Mindvision and Thoughtsteal

Posts: 46
Mind Vision and Thoughtsteal aren't particularily strong, but due to the nature of random copy, the copied cards might end up being a gamebreaker.
In short they are annoying as hell and possibly bad designed cards but certainly not too strong.
I will admit though, that they get better & better the better your opponents deck is - causing further frustration.
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Posts: 927
Thoughtsteal NEED A NERF. TOO OP
stealing 2 cards from the enemy deck not only give the priest 2 extra cards.
the adversary is let with a psychological disadvantage.
now i have to think what if he steal my flamestrike ? or my pholymorph or my legendary card ?

now i have to play more carefully thinking in the WORST SITUATION possible.

this is a gamebreaking .... some solution i was thinking.

1° make Thoughtsteal Steal only minions stealing class specific cards is just retarded... priests with warriors weapons mage spells dont make sense.

2° let the enemy know what cards was stolen
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Posts: 126
Mindvision, at least in my experience, rarely gives me a card worthwhile. Always seems to be a magnet for getting "The Coin" card, I swear some opponents hang on to the coin till round 8 just for this reason lol. Thoughtsteal is a gamble yeah you can get some awesome cards but you might also get some really useless cards, I have gotten things such as deadly poison before and was not lucky enough to grab a weapon from my opponents deck. I do agree though that they do give an unfair card advantage as with them priests do essentially have a 34 card deck. I think a solution for this would be to add a discard a random card in your hand to thoughtsteal when it is played. This would lower the card advantage and force priests to really consider when it is best to use the card.
On a side note the most hilarious combination of mindvision and thoughtsteal cards I have had in a single match was getting 5 fiery war axes in normal mode play.
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Posts: 1
I agree with you Derek, I wouldn't be so drastic as to just cut the cards from the game, but I have a few suggestions that might alleviate the impact these cards are currently having on the game.

One suggestion would be for Thoughtsteal to also discard two random cards from your own deck, when you cast it. This takes away the card advantage. If the intention for this card was the chance at hitting something juicy from your opponents deck, this also comes with a price. If the intention was merely to have info about your opponents deck, the card is just too strong since there are so many cards that multiple decks could be using, and it's unlikely that you just hold it in hand as bonus info on what your opponent might play in an upcoming turn.

The thing about any cycle type card is that you play them so that you use mana to dig deeper for a card that is better than the cycle card. ANY card that you get is better than the card played at basically no cost but slight tempo loss from the mana you had to spend to cast it. With Mindvision, I think a possible suggestion would be for the card to also discard a random card from your deck when you cast it.

Anyway those would be my suggestions, who knows if any changes will actually be made in the future patches
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Posts: 143
After reading this thread I mind vision'd a gorehowl on turn 1.

I was also beaten.
Edited by Jazzycakes on 12/12/2013 7:25 AM PST
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Posts: 822
10/25/2013 10:39 PMPosted by Pec
Because of thoughtsteal I was pyroblasted two turns in a row by a priest.

You deserved it
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Posts: 284
My only problem is it gives priests a 32 to 30 card advantage the 2 cards for 1 needs to be 1 for 1 or they have to discard a random from their deck (and they shouldnt get to see what it was LOL)
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Posts: 497
Y'all mad. All you do is point out the times the priests took good cards from you. You ignore all the !@#$ty cards they take from you too.

And yes, I do play priest. And I play a deck with 2 MV, 2 TS, and my Mind Games. I don't play ranked. I play casual, and I play this deck because its FUN.

It's fun seeing what cards I get from RNG. It makes for interesting matches.
Edited by Watafool on 1/5/2014 11:55 PM PST
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Posts: 2
I still can't believe how people are arguing that Thoughtsteal is a balanced card. WHAT?!
First of all , this is a CARD game , which means, players aren't supposed to know what their opponent has in their deck/hand . The priest defies that most important and valuable law and not only does he gain 2 cards, he also doesn't loose cards from it's deck which makes other classes weak , because they all draw from THEIR decks (e.g. arcane intellect , mana tide totem..) so they come closer to fatigue , whereas the priest just gets 2 cards out of nowhere(And at a low mana cost !)
So , please nerf this card, make it higher cost , like 6 or 7, i have no problem with Mind Control , because you can counter it , but THIS card , when the priest uses it YOU CAN DO NOTHING.
After that , just bend over and hope they have lube.
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Posts: 1,413
01/13/2014 10:21 AMPosted by PixlWizz
I still can't believe how people are arguing that Thoughtsteal is a balanced card. WHAT?!
First of all , this is a CARD game , which means, players aren't supposed to know what their opponent has in their deck/hand . The priest defies that most important and valuable law and not only does he gain 2 cards, he also doesn't loose cards from it's deck which makes other classes weak , because they all draw from THEIR decks (e.g. arcane intellect , mana tide totem..) so they come closer to fatigue , whereas the priest just gets 2 cards out of nowhere(And at a low mana cost !)
So , please nerf this card, make it higher cost , like 6 or 7, i have no problem with Mind Control , because you can counter it , but THIS card , when the priest uses it YOU CAN DO NOTHING.
After that , just bend over and hope they have lube.


