 8 times at the very most, and that's assuming you have some cards to heal yourself.

Not only is it too expensive, but why does it use mana..? Life tap restored mana. While I don't want it changed to 2 life for 2 mana considering that'd completely change Warlocks, it does need to be changed to cost no mana, or at the very least only 1 mana, and even that is still rather expensive.

Comparing it to other things that cost 2 mana and draw a card, life tap is by far the worst, and not even slightly worse considering you can use it more then twice, but it's just flat out horrible.

So, as stated above, it needs to be changed to either cost no mana, or less, or have less of a drawback or something..For two mana you can have multiple cards that give you both a benefit and card draw, making this hero power terrible, not to mention the fact that after spending mana to draw a card you might not have the mana to use the card you just payed 4 resource to draw.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,091
Card draw, while good, isn't THAT good for it to cost 2 mana and 2 HP.

It should just cost 2 HP.
Reply Quote
Posts: 79
Card draw, on the whole, seems to roughly follow these rules:

- Baseline, cards drawn = half the mana cost, rounded up
- If the cards drawn is exactly half the mana cost, or if it's 1cost/1card it may do something else, too.
- If the card does something else that's significant, add 1 mana.

Hero powers are also generally worse than actual cards, in all cases.
2 mana for a 1/1 --- 2 mana usually nets you a 2/3 or 3/2, with beneficial effects.
2 mana for 1 damage(0.5 damage per mana) -- 6 damage costs 4 mana(1.5dpm), 10 damage costs 8(1.25dpm). 1 damage across the board costs 2(0.5 to 4dpm)
2 mana for 2 healing -- 2 mana gets you 6 healing. 0 can get you a board-wide 4.

etc.

This in mind, it's balanced.
Not with other card draw, but with other hero powers.
Though I can't deny I'd like to reduce that cost somewhat. Or perhaps just situationally reduce it. For example, you still need those available resource, but the card you draw with it costs (1) less, for that turn only. It's the smallest(and thus most reasonable, in this case) buff i can think of.
Edited by Malix on 10/19/2013 6:38 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,000
It's not that it needs a straight up buff, it just needs a reduction in its cost.

Honestly, it really isn't on par with other hero powers.. Mages for example could kill a creature, or activate enrage..

That said, not all hero powers are really perfectly balanced. Rogues for example is god-awful. Yes, you can buff the weapon, but why would you? No reason to waste your weapon buffs on a weak weapon.

Sure, hero powers are generally worse then cards, but they're strong because they can be used so many times. Warlocks can only be used a limited number of times due to limited health, is useless late game when you're just sitting on fatigue or 1-2 cards or low health..Making is even worse then other powers.
Reply Quote
Posts: 79
- I consider a reduction in cost to be a buff to the card/power
- I consider temporarily reducing the cost of the card you draw to be a (slightly weaker form of) reduction in cost of the card/power itself
- What you can do that Life Tap is effectively anything you can do in the game for 8 mana or less. Depends on what you draw with it.
- Mages can do X or Y, Warlocks can do potentially anything.
- Rogues can't buff their weapon any more. It was actually too strong.
- Using it early-game is more than enough; That early card draw stays an advantage for the whole game, because even if you got a dead-draw with it, it's still a dead-draw you're not drawing next turn -- you've moved one card further down your deck than your opponent has.
- much like in WoW, we have a great deal of self-healing to counteract our blatant misuse of our own life energy.

If I take a purely mathematical standpoint here, all things being equal, I'd estimate Life Tap to be about 40% as efficient as most drawpower card - calculated by counting 1 health as 1 mana, then reducing the efficiency a bit more for good measure - That's more than fair even by your standards; 1 mana is worth significantly more than one health, So 40% is an extreme underestimate.

- Mage's Fireblast is, as mentioned before, 0.5dpm. If I take everything else a mage does for damage and average them(while also ignoring additional effects that would add to their costs, so this is an estimation in your favour...))...
Fireball's 1.5, Pyroblast's 1.25, Frostbolt's 1.5, Arcane Missiles' 3, Arcane Explosions' 0.5-4, Blizzard's 0-2.8, Flamestrike's 0-4, Cone of Cold's 0.33-1.
That goes to an average of 1.6325 damage per mana, making Fireblast 30.6% efficient.

Now, the Mage one, which I assume you believe to be either good or balanced, wound up less efficient than the Warlock one even when I went out of my way to skew the results in your favour. You can argue utility uses all you want, but while I can calculate the mana worth of triggering an enrage(on average), I can't calculate the mana worth of the utility use of whatever you might have drawn with life tap, and I dont see anything other than hard fact dissuading you.

Plus, your original point was that you just don't get enough out of lifetap for what you pay for it, which i just objectively disproved; Life Tap is extremely efficient for cost/gain ratio.
Edited by Malix on 10/19/2013 8:04 PM PDT
Reply Quote
- Hearthstone
Posts: 12,327
Card draw, while good, isn't THAT good for it to cost 2 mana and 2 HP.

