pyroblast is a problem
2 spells, 10 mana, 13 damage = pyroblast
5 spells, 10 mana, 20 damage = frost bolt x2, ice lance x2, fireball x1
People are upset because "mages nuke" *gasps*. Nice, but what do we do for our minions? Can we heal? Are we extremely damaging in the early game?
If we didn't have those nukes, the class would be absolute garbage.
Pyroblast takes up almost an entire mana bar and it only does 10 damage. I prefer not to use it unless I have to. Mind you, I keep two in my deck just in case, but they're not there because they're my bread and butter. My bread and butter are THE OTHER 28 CARDS IN MY DECK!
Pyroblast is fine. It does what it should.
for me bigest problem against mage is when i see archmage antonidas. If pack is made around that card it is pretty hard to win against mage if you fail in rashing her.
I wont say it is OP card but it happens very often that late in the game it is very hard to kill that minion with all those fireballs which that card gives to mages.
the topic of the post isn't about how gameplay affects what cards can be played, the OP is complaining about the damage pyroblast does, i gave a counter arguement, which apparently u feel isn't relevent, (which, actually, it is), that does the exact same thing as the above mentioned mage spell, there are many examples of how other classes can pull a nasty combo to burn the hero HP directly, yet u feel the need to ignore them entirely for some unknown reason, once u gain some perspective, come back and argue some more, until then, do us all a favour and keep ur "battle in a bottle" mentality to urself.
I will say my own pyroblast story.Imo the card itself is broken and more broken than other cards.
Anyway the story is as follows,i was playing my druid and outplaying the mage .2 cards in his hand 0 minions and i had 5 with at least 5 or more hp.12 hp and me 20.He plays pyroblast and frost nova.im thinking who cards still 10 hp i will shield one dmg and wait for the next turn to finish him.he topdecked a 2nd pyroblast and hero power finished me.Whole game for him was stalling me and doing 10 dmg to me in10 turns...basically 1 dmg per turn .
I dont think there is another class or ability or minion that can do 20 dmg in 2 turns with 2 cards.
People often complain about mindcontrol or uth.Truth is in my opinion ofc that the most broken card in game is pyroblast.8 dmg means he can play a 2mana spell(or hero power).Spell means he can bypass taunt.10dmg means 1/3 of the game unless we are speaking about healing or armor classes where it will be a bit less 1/4 of the game.Biggest issue is you get 2 of em.
In masters 2 i play atm,every mage runs 2 pyroblasts.im fine with antonidas fireballs frostbolt and everything .all classes got sth similar.but pyroblast is just way off.
i was comparing other 8 cost epic cards just to see.
Druid(no 8 cost card) 7 instead big taunt or big atck guy that has to wait 1 turn and doesnt bypass taunts and can be countered.
Lock twisting nether.destroys ur minions too and does 0 dmg.
Rogue...kidnapper is the closest i think,returns a minion to its owner s hand....epic just epic
Priest...erm cebal shadowpriest grabs a 2 atck minion...
paladin avenging wrath i assume avenging wrath can be compared,only problem dmg is random and it chooses minions mostly.
hunter...just for the fun of it king crush is a 8/8 minion with 9 cost that has charge.so in a clear board its 8 dmg and has its counterattacks(taunts)
shaman... i supposed earth elemental(op card too imo) but has to wait 1 turn and does 7 dmg if it doesnt get remove.and reduces ur mana by 3 next turn
Warrior Gorehowl 7 dmg but it is a weapon,meaning it can get removed,and hits u when u use it.
Now lets say the people that say pyroblast is fine.how do u counter it?Even if u have 1 its 10 dmg.Mages may lack a lot of class minions but they got really good minion removal and can use neutral minions to fill their decks.the lack of class minions doesnt mean lack of minions.
If you play a mage you know you can do 30 hp on players with only 6 cards(if u use em all on players.)pyroblast fireball x2 =32 dmg with buffs.obviously u cant always use em all on players so u keep the board control.But thats why there are more.frost bolt ice lance and hero power.with these 4 cards and their copies u can do insane dmg to your opponent.it also leaves u with 20 cards to reduce incoming damage till u draw em.
Proposed change for pyroblast :
Make it a 10cost card so u cant play anything if u decide to use it and hope for the best.
