Mortal Strike vs. Fireball

Posts: 781
Fireball- Basic card. 4 cost. 6 damage.
Mortal Strike- Rare card. 4 cost. 4 or 6 damage depending.

Really?
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Posts: 673
Yeah it should definitely cost 3
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Posts: 1,233
I think it might be interesting to make it 4 / 8 if below 10. Weaker than fireball or similar spells, but a hefty punch for relatively low cost if you're in the danger zone.
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Posts: 453
You also have to take into account that Warriors have weapons, mages don't.

Not every card can be looked at just by its mana value
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Posts: 781
You also have to take into account that Warriors have weapons, mages don't.

Not every card can be looked at just by its mana value


Being an advocate of card games for the last 10 years, I do understand this concept. How some cards are weaker for certain classes because of the class's other capabilities. But the same argument could be made for mages. How they can throw direct damage out without having to interact with minions, unlike warriors.

I am saying the power level is too much lower considering it is a rare.
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Posts: 61
Either the cost needs to be lowered to 3 or the damage when low needs to be higher than 6. (maybe 8)
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Posts: 673
Hearthstones current design leaves no room for any logical reason for why one class has a 4 mana for 6 direct dmg while a different class has 4 mana for 4 direct dmg, unless at 12 or lower win which case it is 6.

This card is plain weird currently and I expect it to change.
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Posts: 159
Said it before and I'll say it again, Mortal Strike should be "deals damage equal to weapon strength". It makes sense according to what the skill represents in WoW, and it makes sense considering warriors are built around weapons. Getting a "free" strike with your weapon is good in most situations.
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Posts: 3
When reading this thread i got an idea i just whant to put out there, how about replacing mortal strike with Raging Blow with the cardtext: deal damage equal to the amount of missing health on your minions. Maybe a bit to powerful if not restricted to targeting enemy minions though. Maybe 4-5 manacost?
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Posts: 751
Its a mage bonus to have better direct damage than the other classes.

Warriors also has a big bonus: weapons!
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Posts: 408
Fireball- Basic card. 4 cost. 6 damage.
Mortal Strike- Rare card. 4 cost. 4 or 6 damage depending.

Really?

Pyroblast - Epic card. 8 cost. 10 total damage.
Arcanite Reaper - Basic card. 5 cost. 10 total damage.

See how that works?
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Posts: 515
Fireball- Basic card. 4 cost. 6 damage.
Mortal Strike- Rare card. 4 cost. 4 or 6 damage depending.

Really?

Pyroblast - Epic card. 8 cost. 10 total damage.
Arcanite Reaper - Basic card. 5 cost. 10 total damage.

See how that works?


Pyroblast:
Not effected by taunt, take no damage when using on a minion, does it all in a single turn, scales with spell power.
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Posts: 3,189
Pyroblast:
Not effected by taunt, take no damage when using on a minion, does it all in a single turn, scales with spell power.

The underlined part is not always a bonus. Being able to split up that damage over two turns, and potentially between two targets, is an incredibly powerful thing in many situations. Just sayin'.
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Posts: 63
mortal strike was OP in WoW for so long, it deserves to be underpowered here
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Posts: 3,597
Fireball- Basic card. 4 cost. 6 damage.
Mortal Strike- Rare card. 4 cost. 4 or 6 damage depending.

Really?

Pyroblast - Epic card. 8 cost. 10 total damage.
Arcanite Reaper - Basic card. 5 cost. 10 total damage.

See how that works?


Very poorly?

The whole point of the comparison between Fireball and Mortal Strike is that the two cards are almost identical, except for one single difference. Pyroblast and Arcanite Reaper are only vaguely comparable.

The fact that you had to stretch so far to find something you could misrepresent as a counterpoint only underscores the fact that there is something significantly wrong with Mortal Strike. Blizzard worked pretty hard to prevent one card from being a strictly inferior copy of another card, even between classes. Even roughly similar cards tend to have special differences that mean even the less generally desirable one is at least sometimes arguably better, if the situation is right. The only exceptions I can think of are class cards vs. neutral cards, such as Voidwalker vs. Goldshire Footman.
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Posts: 408

Pyroblast - Epic card. 8 cost. 10 total damage.
Arcanite Reaper - Basic card. 5 cost. 10 total damage.

See how that works?


Very poorly?

The whole point of the comparison between Fireball and Mortal Strike is that the two cards are almost identical, except for one single difference. Pyroblast and Arcanite Reaper are only vaguely comparable.

The point that you seem to miss (or ignore, I don't know) is that we're comparing apples to oranges, in the first place.

Mortal Strike might be run in a deck that has access to Weapons, such as Fiery War Axe or Arcanite Reaper. Those things churn out more raw damage for the mana than any mage spell of comparable cost, they can potentially generate more card advantage than anything short of a boardwipe and they do not have a prerequisite (which would be the upside of not scaling with anything [aside from cards like Upgrade!, but I digress]).

Yes, you do take damage when taking out minions, which is offset by the cardadvantage you gain - and, more importantly, by the tempo advantage of being able to get rid of an enemy thread and still having mana available to play your own.

All the differences that arise from Mortal Strike and Fireball being played by entirely different classes in entirely different decks with entirely different measures to deal damage or take board control are being ignored as long as that supports the cause of "Fireball > Mortal Strike". Strangely, differences between cards are not being ignored when it's "Arcanite Reaper > Pyroblast". Double standards at their best, really.

