Possible improvements to the Rogue Power

Posts: 19
The hero power for the rogue currently stands as (equip a 1/2 weapon). This is, to me, the weakest and most useless hero power there is.

Here's the problem I see with the rogue power = you can't use it every turn. In every other class, a playable strategy includes using the first 2 mana every turn to activate your power, each of which plays into at least on of the possible strategy's you can play with that class. This is not the case with the rogue. After the first time you play the hero power, every second turn all you're doing is refilling the health to the blades, which is actually pointless. If you want to get the blades back to full health, its better strategy to just wait a turn, use the 2 mana left to play another card, and give yourself full blades at the beginning of the next turn instead. This flaw in the powers is the only thing I hate about playing rogues, due to the fact that every other class I can use my power if there's nothing else left. It is also massively disadvantageous if you already have a weapon equipped. So if you already have assassins blade active, activating the hero power now is less then useless (to be honest I've actually made this mistake myself). No other hero power limits you like this.

The way I see it, there's a few options options that the developers can do to fix this problem. I'd like to hear your suggestions to, but keep in mind that all the powers (with the exception of the mage, due to the freedom of that power) all have to do with a value of 2.

1) The first option is perhaps the simplest = simply change the power back to the way it was. I've been following Hearthstone for a while, and I remember that the original power played to the rogues combo strategies. Originally the power would change whether or not you had used it in that last turn/had the base weapon equipped. if you did, the power would change to (give weapon +2 attack). (Note: I am apparently wrong here, and I am corrected about this in a later post). This effect would keep stacking if you then didn't use the weapon again, and you could easily get a 11/1 weapon equipped if you constantly used the power 5 turns in a row. I personally would prefer this option to the others I talk about because not only does it work to the rogues (and my) play style of thinking ahead & comboing cards, but its not actually overpowered as by using the power twice/three times, the average always ends up being 2 damage per 2 mana used when you finally use the blade a second time.

2) The second option is also rather simple = switch the weapons stats and make it a 2/1 weapon instead. This would be effective as being able to do to 2 damage every turn instead of every 2 turns is infinitely more useful in every way. It would also make more sense when comparing the ability to the other hero abilities, particularly the warrior and the druid. I always liked to compare the two, how the warrior can constantly buff himself, while the druid buffs himself slower, but can also attack. Equipping a 2/1 dagger on the rogue is complete anti-warrior, as it doesn't give any armor (when the last time you saw a rouge decked out?) but it allows the rogue to do a reasonable amount of damage quickly and instantly, (just like a rogue). Its also comparable to the mages fireball power because despite having more firepower to take out anyone on the board, it has the 2 drawbacks of a) being affected by taunts, and b) also dealing damage to the rogue if it attacks anyone but the opposing hero.

3) Another thing they could do is to make the power more versatile and take it the path of the mage. Instead of equipping the weapon yourself, make the power able to increase the attack of any character. This again makes it comparable to the priest or mage power in that it forces you to use some strategy, and not just be a click and forget type ability like the others. There are 2 ways this ability could be used effectively, and they both represent the two ideas presented above. The power could either buff any minions attack by 1 permanently, forcing people to think and plan ahead (sort of an inverse of the mage power), or it could give someone 2 attack, but only for this turn, allowing weaker minions to potentially take down an enemy stronger then they are.

4) The final option I can come up with is not a change to the power, but rather a gameplay change. The change would be that if you equip the weapon, then you could immediately attack with it, regardless of weather or not you have attacked before. This would solve the problem I was saying at the start about not being able to use the power every turn. If they changed this aspect of the gameplay, it would allow rogues with the current power to attack first, destroy the remaining health of the weapon, re-equip the blades, and attack a second time in quick succession, essentially giving you 2 fireballs per turn, with the taunt and health drawbacks mentioned before. I don't know if this change should also effect things like warrior weapons, which are meant to be slow but heavy hitting, but at the very least it should apply to the rogue.

So those are my theories, tell me what you think would be the best option to change it to, or even give your own suggestion if you come up with one of your own. Maybe the developers will see this and take one of these onboard.
Edited by Tyrel on 12/11/2013 7:50 PM PST
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Posts: 324
I personally think the hero power is fine where it is. There's a reason they nerfed it from the original hero power: it was ridiculously powerful. Rogues are already in a very strong place right now and all your suggestions are huge unnecessary buffs. My 2 cents.
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Posts: 562
See this thread:

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10826782728

For my opinion on Rogue's Hero power.

