Serious priest criticism (MC)

Posts: 18
Every time i play a priest, they MC my strongest and I immediately leave. Often times Ive got more health. Soon ill leave as soon as i see one. It is not fun playing against a priest, it is not fun playing as a priest, except for always winning, and MC could be tossed and they would still be a powerful class.

Making mind control cost 10 would not make a damn difference. Its often late in the game when minion trades are the most vital, and to have a card that effectively +1 you -1 them (and all the work they took to keep alive/ beef it up) is simply too powerful in this game.

The fix is incredibly obvious. Mind control is not permanent in the Warcraft universe, so why would it be here. ESPECIALLY here. Make it cheaper, and make it last one turn, or two turns, or make it die after, whatever the hell you want. As long as it isn't permanent.

In MTG, mind control is (A) An aura that can be removed, and (B) not as influential due to the simple fact that one cannot directly attack an opponent as long as they can block with their own creature (except all the bypassing mechanics).

9/10 times a priest mind controls my Stormwind Champion and steamrolls me. No i will not stop putting stormwind champion into my deck, and yes there are plenty of removal spells. Most of them are in the hands of the priest.

Oh and btw their draw capabilities/copy card from opponent is a little iffy too.
Reply Quote
Posts: 663
What class are you playing? I'm quite curious. I can probably pinpoint the play errors leading up to turn 8. I know it can't be Warrior / Mage / Shaman who all destroy Priests (or gg the board state) before T8. Probably a Warlock

Why are you dropping your wincon against a priest that is about to hit 8 mana with 4 cards in hand (I or they will have a kill spell, MC, or a utility card in hand).

If them stealing Stormwind causes you to lose then 9 times out of 10 you were already losing the match via board position and lack of removal in your hand.

About your suggestion: Steal a creature for 1 turn? They already have that card. It even gives the creature Charge (it doesn't say that, but it does). Or Cabal Shadow Priest.

They can't make MC kill the creature a few turns later. Priests are not Warlocks. MC @10 prevents them from healing or playing any cards the turn they steal it and prevents it for TWO turns. Most priests are dead on board if they NEED the MC to win. Typically MC will swing board position heavily in their favor (ala Stormwind. or stealing the only Taunt) rather than invalidate the game state.

If you can't handle MC it is completely your fault. Every time I have lost following an MC it has been because I wasn't 'winning' and simply playing catch-up.

Your assessment of MTG is slightly incorrect. Yes, the literal card "Mind Control" (which is only played in draft and is considered a Mythic Uncommon) is an aura. However, a lot of MC type effects have the moniker "While [This card] is still in play". A few of which are still played in a few formats (Sower of Temptation sees play in most formats including EDH). I would be quite interested in MC being a debuff that can be silenced away to return the creature. MC's mana cost would have to be adjusted to 6 to account for the silence-option. I'd even be cool with the creature getting a stat penalty, or the MC saying "Silence creature. Gain control of it".

11/30/2013 02:24 PMPosted by BungusKhan
(B) not as influential due to the simple fact that one cannot directly attack an opponent


No, that is exactly how MTG works. You attack players (or 'walkers) directly. Most of the time you're stealing a creature that is BIGGER than the other creatures or has some huge advantage or you are looking to 2-for-1 (or 3/4/5-for-1) the opponent. Damage in MTG falls off at the end of every as well. The majority of players aren't going to Chump Block a stolen creature if they have outs or something they can do in a turn or so and may just attempt to race the enemy (or swing in, then clear the entire board and take the play as a netsum 1-for-1).

Your post isn't even a criticism of MC. Its more of a whine about "I had 1 creature in play on T8 and the big mean priest stole it and bashed my face in with his 3 dudes that were in play. If he didn't steal it he just used SW:Death on it. and NO, I won't change my playstyle or tactics to adapt to my enemy. Instead, I'll just hit the concede button and cry on the forums" . The majority of your other posts are just "Priests are OP Blizzard plz nerf cry cry cry QQQ".

Priests can't beat rushdown spell decks like a good mage deck. They also have a super hard time beating a rushdown Shaman. Those things are scary.