Let me ask you this: If the Warrior is to be on par with the Mage when it comes to direct damage spells, is the Mage supposed to be on par with the Warrior in terms of weapons?

Either way, I'm all for buffing Warriors (I main one, after all), but Mortal Strike not being equal to (or better than) Fireball is far from one of the things I'd look at.
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Posts: 3,597


Very poorly?

The whole point of the comparison between Fireball and Mortal Strike is that the two cards are almost identical, except for one single difference. Pyroblast and Arcanite Reaper are only vaguely comparable.

The point that you seem to miss (or ignore, I don't know) is that we're comparing apples to oranges, in the first place.

Of course I was ignoring it. I was purely pointing out the serious flaw in your logic, comparing a weapon to a direct damage spell. If you had just said, "Warriors are not direct damage specialists, so Mortal Strike was made strictly inferior to Fireball to represent this fact," I wouldn't have entered the thread at all. You didn't. You made a completely spurious comparison between cards that have almost nothing in common. So I called you on it. You can make your point without bad comparisons, and while I might disagree with it, I would understand it.

Mortal Strike might be run in a deck that has access to Weapons, such as Fiery War Axe or Arcanite Reaper. Those things churn out more raw damage for the mana than any mage spell of comparable cost, they can potentially generate more card advantage than anything short of a boardwipe and they do not have a prerequisite (which would be the upside of not scaling with anything [aside from cards like Upgrade!, but I digress]).

Yes, you do take damage when taking out minions, which is offset by the cardadvantage you gain - and, more importantly, by the tempo advantage of being able to get rid of an enemy thread and still having mana available to play your own.

All the differences that arise from Mortal Strike and Fireball being played by entirely different classes in entirely different decks with entirely different measures to deal damage or take board control are being ignored as long as that supports the cause of "Fireball > Mortal Strike". Strangely, differences between cards are not being ignored when it's "Arcanite Reaper > Pyroblast". Double standards at their best, really.

I have to wonder if you are being serious here. Direct damage spells are naturally comparable to each other. They are not naturally comparable to weapons. Nor to minions. The question "Why is Mortal Strike strictly inferior to Fireball?" is a reasonable one. The answer may well be, as you say, because Warriors are not supposed to be good at direct damage, but it's a reasonable question to ask. The question "Why is Arcanite Reaper cheaper than Pyroblast when they both have the same potential damage output?" is complete nonsense. The cards themselves are so dramatically different by their very nature that they cannot be compared reasonably even if they were accessable to the same class.

Let me ask you this: If the Warrior is to be on par with the Mage when it comes to direct damage spells, is the Mage supposed to be on par with the Warrior in terms of weapons?

Well, there's no danger of that - Warriors have so much less access to good direct damage spells that it wouldn't matter what the devs did to Mortal Strike, they would still not be on par with the Mage. Which is the point. Class distinctions are maintained well enough by simple card access, the devs don't need to cripple the spells of a class to make them inferior to equivalent spells in another class, just give the non-specializing class fewer such spells.

Either way, I'm all for buffing Warriors (I main one, after all), but Mortal Strike not being equal to (or better than) Fireball is far from one of the things I'd look at.


It's certainly not some crushing burden Warriors suffer under. It is, however, something worthy of note. The devs have, as I said, gone to considerable lengths to make spells with equivalent effects different but not strictly inferior. Naturalize may be an awful card compared to Assassinate, but if you only have 1 mana left and have to eliminate one particular minion, it's still a better choice. In general less desirable, but not truly strictly inferior. This trend has carried through comparisons among different classes in every case I can think of except this one.

Were it standard practice to just give one class a purely inferior copy of another class's cards, the Mortal Strike/Fireball comparison would be much less interesting.
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Posts: 237
as a Warrior player, I don't think Mortal Strike has to be buffed.

Mages do deal direct damage. That's the primary feature of the class.

Warriors don't, hence their spell won't deal the same damage.

The same goes for other examples: A warlock can only deal AoE damage by destroying of their minions or dealing damage to everything.
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Posts: 130
I think its pretty obvious.
A combination like Gorehowl (6-1)+ mortal strike can be done in turn 8 dealing a total of 10-12 damage directly. Mages wont reach this (when killing a 7 Hp creature the turn before)

Comparing cards cant be done in a vaccuum. Warriors have acces to a lot of hard up front dmg (charge, weapons, direct dmg)
Mages have acces to control and direct dmg.

Im curious as to what other mechanics you find to be direct copies?
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Posts: 1,268
11/06/2013 09:13 PMPosted by Moncrief
You made a completely spurious comparison between cards that have almost nothing in common. So I called you on it. You can make your point without bad comparisons, and while I might disagree with it, I would understand it.
So did the OP. The only thing in common between mortal strike is that they both do direct damage. The difference is one is a mage card and one is a warrior card, which is a much bigger difference than pretty much any difference available in the game.

Taking your post as a whole, it seems you don't understand that individual class cards are not compared at all when balancing the game. The devs give the classes a certain toolkit and a theme to make that class do what they want and hopefully make the class as viable as other classes. The end result of trying to compare and balance individual class cards would be all classes doing exactly the same thing.
Edited by Larwood on 11/11/2013 4:42 AM PST
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