12/08/2013 09:37 PMPosted by illogic
Rogues are already in a very strong place right now


When exactly was the last time a Rogue deck won a tourney? I dunno what Rogues you be playing but I've yet to play against a rogue that outright beat me. I've had a few squeak out some wins by sheer top-decking but aside from those lucky few I steam roll over every rogue that comes up against me.

I've gone as far as purposefully throwing a few matches when I get the "oops" emote from these sad sad people. Because if you don't get the right cards and play EXACTLY the right way you're pretty much f*cked as a rogue in today's Meta.
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Posts: 19
Hey illogic,

I appreciate your 2 cents (I genuinely do, no sarcasm involved), but if its alright, could you explain why you think the rogue power is fine? Granted, what I've written is just my opinion too, but I would like a bit more of an explanation as too why you think that. I have read the opinions on this matter on the link that Trickshaw gave, and some ideas I agree with, such as like banking damage and weapon based combos, but can you explain why you think a 2/1 dagger or the gameplay change in the last option would make it too over powered?

Also in one of your earlier posts on that forum you mentioned that the dagger is very good for board control early in the game. I have no problem with this, except that all other powers are also viable late game, and if you ask me, the rogues starts losing effectiveness around getting to 5 mana, save from the card lucky combos you mentioned. The suggestions I've put up are ways I think would make it late game worthy too, but your welcome to disagree. Something that always annoys me is that with any other class if I have 2-3 mana left and no cards I can always power up for a last move, but that's kind of useless with a rogue if I've already got that weapon.
Edited by Tyrel on 12/9/2013 4:07 AM PST
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Posts: 324
The problem I see with a 2/1 dagger, and that I believe was the main problem with the initial stacking damage pre-nerf, is that it allowed rogues to consistently take out most 2 drops without the rogue spending any cards. It sounds like you may not have had HS pre-nerf and weren't able to experience the complete rogue dominance, which I attribute mainly to the fact that rogue had almost uncontested board control early game. Combined with cards like Backstab and Ringleader (still quite powerful post-nerf), rogues got early dominance that easily snowballed out of control. Later in the game, Perdition's Blade and Assassin's Blade got way out of hand with stacking hero power. I have a feeling a 2/1 dagger would likely have similar effects on early game rogue, allowing them to destroy most 2 drops without using any cards.

Your third suggestion of giveing +attack to minions also seems a bit too powerful since that damage would stack and persist if the minion is not killed, also having a snowball effect. It also does not solve your problem of not being able to use your hero power every turn (you need minions on the board for it to be playable). We also already have Cold Blood for a cheap +atk buff.

Your last option would fundamentally change the way all weapon heroes play if it affected all classes. Hitting with the last charge of Truesilver or Reaper only to equip and attack with a second one would be crazy good. If just for rogues, I think you would run into similar problems with the other rogue weapons where double hitting would be very powerful, especially when poisons are factored in.

Obviously I could be totally wrong and one or more of your suggestions would work just fine, and we can hope the HS team has played around internal testing many potential options before settling on the dagger refresh we have today. I hesitate from comparing too much with mages. If anything, mage could use some toning down, but that is for a whole different thread. For myself, agro rogue does quite well and the 1/2 dagger is very helpful cleaning up spare damage to establish early board control, whittle down the champion barring taunt, or poison up mid game.
Edited by illogic on 12/9/2013 9:14 AM PST
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Posts: 17
Your third suggestion of giveing +attack to minions also seems a bit too powerful since that damage would stack and persist if the minion is not killed, also having a snowball effect. It also does not solve your problem of not being able to use your hero power every turn (you need minions on the board for it to be playable). We also already have Cold Blood for a cheap +atk buff.


What if worked like a Pally Sword of Justice (http://www.hearthhead.com/card=643/sword-of-justice), but only gives +1 attack instead of +1/+1 and kills the second charge of the knife? I think that's perfectly reasonable. The pally hero power is OP on its own, but with the sword of justice, it's ridiculous. I think +1 attack and kill the second charge is solid. Thoughts?
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Posts: 1
Hm from my experiences the rogue power is not underpowered. If you have no weapon equiped you can get a 1 damage one for 2 mana and that lasts for 2 turns, so you don't really need to use the power every turn, which is good.