It should just cost 2 HP.


Yes, card draw IS that good.
Reply Quote
Posts: 490
Warlocks have the best hero power except for priests, but only because priests have better card draw via cards like northshire cleric and thoughtsteal.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,121
Well warlocks can draw more cards than any other hero. If you get card what you need it's worth the cost and if it's not what you wanted it might feel waste. Warlock has some class cards that allow you to heal while doing damage so it's not that hopeless.

Rogues and Druids often take damage while they use their powers to control deck.
Reply Quote
Posts: 513
I see totally fine warlock's hero power cost.

I guess people who can't afford to pay life to continue its strategy will always say that drawing a card for 2 mana and 2 life is crap and the worst power ever.
Warlock's playstyle is characterized by paying life in order to obtain resources or advantage (2 damage for summoning a demon which hits for 3 on turn 2? I TOTALLY love it), this is what characterizes them, and most important... drawing cards is one of the best abilities in ANY TCG or OCG.
I'm currently lvl15 warlock (which isn't so much, but at least enough to say I'm used to play it) and I also use creatures which hurt myself (1 Pit Lord and 2 Flare Imp) and my winning rate is like 80% (even against hunters, tons of mages and priests), and drawing cards have always give me an advantage, like summoning Twilight Drake, some opponent's can't deal with something with more than 7 defense in turn 4, or 6 defense on turn 3.

Rule is simple: If your opponent has less threats that your number of answers, you will surely win.
If you opponent has less answers that your number of threats, you will surely win.

It would be more probable that they decided to nerf the warlock's hero rather than making it cheaper, and I don't think they will change it at all, it is nice, balanced and compensates all the "BAD" cards warlocks have.
Reply Quote
Posts: 100
The only problem with the Warlock's hero power is that the game has been in a perpetual burn/aggro meta since people were playing it on Cockatrice. If Mages and Hunters didn't exist, we would probably be calling the Warlock's hero power ridiculously overpowered.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1
This in mind, it's balanced.Not with other card draw, but with other hero powers.


Erm...seriously gotta disagree here.

In addition to the 2 mana, 2 life cost, also consider the situation of burning through cards too quickly in a long game.

I understand that's a risk when you use ANY draw cards ability, but as the only ability we have, it has ended up costing me more than a couple of games.

When you play against a priest, warrior, or druid (or any class with plenty of access to healing/armor stacking), it can easily become death.

For example: if we use life tap only 3 times in a single game, and the opponent doesn't draw any cards, by the time our enemy takes 1 damage from being out of cards, we've taken a total of 12 damage (6 for the 3x life tap, +1,+2+3 for being out of cards earlier). At 4 uses, it jumps to 18 life. At 5, we're down 25, and they're down 1.

I know this isn't something we have to worry about every game, but it does cost losses on the occasional time the opponent lasts that long. Even against someone else who is drawing cards, if they run out of deck and start taking damage, they know it's a trade-off they chose to make by building a deck with draw cards. With us, it's a result of not having anything beneficial to do with our power.

Personally, I don't see a decent balance even being available with this ability, seeing as each class only has access to one. Changing the cost either direction for either mana or life would end up being unbalanced for or against us, and we'd still not have anything we can reasonably use each turn to use up any extra mana, like the warrior armor boost.

I'd prefer if the devs would consider just replacing it with a different ability altogether, such as...health funnel. I'm just kinda pulling this out of somewhere at the moment, but the ability to pay life (not mana or life + mana) to heal one of our minions would be very appropriate. Pay 2 life, heal target minion for 2 damage. As a power, I think that's rather balanced, very warlock appropriate, and the built-in limitation of a power's once-per-turn sounds very reasonable to me. If they wanted to give us more selective draw ability cards to choose from(along the lines of Sense Demon), I think we'd end up fairly well off, but not to the point where the other classes would feel we're OP.

Thoughts?
Reply Quote
Posts: 111
Perhaps make it so that the cost is based on a condition?

e.g if your hero HP is below half, cost of Life Tap is lowered to 2M/1HP (maybe 1M/1HP)
Reply Quote
Posts: 106
Yeah I agree, make the drawn card cost 1 less mana IF it is a demon. Seems reasonable to me. And its the smallest buff possible without making it overpowered.
Reply Quote
Posts: 157
if you're struggling with it put in more life gain, it's fine as is
Reply Quote
Posts: 314
How about reduce the health cost by 1? You could use it more, but still be mindfull for the mana dump as well as be aware of your health. You'd just not longer be winning the game for the enemy after 2-3 draws.