I probably shouldn't but I will respond to this.

All decks have a theme. be they murlocks or late game bombs or mid game pyro finish.
each deck in this game has a plan for victory.
a priest can. at the cost of 3 mana copy 2 random cards from his opponents theme. this is extremely inferior to drawing 2 cards from his own deck. lets look at the pro's and cons of that.

pro's for deck copying from opponent.
you see the opponents deck
if you don't own a legendary you have a chance to play with it(fun value)
get over the 30 card limit. barely.

now the cons
the cards are almost guaranteed to not work with your deck design.
they are random
you don't deck thin(meaning you don't get to your own answers faster)
you give up tempo (3 mana is a lot to have no effect on the field at all)
fatigue only matters if the opponent is a druid or fellow priest. no other deck should ever get into fatigue vs a priest. they lost way earlier if that happens.

honestly. thought steal sucks. I only throw it into my priest decks when I am sub rank 15 since I am playing vs bad enough players the tempo loss won't be that bad.
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Posts: 3,794
Arcane Intellect is an infinitely better card than thoughtsteal because it's a deck thinner. Having AI in your deck makes you get that one card that you really need (like flamestrike) faster, by two turns per one AI.
Thoughtsteal gives you two random cards from opponent's deck. It may give you a flamestrike. Or it may give you deadly poison. Or something in the middle, like starving buzzard. The point is: it's random, and you don't want that level of randomness in your deck. Well, you can make a fun gimmicky deck out of that, but I doubt it will be competitive.
There are cards that would work to full potential with any class, but in most cases having a real card in your deck is better than having thoughtsteal.
Fatigue is certainly not an issue you should keep in mind. Games rarely ever go on for so long that you run out of cards. For one game where you lost because you've drawn too many cards and died of fatigue, you will win more than ten games because of card advantage and deck thinning.
I would rather play against priests that have thoughtsteals, mind visions and mindgames than those who don't. Because former ones will most likely lose a great majority of games against decent decks.
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Posts: 1
My biggest problem with Thoughtsteal and Mind Vision is that 8/10 times they copy legendaries or epics.. I play paladin and it is always Tirion that ends up in my opponent´s hand. Have seen tons of Lay on Hands and Avenging Wrath stolen. It is true, most people find the randomness of the card not as beneficial and a lot of my friends have said they rather play something else instead of Thoughtsteal but they NEVER DO. If you find that card so horrible why does every single priest have it in their deck?

I tried to play priest myself.. to test the theory... first Thoughtsteal I used gave me Baron Geddon from another priest deck..And it was rather nice surprise... he took my Ysera on the other hand..Whenever I see Thoughtsteal played I get shivers...Playing against priest..imo..is like walking on a rope with hungry alligators beneath you whilst priest is holding a lighter under the rope laughing and burning rope, so you wonder if you gonna make it to the other side before rope burns or not. And then.. after you manage to get to safety.. he will just remove the platform you stand on with Mindcontrol.

I think they should determine some cards to be usable only in shadow form.. perhaps the MC and stealing cards should be more shadow spells rather than happy holy? Or.. Thoughsteal copies a card that has 5 or less mana and mind vision copies a card with 3 or less mana.. I dunno.. Do something..
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Posts: 27
^
Can you just stop fooling yourself and lieing to people plz
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Posts: 12
So imagine playing texas holdem.. you cannot see your opponents card, but not only does your opponent know whats in your hand, he can lean over and steal them from you. In this situation only a nut job would not fold. So.. I know its an imperfect analogy, and its very rng but more often than not you may as well gg. Especially late game. Moan moan.. Mind Vision is ok, I can live with that if u maybe sacrifice one of your own cards to compensate, likewise with thoughtsteal, maybe throw away or take damage equal to the attack value of the cards you take, still a tricky card to work around but at lest there is a penalty for using it. hehe i do suck at the game tho.. so maybe my input is moot :P
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Posts: 412
Like the other guy said, Mind vision is 1 for 1. You are missing the point there, there is no 4-6 card advantage and your "calculation" is wrong. I put 2 in my deck only to have a chance to copy the opponents cards, i lose 2 slots for something else i could have used that doesn't rely on RNG. Hell ive used MV hundreds of times as priest is my absolute favorite class and i would say 80% of the time i will snag garbage from them.