I think every power has it's ups and downs. The paladin one for example you can't use right away and the minion will most likely be picked off right away unless you are in a very commanding position. Mages got a free 1 damage aswell but 2 mana is pretty big and i just only used it in the first few turns if ever to set up my game.

Well for rogue i don't know. I rarely had the situation that i really needed to use the hero power at all. Usually by the time I got 2 mana i have atleast some or multiple cards that are better to play, cards were allways a better choice than the hero power...

So yeah It is weak but it is unnecessary to play. About the suggestions though:

#1: I don't know about that.. That sort of gameplay does not sound very appealing at all and I don't know how that would relate to the rogue at all. Daggers getting stronger every turn... because of what reason? Anyhow it seems a bit too strong and was probably changed because of that.

#2: This is OP

#3: This sounds fishy aswell. Rogue, as the character itself, isn't really about buffing minions imho.

#4: This sounds viable i think.

Well other suggestions i came with to make this hero power more appealing:

#1: Change it to "Enchant Poison". Similar to deadly poison, when you allready have a weapon equiped give it 1 more attack for 1 turn. Would be a good solution for unspendable mana and that extra missing attack point sometimes.

#2: Change it to "Throwing Knifes" or something similar. Same ability as mage. Hit for 1 damage regardless of taunts. This would make it atleast needed for something to use.

Other than that I would just leave it as it is since i never need it, but i agree it's kind of weak.

Edit: Forgot about something.. It is good to use together with the 1 mana pirate card since that will enable it to have charge.
Edited by Hainiryun on 12/9/2013 3:31 PM PST
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Posts: 38
Pre-nerf, the hero power would add +1 to the attack of your weapon for that turn. Essentially allowing the rogue to deal 3 damage over two turns (or 4 damage over 2 turns with a saved knife). I don't really consider that to be too powerful, considering the rogue has to potentially damage themselves to use it as removal.

With how all the other rogue cards were nerfed, I think Rogues could use to get their old version of the hero power back.
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Posts: 19
12/09/2013 04:24 PMPosted by Coldin
Pre-nerf, the hero power would add +1 to the attack of your weapon for that turn.


My apologies, I must have remembered wrong, although to me that makes it even less sense as to why they would have removed that as it is.

12/09/2013 03:15 PMPosted by Hainiryun
#1: I don't know about that.. That sort of gameplay does not sound very appealing at all and I don't know how that would relate to the rogue at all. Daggers getting stronger every turn... because of what reason?


Its not so much as the daggers getting stronger, rather playing into the rogues combo play style, where playing one thing before another makes the second even more powerful. and with what Coldin has said, the power the way it was is also essentially a weaker but more expensive version of Deadly poison, but with the benefit of being able to play it every turn on the more expensive weapons like assassins blade, which is also good for those who use weapon based rogue decks.

Your third suggestion of giveing +attack to minions also seems a bit too powerful since that damage would stack and persist if the minion is not killed, also having a snowball effect. It also does not solve your problem of not being able to use your hero power every turn (you need minions on the board for it to be playable). We also already have Cold Blood for a cheap +atk buff.


What you said about needing to have minions on the board, the same could also be said for a number of other cards as well, particularly those that require your opponent to have 2 or more minions. And bringing up Cold Blood, that is a rather powerful card, especially used in combo, and the hero power wold be, like mentioned in my last paragraph, a weaker and more expensive version that you can play at any/every turn. And if you don't like the thoughts of the bonus stacking, what are your thoughts on a 1 or 2 attack buff, but only for this turn?
Edited by Tyrel on 12/9/2013 7:29 PM PST
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Posts: 19
12/09/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Obsidiangel
What if worked like a Pally Sword of Justice (http://www.hearthhead.com/card=643/sword-of-justice), but only gives +1 attack instead of +1/+1 and kills the second charge of the knife? I think that's perfectly reasonable. The pally hero power is OP on its own, but with the sword of justice, it's ridiculous. I think +1 attack and kill the second charge is solid. Thoughts?