Make it an 8 damage spell 7 cost.it will still do enough damage and u can pair it with secrets or other spells.
first off, i'm from EU.
he didn't by a long shot, in fact, what he did do was actually back up my rebuttle unwittingly, and he failed to disprove anything, but it was a good try.
lastly: if you have nothing to add to the thread, stay out of it, people like you are just a waste of space, next time you feel the urge to try and jump on some internet bandwagon, try really hard to think first, if you can manage it.
I seriously don't believe you had board control and lost to a mage casting pyroblast and nothing else two turns in a roll. In order for the mage to cast pyro two turns in a roll and nothing else, he needs board control. It is not a easy spell to find room to cast. Stop lieing to help your case vs a card that cost you one loss or learn to win faster.
Thank you, Hippy, for your post. But let me explain, why I think most of the points you raised really do not matter:
Again, there are ways to counter the damage coming from buffed minions. The most obvious counter is summoning sickness, since it delays that damage and allows you to react to it.
Second of all, most damage can be prevented by removal or absorbed by taunts, again, allowing you to react to it.
Pyroblast has nothing of that sort. You just eat it that turn right there and that is it. No counterplay, nothing you can do about it at all, nothing!
Which is why I argue to remove it completely and replace it with something else entirely. It's a badly designed card that allows you to come back from absolutely hopeless situations merely by top-decking it.
Once brought to 11, most classes will be in a permanent state of almost-instant-death. It's frustrating to face and there simply isn't anything you can do about that.
It's, again, 1/3 of your TOTAL HP, dude! That's absolutely nuts!
1. ...board control...
All of this has absolutely nothing to do with the card itself.
Again, as I said before, most classes simply cannot effectively put healing minions in their decks, let alone healing spells, something only a handful of classes can utilize.
Edited by Hatter on 11/27/2013 2:59 PM PST
You saying your argument is relevant doesn't mean it is. I explained to you why it is.
Since you are having a hard time following it, I will give you some more of my time.
For starters, Let me say: Yes, all sorts of combos across classes are "possible" that do insane damage. I play shaman. You can do all sorts of double rockbiter, flame tongue totems, combined with windfury onto charging and stealthed mobs that can come out of nowhere for a lot of burst.
Or you can use multiple divine spirits and inner fury to buff a card up to do a lot of damage as a priest. Or your ridiculously unfeasible suggestion of running mind blasts with or prophet velen to do mind blast burst.
What do all these things have in common with each other, but not with pyroblast? Multiple cards.
So, that means two things: The ability to use them in such a synergized way is very situational because it is not going to be a typical game where you have the conditions of A) having all the cards at the same time B) not having used any, or all of them, in some previous turn engagement and C) the perfect time to use them arises.
Pyroblast is just..one card. When you pull pyroblast, you essentially circumvent all the other conditions that the other classes have to jump through to replicate it's damage.
But wait, there is more.
You have to then look at and evaluate the class from a bigger perspective and look at all their available tools. How does does playing against a mage who is running pryoblast typically play out?
If we had the ability to actually rush you guys down and put pressure on you before you can start taking out 1/3 of our HP with one spell per turn, it would be an entirely different story. You guys have insane ability to control the board and stall the game with frost novas, blizzards, cone of cold, polymorphs, the flexibility of fireballs (mobs or hero), along with your own minions, which are amazing tbh. Manawyrm and water elementals are really hard to deal with on their own; let alone when being paired with your spells.
You guys hide hard hitting creatures behind mirror images as you constantly remove our new stuff placed on the board trying to "get" to your hero before the pyroblast party starts. As soon as we build the board up again to start putting pressure on your hero, it gets wiped out or freeze stalled.
And by the time, we have been able to finally get through all the freezes, AEs, polymorphs, minions, we are at sub 15 health. And now, you win with one card.
I promise you mage is not staying the way it is, and you will be hit hard by the nerf hammer coming soon. At least when that happens, you can look back to this thread to know your defense of this spell and class was very biased.
LOL @ backed up your rebutal. You very own sentence fit the hard definition of an oxymoron. You said "buffed by priest velen" is not a prerequisite.
Really, your issue imo is you fail to look at pyro as part of the mage tool box as a whole and claim that current counters are ineffective Mages tend to run spell heavy decks making mages the easiest class to deal damage to via minions. Even if pyro was reduced to 2 damage or had increased mana cost you as a player would still have the same problem.
So lets get back to what I suggested.
1. board control. You get 1/3 of your deck to put yourself in a better position than the mage.