I have NEVER had a Priest (I play one) beat a Rogue deck that Conceals their creatures the turn before the Priest hits 8 mana. Almost every Priest spams "Well Played" and concedes.
Reply Quote
Posts: 18
Usually a paladin. And why shouldn't I drop a card, that's the argument I mocked quite clearly. "Don't play the card then" is not an argument. Certainly it is a strategy against a priest, which i use, but i wont not play my beefy cards till i see the priest use up one or both of his MC/utility/whatever.

"I had 1 creature in play on T8 and the big mean priest stole it and bashed my face in with his 3 dudes" Yes, you are saying if a priest has board control then MCs he has more board control. If I have a 15/15 windfury out and you have nothing, you MC, you will probably win. Saying I dont have enough removal is an invalid argument. I can have maximum removal for my class (the priest has the most of any class) and not have any of them because they were used or not drawn.

In MTG draft is a way of playing a tourney, mythic is a rarity, uncommon is a rarity. Yes a lot of MC mechanics are from creatures, and those creatures can be removed and the creature returned. The key to my point is that there are other ways of resolving the MC issue (not resolving in the game's sense, if you actually know MTG) and getting your creature returned to you.

As for the quote you used, that is what I said and what I meant. I suggest rereading before you rant.

Yes an aggro deck (again MTG lingo) will do well against a priest, and no i wont create a deck purely to combat priests. I will adjust my deck to combat all decks in general tho.

Your last bit there is you crying about people crying about priests. Then you say priests never beat a rogue in a certain scenario that is absolutely not a guarantee of loss and is a wild exaggeration. You in effect provide no valid argument as to the fairness of MC.

Your only valid notion is that aggro can beat priests. Your knowledge of MTG is laughable, and you didn't quite understand my post. Honestly if you cant see that MC might be a little overpowered then I don't think you are worth talking to.
Reply Quote
Posts: 676
Aggro decks are winning tournaments left and right. They are the best decks right now. Not only do they beat priests, but they beat most everything else that isn't also an aggro deck.

Why is it you think priests are op when in reality they are one of the worst classes right now?

And please, take Stormwind Champion out of your deck. It isn't even a good card in arena, there is no way you should be running it in constructed. That is why you lose to priest, you are playing crappy high cost cards that do nothing the turn they come into play. You are just setting yoruself up to get wrecked by Mind Control (or Polymorph, or Hex, or Assassinate, etc)
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,111
Mind control is definitely not too strong at all. Then again I try to avoid running more then 2-3 big creatures. Idk I mean if you play a big creature and know the priest has MC then......don't play it? You both have dead cards in eithers hands essentially and if he blows it on a average creature then play your big dude.
Reply Quote
- Hearthstone
Posts: 11,007
Every time i play a priest, they MC my strongest and I immediately leave. Often times Ive got more health. Soon ill leave as soon as i see one. It is not fun playing against a priest, it is not fun playing as a priest, except for always winning, and MC could be tossed and they would still be a powerful class.

Making mind control cost 10 would not make a damn difference. Its often late in the game when minion trades are the most vital, and to have a card that effectively +1 you -1 them (and all the work they took to keep alive/ beef it up) is simply too powerful in this game.

The fix is incredibly obvious. Mind control is not permanent in the Warcraft universe, so why would it be here. ESPECIALLY here. Make it cheaper, and make it last one turn, or two turns, or make it die after, whatever the hell you want. As long as it isn't permanent.

In MTG, mind control is (A) An aura that can be removed, and (B) not as influential due to the simple fact that one cannot directly attack an opponent as long as they can block with their own creature (except all the bypassing mechanics).

9/10 times a priest mind controls my Stormwind Champion and steamrolls me. No i will not stop putting stormwind champion into my deck, and yes there are plenty of removal spells. Most of them are in the hands of the priest.

Oh and btw their draw capabilities/copy card from opponent is a little iffy too.


You're wrong in various ways and clearly know little about the class. I'll mention by the way that you should try PLAYING the class first, it might give you a different perspective.

1) If you leave everyone an opponent MC's your strongest minion, you'll never learn how to deal with it. This is an aspect of the class. It would be like saying I leave every time a Rogue drops an Assassin Blade or a Paladin casts Blessing of Kings.

