Mindvision and Thoughtsteal

There are plenty of complaints about Priest right now, and while I do think they need a bit of tweaking, my complaint is not about the cards that tend to get the most criticism. Shadow Words and Mind Control can all be played around, even if it's difficult.

The cards I have a problem with are actually Mindvision and Throughtsteal.

First, they can't be played around. A Priest can copy an amazing card you drew into on turn one, after a mulligan. Thoughtsteal just copies from your deck, so there's nothing you can do there either.

Second, they allow the Priest to have access to cards they shouldn't otherwise have. It's pretty rough getting around things like the two copies of Ragnaros the Priest happened to copy (as happened to me many games ago), or the Polymorph and Flamestrike I got hit with last game.

Most importantly, though, it gives the Priest MASSIVE card advantage, which is devastatingly powerful for a control deck. In my experience, Priests tend to run the game down to the wire, where both opponents are left with next to no cards in their decks. In this scenario, Two copies each of Mindvision and Thoughtsteal give the Priest six extra cards in hand, without depleting their deck at all.

By comparison, the closest card to Thoughtsteal is the Mage's Arcane Intellect. Pay three, draw two. These two cards come from the Mage's own deck, though, thus depleting him closer to fatigue damage late game. This is something most Mages have to deal with if they're playing control (or against a control player): they're going to draw a lot, but at the expense of running out of cards late game.

The closest non-Priest card for the same cost is the Hunter's Flare, which is situationally nice, but in most games amounts to nothing more than a simple pay one, draw one. Again, though, this comes from the player's own deck.

It could certainly be argued that Priest can potentially draw into cards that do no good for them (e.g. "give your weapon +X/+X", etc.), but more often than not, they can put the cards to some kind of use. Even crappy beasts can be used as fodder, and sometimes they hit pure gold with the cards they luck into.

I am not claiming that these cards need to be removed from the game. I will never advocate such drastic changes to a game. I do, however, think the benefit the cards give them is insanely underrated and incredibly useful, and think the cost for both cards needs to be tweaked.

Thoughts?
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I've mentioned this before with little response. But yes it's annoying to deal with also the card that plays a random minion from opponents deck (played my deathwing first time I saw it used without causing its effect)

I'd like mind vision reworked.

2-4 mana reveal opponents hand

Thought steal ? Maybe ...
Prophecy
2-4 mana reveal opponents next 3-5 cards to priest

Stealing cards doesn't seem very priestly to me kinda a roguish.
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1) Stop trying to promote yourself. Your contribution to this thread is a thinly and poorly veiled attempt to get people to watch your stream. It's not kosher behavior on the forums.

2) I don't think the "this card really gets me out of binds" argument carries much weight when Priest is already the most powerful class in the game. It definitely doesn't need more answers.
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Keeping in mind, I'm only speaking for myself (obviously but sometimes it still bears noting) but Mind Vision is a pretty crappy card. The random element means that you cannot plan on the results and that you'd be better off just putting a good card that you can count on in its place. Plus you're not even getting any card advantage from it since you're spending a card to get a card. The end result being that you get a random card from your opponent's deck that costs you one more to cast than it would them to do the same. Thoughsteal on the other hand is great. Just for the card advantage, dealing with the fact that they are random is totally worth it.

If anything, the biggest advantage for these cards is that your opponent can't really anticipate the results. Sure, the priest copied 2 cards from your deck but which ones?? It worked out great for me when I copied and got a Malygos and a fireball but not so much if get the warlock summon demon card.
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It's a one mana card that has the potential to swipe a really strong card. If it were two or three mana you could make that argument, but it's essentially just a really low cost chance to gain a huge advantage on your opponent. The problem with the Priest deck is that it has so many cards that can both serve to turn around a game and also solidify a lead. Mindvision is a gambling card that has barely any real ante.
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10/22/2013 06:54 PMPosted by Derek
Most importantly, though, it gives the Priest MASSIVE card advantage, which is devastatingly powerful for a control deck. In my experience, Priests tend to run the game down to the wire, where both opponents are left with next to no cards in their decks. In this scenario, Two copies each of Mindvision and Thoughtsteal give the Priest six extra cards in hand, without depleting their deck at all.


It's more like 2 extra cards. Whatever MV copies replaces it 1 for 1, so there's no card advantage gained there. Whatever the TS copies replaces itself and gives you another card, so its essentially a 2 card draw for 3 mana. They're perfectly fine IMO, you don't really gain a lot by using them other than the small chance of copying a bomb like Rag or Ysera.
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Mind Visioned twice on last match 2x deathwings, only because the second mind control was with only 1 card in hand and never saw 1st played. 2 mind controls on 2 other legendary and stalemate on deathwing holding died due to lack of cards -.-

Mind Visions are extremely useful when opponent is holding on there last card.
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Most importantly, though, it gives the Priest MASSIVE card advantage, which is devastatingly powerful for a control deck. In my experience, Priests tend to run the game down to the wire, where both opponents are left with next to no cards in their decks. In this scenario, Two copies each of Mindvision and Thoughtsteal give the Priest six extra cards in hand, without depleting their deck at all.


It's more like 2 extra cards. Whatever MV copies replaces it 1 for 1, so there's no card advantage gained there. Whatever the TS copies replaces itself and gives you another card, so its essentially a 2 card draw for 3 mana. They're perfectly fine IMO, you don't really gain a lot by using them other than the small chance of copying a bomb like Rag or Ysera.


At the very least it's a four card advantage. You're forgetting that all other classes' draw cards also count as a card in deck, so this is not a factor in calculation.