2. Mage AOE is a counter to board control. Before turn five using minions with 2+ hp, after turn five 3+ hp, and after turn seven 5+ hp increase your chances of survival. Also staggering minions into play to ferret out aoe is helpful
3. Taunting cards make it even harder for Mages to gain board control and can often force them to burn direct damage spells on minions just to prevent tons of damage on themselves.
4. Having a healing card should be seen in the same light as having a taunt, or a card that destroys weapons, or a card that silences minions. Healing minions can not only pull you out of consecutive spell kill range but allows you to maintain board control. If I have a deck that is weak against weapon decks, I will add harrison jones or some oozes. If you have a deck that you find time and time again is getting killed by double pyro (sic) then perhaps you need to explore survivability options for that deck.
no, i never said anything of the sort, i IMPLIED that under the effects of prophet velen buff, a mind blast hits for the same damage, unmitigated by anything short of counterspell/spellbender, and does the exact same thing as pyroblast, and as u have just said in the post above, there are many combo's in game that can do the same, and HIGHER damage as pyroblast, by multiple classes, the arguement here IS NOT whether the scenario to pull off said combo's is possible, but that they occur in the first place, so complaining about taunts mitigating minions etc, is irrelevent in this arguement, because we are not talking about game limitations, we are talking about comparisons between classes relating to 1 card in the mage deck, and how each class compares, and on paper, each class has its' own decastating combo that can kill any enemy hero in 1-2 turns given optimal conditions, it is just seen more from mages as it is "easier" to accomplish this state than other classes, ergo the problem isn't the card, it is the game as a whole, and nerfing pyroblast damage, will be met with a buff to the mana cost, making more of a pain earlier in the game than it currently is, and complaining about board clear, all classes have some form of board clear, and can buff said board clear with minions, so complaining about this particular section is a waste of time and effort, since there is nothing wrong with it, for any class, only class that is hampered slightly is warrior, but other than that, every class is fine.
Keeping a 7/7 legendary until turn 9 is not a big deal.
You can launch that 2 mana cost pyroblast quite comfortably at 9.
No counterplay? Have a heal spell? Problem solved. and as for hunters throw some taunters out turn 6-8 that's what they exist for. Honestly learn to adapt. And guess what? Taunters and heal spells will still be useful against other classes!
So playing minions and getting "board control" help you when 10 damage comes to your face? A heal spell would do that. Your just not willing to add 1 or 2 cards that could fix your problem and instead complain that it needs to be changed. Spells are just as much a threat as minions.
Minions counter heals
Spells counter minions
Heals counter spells
Rock paper and scissors.
Everyone who keeps suggesting heal spells is off their rocker. Heal spells as a general rule of thumb are TERRIBLE. They don't remove any threats. They just stall and delay your loss.
Just because you typed rock paper scissors doesn't mean that is how the game actually operates. You honestly have no idea what you are talking about.
Please name the SPECIFIC heal spells that you think are valuable. My contention is that they are total trash, don't remove any threats and only delay, they are situational, and cannot even come close to keeping pace of mage damage or even damage in general. If you just ate a bunch of damage from minions on board and you respond by healing, you are going to eat all that damage again next turn.
Tell me what are some examples of minions that you would remove from your deck and what heal spells you would put in there. You can give me examples from several different classes.
You can also perhaps touch upon how these heal spells would help us in dealing with other classes that we queue into such as agro warlocks, hunter UTH decks, paladins etc. How this new source of healing is going to help us win now that we have replaced these crappy minions that have been holding us back.
Mage literally has an answer for everything and they will be nerfed hard. Mark my words.
Edited by Zzod on 11/27/2013 9:27 PM PST
ancient of lore battlecry heal
earthen ring farseer battlecry heal
darkscale healer battlecry heal
lightwell minion power passive
circle of healing
voodoo doctor battlecry heal
should i go on or just stop with these?
also i feel the need to make this point, because i simply can't help myself:
lets say for arguement sake, you take 2 darkscale healer minions, a 4/5 power minion, throw in a sunfury protector/defender of argus, and u have 2 very powerful taunt creatures that are hard to take down and offer not only healing to all friendly units, but a physical barrier to all minion attacks, or a druid using mark of the wild/mark of nature, same thing, just a little more powerful, so ur arguement about healing "just delaying the inevitable" is totally bogus and just there to try and make ur point seem valid.
Edited by Rogoth01 on 11/27/2013 10:24 PM PST
Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:
Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.
Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.
Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.