2) You need to learn to play around MC, that's part of the mechanic of the class. If you drop a big minion when you have nothing else on the table, he's probably going to MC it and you're going to lose. You need to make sure that if the opponent MC's a minion you can handle it. That means either building up starting at smaller minions so that you have enough on the table to kill off anything that gets MC'd, or pocketing a removal card. Remember that when a Priest MC's that's basically the only thing they can do that turn.

3) It's stupid to say that mana doesn't make a difference. Cards are balanced around mana cost, a +2 cost to mana is incredibly huge. You're so blinded by your ignorant rage of the card that you seem to think it'll be strong no matter what the cost is; but the fact that you literally cannot do ANYTHING else on the turn, is huge.

4) If you think that "copied" cards are a strength of the Priest class, then you're a fool. If anything it's a weakness of the class.

5) More health doesn't mean winning in this game. That's a newb way of thinking. You win when your opponent's health hits zero. That's it. It is a VERY common occurrence in this game for the eventual winner to lose a lot of health early on, because the opponent is attempting to rush them down and goes for the opponent directly instead of trying to gain a board position. This is often misinterpreted as "winning".
Edited by Sar on 11/30/2013 9:39 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 111
dont play big creatures ? maybe those ppl who concede when they play against preist are actualy right.

Sad thing is that is best choice. But if i made deck which can kill priest pretty quickly than i am weak against some other races. And i dont think MC is OP, MC with combination with other priset cards are OP. There is allways solution when you write on forum, but you cant change deck when you see priest as a oponent.

If i need to play allways same deck to be able to defeat priest than whole game is defeated, no point playing this anymore.
Reply Quote
Posts: 18
Thank you for the succinct post. I'll respond to it by the numbers:

1) This is true, I shouldn't leave every time, but MC is more powerful than assassin's blade or BoK. I could double BoK a creature then you MC. Anything I do to that card throughout the entire game is mana spent. So lets say ive spent 15 mana on one creature to cast it, keep it alive, buff it up, even protect it with other minions. If you consider protecting the card as mana cost, which I would, then the total spent on it would skyrocket. Then you cast one card and take ALL that spent mana for yourself. In effect a 20 mana "valued" card would be purchased or stolen, however you wish to look at it, by the MC.

2) I do try and work around the mechanics of a priest, I even try and include more 4 attack minions and buff them up to 4 when facing a priest. When I drop a big minion with any amount of minions on the table, he will take it, it doesnt matter how many I have. I put out monsters because thats my pally deck style, and it works well. By the end turns I dont have many cards,so not many possibilities on what to put out, tho this is a problem with my deck I could address.

3) As you said before, the priest can pretty much only do MC that turn when they cast it, making it ten would keep it that way, except for the possible one/two cards.

4) Personally I would want that priest card that copies two cards out of opponents deck. It doesnt contribute to a possible overdrawing in long matches, and is a draw 2 for 3 mana, like the mage's arcane intellect. Albeit it does copy cards that could not mesh with your own, but that fine by me.

5) I understand, and I'll try and make this clear. This card grants board control, which wins games...usually.
Reply Quote
Posts: 55
There should be a negative effect if you Mind control like less health or even make it 10 mana. Its so rediculous dieing to stuff that was your and hes free to do whatever since a shadow word pain is coming out the next turn. Blizzard fix the game.
Reply Quote
- Hearthstone
Posts: 11,007

1) This is true, I shouldn't leave every time, but MC is more powerful than assassin's blade or BoK. I could double BoK a creature then you MC. Anything I do to that card throughout the entire game is mana spent. So lets say ive spent 15 mana on one creature to cast it, keep it alive, buff it up, even protect it with other minions. If you consider protecting the card as mana cost, which I would, then the total spent on it would skyrocket. Then you cast one card and take ALL that spent mana for yourself. In effect a 20 mana "valued" card would be purchased or stolen, however you wish to look at it, by the MC.


Saying that MC is more powerful than Assassin Blade is like saying that Onyxia is stronger than Silver Hand Recruit; yes, it is, it costs twice as much mana (roughly) so it's going to be a lot stronger.

Mind Control is an overpowered card (unless the opponent runs no big monsters, which is possible but unlikely), but it's an overpowered card in a class that has under a 50% win rate; i.e. the class as a whole is weak despite being propped up by an overpowered card. It's important to learn to play around MC; that's how you learn to beat it. If you quit everytime someone plays MC, then you'll never learn to beat it.