Or even better, replace Mortal Coil (card) and Life Tap (Hero power), make Life Tap a card that takes 0 mana, costs 2 hp to use and gives you 1 card.
Then let Mortal Coil as a Hero Ability, cost 2 mana, deal 1 damage, and if it kills anything draw a card.
Sounds like a pretty fair balanced trade off.
Edited by Khristian on 1/17/2014 4:05 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 676
01/17/2014 04:00 AMPosted by Khristian
How about reduce the health cost by 1? You could use it more, but still be mindfull for the mana dump as well as be aware of your health. You'd just not longer be winning the game for the enemy after 2-3 draws.

Or even better, replace Mortal Coil (card) and Life Tap (Hero power), make Life Tap a card that takes 0 mana, costs 2 hp to use and gives you 1 card.
Then let Mortal Coil as a Hero Ability, cost 2 mana, deal 1 damage, and if it kills anything draw a card.
Sounds like a pretty fair balanced trade off.


What? why should anyone run a card that draws you another card for 2 hp, that makes 0 sense.

and in exchange you want a mage hero power with draw engine?

Just remove this stupid hero power already and give us better class cards instead, life tap isn't even useful for current control decks anyway.
Reply Quote
Posts: 653
Most people seem to be forgetting one cost: Cards.

If you play (as an example) a Gnomish Engineer to thin your deck it's essentially:
-1 card, -2 mana, +1 card, + 1/1 minion.

Your hand will thus retain the same number of cards.
You just go through your deck faster and get a bad minion.

Life Tap on the other hand is -2 Life, -2 mana, +1 card.
You actually gain +1 card in hand advantage because you didn't spend one, only drew an extra.
It's kind of like using Arcane Intellect in that your hand will end up having 1 more card than it did before.

Also if your deck allows you to use Life Tap a lot then you don't need as many card-draw cards.
Most draw-cards tend to suck for anything else than drawing cards, so going without them means that you can fit more actually useful stuff in your deck.

The biggest problem I see with Life Tap is that you can't rely on it against rush decks because you just get killed super fast.
Also it's much less useful if you use high-cost cards.

Also it's anti-synergy with most demons... Which is funny in a sad way.
You want to have no other cards in your hand when you play Succubus or Doomguard, to avoid their awful Battlecry effects.

You also don't want to Life Tap and then play a Pit Lord to deal 7 damage to yourself in one turn.

Funnily enough Pit Lord would probably be pretty good in a Paladin or Priest deck because they could easily heal the damage.

(Think if a Paladin played a Pit Lord on turn 4 and then later played Lay on Hands or Guardian of Kings...)

Aside from Earthen Ring Farseer the neutral healing cards just aren't all that great from my experience.
Witchdoctor has meh stats.
Priestess of Elune is a 5/4 and 4 healing for 6 mana. Awful efficiency...
I might sometimes use it if it was a 5/6 or even a 5/5.
Reply Quote
Posts: 331
10/19/2013 09:29 AMPosted by Bladecatcher
4 Resource for ONE card? What?!

Lets compare.

Paladins:
1 Resource for, at the minimum, one card. Likely more however.
4 Resource for 3 damage and one card.
Effectively 0 resource for 3 cards.

Warriors:
3 Resource for, at the minimum, two cards.
2 Resource for minion invulnerability and one card.
2 Resource for 2 damage and one card.
3 Resource for 5 armor and one card.

Shaman:
3 Resource for, at the minimum, one card.

Rogue:
2 Resource for 1 damage and one card.
3 Resource for 1 damage across the board and one card.
7 Resource for 4 cards

And the list goes on..

Yes, you CAN use it more then once, but lets be realistic, due to it doing 2 damage to you, you probably aren't going to use it more then 8 times at the very most, and that's assuming you have some cards to heal yourself.

Not only is it too expensive, but why does it use mana..? Life tap restored mana. While I don't want it changed to 2 life for 2 mana considering that'd completely change Warlocks, it does need to be changed to cost no mana, or at the very least only 1 mana, and even that is still rather expensive.

Comparing it to other things that cost 2 mana and draw a card, life tap is by far the worst, and not even slightly worse considering you can use it more then twice, but it's just flat out horrible.

So, as stated above, it needs to be changed to either cost no mana, or less, or have less of a drawback or something..For two mana you can have multiple cards that give you both a benefit and card draw, making this hero power terrible, not to mention the fact that after spending mana to draw a card you might not have the mana to use the card you just payed 4 resource to draw.

stick to your op murloc deck and win 99% of all your games, you wont even need your health.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,885
01/17/2014 08:52 AMPosted by Serefina
life tap isn't even useful for current control decks anyway.


Because as we all know, Card Draw is terrible for Control?
Reply Quote
Posts: 2
God damn it.

People who do not understand the power of drawing cards have no business playing any CCG what so ever.

I will gladly pay any amount of life to draw more cards, aka threats and answers, as long as I have 1 health remaining when the game ends.

If a spell had the wording; 3 mana, draw 3 cards, deal 8 dmg to yourself, or anything like that, I would play it in a heartbeat.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]