Control-oriented decks require a large number of cards in hands to be able to have the answers needed in hand at any given time, while occasionally throwing their own threats out along the way. Mage is a perfect example of this: every control Mage runs Arcane Intellect. It allows them to keep their hand size up as the game moves along, at the sacrifice of fewer cards left in their deck late game (and the potential of running out of cards altogether if the game goes long enough).

Mindvision is the only card in the game that gives a 1 for 1 "draw" without doing something extra (small packet of damage, removing enemy secrets, being a minion with its own attack value, etc.), so we can exclude it if you want. I still say the advantage of hitting something amazing that can't otherwise be run in a Priest deck is still too good for the cost, but that's not what we're talking about now.

So, just looking at Thoughtsteal: it puts two cards in your hand, giving you either more answers or more threats, but does not in any way affect the number of remaining cards in your deck. This is, compared to Arcane Intellect, for example, a two card advantage for the Priest for every copy of Thoughtsteal vs. Arcane Intellect that is played. Yes, it takes up a spot in the deck, but so does every other card that has a draw mechanic. Compared to every other draw card, this is the ONLY one that does not hurt your deck size. So, all things being equal, this card gives the Priest significant card advantage over the course of the game. Either the Priest has hand size advantage earlier on by playing "draw" cards when the opponent does not, or the opponent plays "draw" cards too, and the Priest has deck size advantage late game.
Edited by Derek on 10/25/2013 8:53 PM PDT
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Because of thoughtsteal I was pyroblasted two turns in a row by a priest. Then the next turn my deathwing was mind controlled after using deathwing's battlecry to kill the priest's 28/28 lightwell and 15/17 gurubashi berzerker. Priest had no cards in hand when I played deathwing.

Now I concede immediately when matched with any priest. Refuse to even play a 1st turn. This is my only form of protest.
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Good to see that you want to learn, instead of just blaming the class.
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Still a relevant issue, and still deserves further conversation and consideration.
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Mind Vision is hit and miss. If you cast it late game, you have the chance to get a good card, but it's honestly hit and miss. Many times I actually just got a stupid 3/1 charge minion, and I'm pretty sure any card I would have put in my deck other than Mind Vision for that game would have been better.

So Mind Vision isn't really card advantage, and it isn't even card selection. It's just a random chance of either getting something useful or not, and to be honest, I don't like that kind of randomness. Yes, you can save it for the right time and copy a good lategame bomb, but that's about its only purpose. It's never guaranteed though.

I do think it's dumb that such a card can cause a game to swing around so rapidly though.

Thoughtsteal is a much better card, and is typically better against opponents running better decks. But even if they aren't, it's good card advantage. I am not sure if it's too strong. Theretically, even Arcane Intellect can draw you 2 powerful late-game bombs if you have them in your deck - and you should. You shouldn't be relying on thoughtsteal to draw bombs from your opponent's deck.
Edited by Scala on 10/27/2013 5:28 PM PDT
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Two copies each of Mindvision and Thoughtsteal give the Priest six extra cards in hand, without depleting their deck at all.

By comparison, the closest card to Thoughtsteal is the Mage's Arcane Intellect. Pay three, draw two. These two cards come from the Mage's own deck, though, thus depleting him closer to fatigue damage late game. This is something most Mages have to deal with if they're playing control (or against a control player): they're going to draw a lot, but at the expense of running out of cards late game.


The OP is a bit off on his analysis. That's 4 cards in the priest deck that cost (2 x 1) + (2 x 3) = 8 mana to generate 6 cards for priest, only a net bonus of +2 cards (1 each from the Mindvision) at a cost of 8 mana, seems legit.

I think the aspect of getting access to random cards makes them fun cards to play, but I do agree some of the other commenters that it does seem more rogue-like to steal. However, regarding power-level, I do not think these cards are too strong, because there is such a high randomness factor with them.
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This two spells a bit OP arcane int gives 2 cards for 3 mana Priests can steal 2 additional cards for 3 mana and ofc 1 mana steal need think about it well,do some with this,maybie opponent may chose 1 card and give it to priest its copy?and maybie do 5 mana cost for steal 2 cards?
Edited by J464J42215T on 10/28/2013 7:24 AM PDT
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Mind vision is bad, you pay mana to basicly know one enemy card and thats it, you gain a card at the cost of a card so the only advantage you are given is the knowledge of one card the enemy has.

Thoughtsteal is decent at best, giving 2 for 1, however it still is a complete dice throw whetever you get something useful or not.

Even mages arcane intellect is better than thoughsteal and that card isn't too good either considering you have options like loot hoarder, novice enginneer and acolyte of pain.
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Mindvision is one of the IMBA cards in this game IMHO.
Why?
Because you never use it in early game!
When your opponent is low on cards in hand and in late game, this 1 cost Mindvision card always guarantees the other side to rage quit.
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Remove both cards and give the priest cards that he can create a strategy around rather than having gambling cards that can royally screw the priest or the opponent. The RNG is not fine.
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Currently i do fine against priests with all the shadowords, mind controls, and insane hp/attack minions. The problem i have is that mind vision is broken when added to the above obstacles, generally when im playing as say mage I hold at least 1 fireball and/or poly so that I cover off mind control. But a good priest will wait until turns 6+ when your down to a small hand to steal your powerful 'held' cards.

Thoughtsteal isn't as bad because of its randomness, it's the fact that mind vision only chooses from the pool of cards you currently hold.
Edited by Leppter on 11/30/2013 1:37 AM PST
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They are annoying cards i agree but i love playing priests who do that when im using my shaman. I love when they play an overload card and then the next turn they cant do anything but heal then i drop 3 low cost minions.....rofl its !@#$in awesome.
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