Way to improve Naturalize

Posts: 47
Aright so I've been carrying one Naturalize card in my Druid deck for a while.

I recently decided to drop it off since I found out I have never ever used it. 95% of the time its a dead card/ useless draw.

I only see 2 or 3 situations where Naturalize can be useful; when you have tremendous card advantage, when you are about to land the last blow(s) and there is a taunt in front of you and if you are incredibly behind and use it as a desperation move. Now in 2 of these 3 scenarios, Naturalize is still lacklusting compared to other card.

Now I don't want this to be a whiny thread so I was wondering what you guys think should be done to improve the card.

For my part, I think the mana cost of the card should be increased and the mana draw reduced to 1. Now I don't really know how suck a change should impact on the mana cost to be balance (2-3-4 mana?)

P.S. English esta no être my first language! Sorry for grammatical or orthographical mistakes

TL DR: Should Naturalize be improved? How? No whine plz!
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Posts: 1,463
Like you, I have taken all Naturalize cards out of my deck.

for Minions 5 or less health I have, Argent Commander, Swipe, Wrath, Claw, Starfire, and Starfall.

For minions with Greater than 6 health I have Big Game Hunter (the late game dragon legendaries, Ragnaros, etc...)

For Taunts I have Black Knight.

That's usually more than enough Removal that I'll ever need. But I think it would be too powerful if they changed it.
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Posts: 47
Even if it would be 4-5 mana?
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Posts: 204
Keep it the way it is and I guarantee in a new card set or two, it will be the backbone of a milling deck.
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Posts: 47
^^waht do you mean?
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Posts: 3,351
11/11/2013 12:11 PMPosted by Cptmeatballz
^^waht do you mean?


Milling deck is to force opponent to draw cards and empty their deck. In MTG when you run out of cards to draw you loose automatically. In this game you start to take damage when you can't draw. It's another endgame condition for a control deck.

Cheers,
CC-

EDIT: Merloc that forces both players to draw 2 cards would fall under this category as well. Wait until they come out with a minion that only allows Heroes to play one card per turn :D

EDIT2: The name originated from MTG card called MIllstone which makes your opponent remove the top 2 cards of their deck and place them into their graveyard aka discard pile.
Edited by CaptainCarl on 11/11/2013 12:25 PM PST
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Posts: 204
11/11/2013 12:11 PMPosted by Cptmeatballz
^^waht do you mean?


Currently, when your hand is full, any additional cards you draw are discarded immediately.

How mill decks work (name taken from an old MTG deck) is that they make you discard the top cards of your deck and focus on making you deck out.

Currently, with certain cards you can make an opponent go through 8 cards of their deck in short order. Adding in cards that will let you replay the murloc draw cards, can boost the number higher, though arguably rogues can do this more effectively (shadowstep). If blizzard adds in more cards with side effects that make your opponent draw cards, it could become a viable deck type.
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Posts: 1,463
5 mana + 1 card is a crappy assassinate

4 mana + 1 card I feel is still a bad card. Though maybe the most fair

3 mana + 1 card is Overpowered

2 mana + 1 card is Broken

...........

Just my thoughts. Can't remove the card draw and be unique from Rogue removal. And we already have spells

Wrath - 3 damage
Starfall - aoe or 5 damage
Swipe - aoe and 4 damage targeted
Starfire - 5 damage and card draw
Keeper of the grove - almost like SI agent

We have lots of removal as it is.........
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Posts: 937
OP, you forgot about the card's usefulness in mill decks.

I think Druids should be given more cards like this (force opponent draw) so that milling Druid decks become a legitimate strategy.

Current ( brewmasters + coldlight oracle ) milling tactic is a little too draw-dependant, even when coupled with Naturalizes.
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Posts: 47
Thank you guys, I you might have noticed, I am not an experienced card game player.

In fact, Hearthstone is the first card game I have ever played, so even the lexical is kinda new to me. Had no idea about the «milling» thing.

So if my opponent is collecting cards an has, say 9 cards, I'm basicaly destroying one of his.

So, if I understand correctly, this strategy need to be paired with a lot of removal cards?
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Posts: 1,463
Thank you guys, I you might have noticed, I am not an experienced card game player.

In fact, Hearthstone is the first card game I have ever played, so even the lexical is kinda new to me. Had no idea about the «milling» thing.

So if my opponent is collecting cards an has, say 9 cards, I'm basicaly destroying one of his.

So, if I understand correctly, this strategy need to be paired with a lot of removal cards?


Mill decks don't work as great in this game as it does in others.

The only cards that let your opponent draw cards are:

A Murloc
Naturalize
LoreMaster cho + Nourish (giving them Nourish to use).

I don't think you can make any competitive Mill deck.

Though I have been successful and making a bounce deck that keeps an opponents hand full, and his face full of frustration. Sapping, bouncing, vanishing everything back into his hand. And murloc card draw..... But it's a speed rush deck that fails if there is not a win around turn 8 or so.
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Posts: 949
I do think Naturalize should be improved.
How about we implement the "choice" Druids are known for to make the downside more flexible...