Thought steal is the exact same, but instead of 1 mana, its 3 mana and gives me 2 cards. Whether the cards came from the deck or the guys hand is irrelevant. Again i lose 2 slots in my deck to put that RNG crap in there for a small chance to land something i can use. The rare time it gets me something good is cause for great celebration.
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Posts: 263
As other posters have already noted, Mind Vision isn't a good card because although you can copy a card:

1) You don't know what the opponent is holding. It could be Ragnaros, or it could be Mark of the wild since the opponent is also topdecking.

2) You spend 1 mana to have the same card as your opponent. So basically no matter how awesome the card is, you still lose out because if they spend 8 mana on Tirion, you spent 9 mana on Tirion. And that's the best case scenario. Why not just put your own copy of Rag? Already have Rag? Why not Cairn, Mind Control, Sylvie, Sunwalkers, Ogres, Ysera, Deathwing etc. Basically if you're gonna use MV for end game, just get an end game card and put it at that slot.

Thoughtsteal, oth IMHO is a much better card, but I think it still balanced because you still have to spend mana on the card. While it does allow Priest access to other cards, IMHO if you/re complaining about IMBA on a copy card then that card should be the one that should be nerfed.
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Posts: 263
02/05/2014 06:09 AMPosted by bubbaste
So imagine playing texas holdem.. you cannot see your opponents card, but not only does your opponent know whats in your hand, he can lean over and steal them from you. In this situation only a nut job would not fold. So.. I know its an imperfect analogy, and its very rng but more often than not you may as well gg. Especially late game. Moan moan.. Mind Vision is ok, I can live with that if u maybe sacrifice one of your own cards to compensate, likewise with thoughtsteal, maybe throw away or take damage equal to the attack value of the cards you take, still a tricky card to work around but at lest there is a penalty for using it. hehe i do suck at the game tho.. so maybe my input is moot :P


WTF is your analogy? First of all it's not stealing it is copying, because you still have your own card. Secondly if a Priest puts a Mind vision in his deck he is already sacrificing a card slot, instead of putting his own card in the 30 card deck he is putting in mind vision. Finally it is only 1 card, if you have 3 cards I don't know which among it is your card.
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Posts: 4
10/22/2013 06:54 PMPosted by Derek
There are plenty of complaints about Priest right now, and while I do think they need a bit of tweaking, my complaint is not about the cards that tend to get the most criticism. Shadow Words and Mind Control can all be played around, even if it's difficult.

The cards I have a problem with are actually Mindvision and Throughtsteal.

First, they can't be played around. A Priest can copy an amazing card you drew into on turn one, after a mulligan. Thoughtsteal just copies from your deck, so there's nothing you can do there either.

Second, they allow the Priest to have access to cards they shouldn't otherwise have. It's pretty rough getting around things like the two copies of Ragnaros the Priest happened to copy (as happened to me many games ago), or the Polymorph and Flamestrike I got hit with last game.

Most importantly, though, it gives the Priest MASSIVE card advantage, which is devastatingly powerful for a control deck. In my experience, Priests tend to run the game down to the wire, where both opponents are left with next to no cards in their decks. In this scenario, Two copies each of Mindvision and Thoughtsteal give the Priest six extra cards in hand, without depleting their deck at all.

By comparison, the closest card to Thoughtsteal is the Mage's Arcane Intellect. Pay three, draw two. These two cards come from the Mage's own deck, though, thus depleting him closer to fatigue damage late game. This is something most Mages have to deal with if they're playing control (or against a control player): they're going to draw a lot, but at the expense of running out of cards late game.

The closest non-Priest card for the same cost is the Hunter's Flare, which is situationally nice, but in most games amounts to nothing more than a simple pay one, draw one. Again, though, this comes from the player's own deck.

It could certainly be argued that Priest can potentially draw into cards that do no good for them (e.g. "give your weapon +X/+X", etc.), but more often than not, they can put the cards to some kind of use. Even crappy beasts can be used as fodder, and sometimes they hit pure gold with the cards they luck into.

I am not claiming that these cards need to be removed from the game. I will never advocate such drastic changes to a game. I do, however, think the benefit the cards give them is insanely underrated and incredibly useful, and think the cost for both cards needs to be tweaked.

Thoughts?

Even with those cards, I'm still only hanging at about 50% win percentage. The hard part is surviving those first few rounds. I get useful cards nearly every time, but I don't always survive to use them. I thoughtsteal'd a Pyroblast last night and couldn't make it to round 10 to use it.
Edited by Skywalker on 2/5/2014 2:50 PM PST
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