And that's my point with things like Assassin Blades. Cards like this can be game enders too, especially if they get Deadly Poison on it, since that's 20 damage to your hero that can't be blocked without taunt or weapon destruction. The point is that these are cards that the class is likely to play, and players still manage to beat them a lot, so it's a matter of you have to learn how to deal with it.

I'll say with Mind Control, by the way, that your strategy of using your big minions is part of your problem. You're talking about protecting/buffing your big minions, but that's the type of thing you DON'T do against a Priest who still has Mind Controls left. You actually want to do the opposite, and attempt to make your big minions "damaged goods", as I call it. That is, for example, if you have a Giant on the table, try to chip away at your own Giant's health a bit. Priests don't have much in the way of direct damage, so making it be at 5 health is unlikely to result it in being killed when it would normally survive (possible, but unlikely); if they're going to destroy it, it will usually be with either a removal spell or they'll steal it. If you make your big minion's "damaged goods", it reduces the value of what they steal and makes it easier for you to kill off. Of course, you can't do this the turn you play the minion usually, so if you play a minion and it immediately gets stolen this won't work. But often you will have the opportunity to have your big minions on the board for a turn or two, either because they don't have mana to cast MC that turn or they have other priorities. This will be doubly true when MC becomes a 10-mana card since they won't be able to MC it then heal it.

But the last thing you want to do is make some big, pristine super-minion that's all buffed up and such. Frankly, against most classes you don't want to do that, because that makes your target incredibly vulnerable to things like Assassinate. But this goes doubly so with Priests since you're just giving them a better target to MC. Remember, they're going to mc SOMETHING, and they're probably not going to waste it on something weak unless desparate; but you can still minimize how good any one minion is.

On a side note, you may notice that skilled Paladin players will do things like put Blessing of Wisdom on a Silver Hand Recruit (not against classes that can ping for 1 damage of course). And you may have wondered why they don't do this to their big minion on the table. It's for the same reason. Making a single super-buffed big target makes it an obvious target for removals and silences. By putting something like a Blessing of Wisdom on a token, they often force the player to divert resources they wouldn't normally waste on a little 1/1 to ensure it doesn't keep drawing, and beyond that, if they do silence/remove the big minion, it's one less card that gets destroyed in the process (the blessing that is).
Reply Quote
Posts: 111
good advices.

problem is that preast can heal MC-ed minion so that job with damaging your minions works in maybe 20-30%

Best case scenario is that you have 2 good removals and in that case you will lose 4 cards for priest 2 MC's. If those removals cant do job (for example my strongest minion is 6/6 and most races dont have removal for that card) than you practicly lost match. Even if you kill "your" minion and losing 3-4 cards you wil at the end lose in 90% of matches.
Reply Quote
- Hearthstone
Posts: 11,007
good advices.

problem is that preast can heal MC-ed minion so that job with damaging your minions works in maybe 20-30%

Best case scenario is that you have 2 good removals and in that case you will lose 4 cards for priest 2 MC's. If those removals cant do job (for example my strongest minion is 6/6 and most races dont have removal for that card) than you practicly lost match. Even if you kill "your" minion and losing 3-4 cards you wil at the end lose in 90% of matches.


MC will usually, at best, be a 2:1. The nature of the card makes this very hard to prevent with the exception of Big Game Hunter.

There's a lot of class cards like that. For example, Argent Protector is also a 2:1 card. People often forget about this because, since he's a 2-cost card, you often see him played in the early game. But if you have 2 giants staring each other down, Argent Protector lets you slam 1 into the other, and you don't even lose a card in the process, making it a 2:1. The only difference is that Protector has the potential to be used in the early game, so you think of it as an early game card, but it's just as potent in the late game.

Gladiator's Longbow is a 2:1. It's a tad more restricted in the sense that it won't kill things with more than 5 health (though it can contribute) but still, it's a 2:1 that you basically can't stop.

Twisting Nether is an X:1 pending how big the board is. Got 2 big minions on the board? Twisting Nether kills them both, and potentially more.

The main point being, people focus on MC, and I actually do tend to agree that it's a bit overpowered, but it's also by far not the only 2:1 card against large minions in the game.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]