Here's my idea:
Naturalize, cost 1:

Choose One- Destroy a minion, your opponent draws 2 cards; or destroy a minion, summon a 1/4 Treant with Taunt for your opponent.


Thought Process:
Drawing 2 is similar to Arcane Intellect for Mages, which costs 3. Silverback Patriarch costs 3. Either give them 2 cards, or give them a taunt. In most cases where people wish Naturalize was good, it's to remove a minion much more formidable than a Silverback. Seems like a solid alternative.

And on the plus side, it stays useful for those cases where you just need to remove their taunt and giving them cards is of no consequence.

Another nuance to look out for is that the summon-taunt option should not be compared to Polymorph or Hex. You are still destroying the minion, which means Deathrattles and other "when a minion dies" effects will still trigger - Maintaining the uniqueness of "Naturalize".

Side-Note:
I thought of a cute new description - "If I plant a tree over your grave, they will never find you."


Mill decks don't work as great in this game as it does in others.

The only cards that let your opponent draw cards are:

A Murloc
Naturalize
LoreMaster cho + Nourish (giving them Nourish to use).


The popular "milling" strategy is to combo King Mukla with Brewmasters.
Giving your opponent a handful of useless bananas to hold onto as early as possible, shutting down their ability to draw new cards.

The class that does this best is Thief, due to having the cards "Sap" and "Vanish" to constantly return minions to their hand, filling it to the limit.
Edited by JunCurium on 11/11/2013 10:15 PM PST
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Posts: 1,463
I think the taunt is still too strong. It's basically a really cheap hex at that point. Way worth it even at a 1/4 taunt.
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Posts: 949
11/11/2013 09:58 PMPosted by Skaith
I think the taunt is still too strong. It's basically a really cheap hex at that point. Way worth it even at a 1/4 taunt.


You're overlooking the niche of the card and the style of the Druid.

Naturalize only costs 1 mana and eliminates any minion. Gurubashi with Divine Spirit, Turn 4 Venture Co., Ragnaros, those ever common snowballing Angry Chickens, any one of them gone with a single Naturalize.
It's there because every class needs some form of "easy" removal.

The Druid in particular, only needs such removal for big creatives. They have tons of other forms of removal for more fragile minions, ranging from buffing his own minions to board-wide AoE to attacking them himself with Shapeshift plus Claw.

The taunt is necessary so that it IS NOT just a cheap Hex.

----

EDIT:
Having read your previous post regarding simply increasing Naturalize's cost, I think you are just unhappy with cards with downsides.
You must find playing Warlock absolutely intolerable then, huh?
Edited by JunCurium on 11/11/2013 11:06 PM PST
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Posts: 9
There is a metagame in which naturalize is a good card.
Sadly it is a very different metagame than our current Novice Engineer/Shattered sun Cleric/Argent Comander metagame.
Right now naturalize is very good against priest control decks, where the match almost never comes down to card by card grind but rather to tempo advantage and board control
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Posts: 224
Aside from changing it completely the only thing I can think of would be to let you target your own minions with it so you can use it to kill off a useless minion and draw some cards yourself with it.

I'd still probably never run it but it could potentially be useful in a druid murlock deck or something.
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Posts: 2
Personally i think it could be a useful card, if only it were on par to similar cards in other decks. Im talking about polymorph for the mage and hex in the shaman deck, both of these cards essentially condemns whichever minion you've used it on; however there is no secondary effect when using it.

The drawing of the cards after, almost always ensues a battering from the opposing player due to the games fast pace, and a game can easily be turned round in two cards; I would either take the draw two cards effect out, or simply turn the card into, i dunno a lesser treant with +1/+1 similar to the aforementioned cards.
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Posts: 1,463
@junCurium

I don't think cards with downsides are bad. I think that you are WAY BUFFING Naturalize. No one wants them to draw 2 cards, so every druid wants it changed right? But is this really good for the game?

We have
claw 2 damage
bite 4 damage
wrath 1-3 damage
swipe 4 damage target and 1 aoe
Starfall 5 damage target or 2 aoe
Starfire 5 damage target AND draw a card

So the druid already has a lot of high mana cost cards. And simply increasing mana is not enough "downside" to balancing the card. I'll take it to 5 mana and have it just be like assassinate if you want.

In my post the most fair I thought would be 4 mana and they draw one card. But this would need LOTs of testing in my opinion.
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Posts: 3,351
I think Naturalize is great for certain decks mainly aggro or rush. It 1 cost get you past that Taunt during the kill turn so you don't have to spend the 2 for the silence and you can Roar away. But yes like many have eluded to its a specialized card given its drawback.

I do like the idea using it on one of your minions if you have too for that extra card draw.

Cheers,
CC-
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