The thing I see about the Paladin power is that it works with the paladins minion-centric playstyle, but keeping the minions at only 1/1 prevents it from being too overpowered on its own, but when it starts stacking up, then it is a force to be reckoned with, more then once I've been overwhelmed by powered up Silver Hands. As for the Sword of Justice, that is a powerful card, and the epic rating kind of reflects that, but that's also kind of a mid to late game card where everybody is buffing and killing and summoning massively powerful cards as well. Hero powers should be useful at all stages.

As for your power idea, its good, but I think slightly too complicated. I think hero powers should focus on either one area of play (warrior, hunter, warlock, paladin,druid) or every area of play (priest, mage, and shaman (at least in its own way the way I see it, although I do have a slight problem with the shaman power as well)), rather than your idea of focusing on both the hero and the minions at once.

#1: Change it to "Enchant Poison". Similar to deadly poison, when you allready have a weapon equiped give it 1 more attack for 1 turn. Would be a good solution for unspendable mana and that extra missing attack point sometimes.#2: Change it to "Throwing Knifes" or something similar. Same ability as mage. Hit for 1 damage regardless of taunts. This would make it atleast needed for something to use.


The first idea you suggested is actually the original idea of the rouge power before it was nerfed (see my last post for my apology). As for your second idea, without sounding rude, but its probably best to keep the powers as separate as possible. having two abilities the exact same would be both boring and confusing I think.

Again though, just my opinion.
Edited by Tyrel on 12/9/2013 7:56 PM PST
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Posts: 401
If not buff the rogue power to be in-line with other hero powers , then the rogue weapon cards should have special abilities temporarily modifying the rogue hero power for additional versatility. For example activating the rogue power could cause assassins blade to deal its damage to target enemy at the cost of one durability, benefit being no return damage. Or activating the rogue power could increase the damage of perdition's blade by one.
Edited by Pec on 12/9/2013 7:46 PM PST
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Posts: 2
Hi Guys,

In my opinion. I think that the power should be changed back to the old one BUT with a change ensuring that the +1 damage is only temporary - for that single turn only. In that way it will not be able to stack (and consequently stop people from complaining that it's OP). This will allow some flexibility for better combo's etc.

Surely this is the way forward? Please give me your opinions on this.
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Posts: 1,181
I dont get what is wrong with it, except for the fact that weapons should POSSIBLY not work so badly with it.
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Posts: 451
its still the most fun to use ^^
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Posts: 144
I think the biggest problem is that the power itself has too many drawbacks compared to other hero powers. You only have to use it every other turn, but:
The 1 skill to use it with only gets it's full potential after using it.
The weapon skills nullify the effect (unlike other classes).
It's uses it's usefulness rapidly with stronger minions/taunt minions. It's really draining on HP with all those low cost 2 attack minions in the first 2 rounds (first turn Leper Gnome will always be 4 damage unless you got a taunt).

Personally I'd think it might be very interesting if they changed hero powers to work as cards for combos and other cards effects. This would not buff the hero power per se, but still make it much more useful especially for Rogues.
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Posts: 436
02/06/2014 02:52 PMPosted by Monkeymania
Hi Guys,

In my opinion. I think that the power should be changed back to the old one BUT with a change ensuring that the +1 damage is only temporary - for that single turn only. In that way it will not be able to stack (and consequently stop people from complaining that it's OP). This will allow some flexibility for better combo's etc.

Surely this is the way forward? Please give me your opinions on this.


Rogue is already borderline op with the right deck, the class doesn't need buffs...
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Posts: 1,181
Poekei, as a rogue health is a resource.
I think the rogue hero power is amazing.. I can use it at the end of a turn and delay my attacks for tactical advantage, poison stab bflurry is sweet as hell, it's great for early removal, etc.

I don't know. I think it's amazing. Harder to use well than others perhaps?
Edited by Slai on 2/6/2014 5:04 PM PST
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Posts: 14
I agree with Slai, the rogue hero power is great because it encourages better plays and rewards good strategy.

It's not as straight forward as some of the other Hero powers but it can be devastating and/or give you and edge in a critical moment if used correctly.

Thing is a lot of things are not straight forward with the rogue (Combos, Miracle...etc) and that's what defines the play style = High Risk, High Rewards.

Just some thoughts.

Maybe in the future there will be more cards that interact directly with the Rogue weapons expending even further the possibilities of using the Hero power for various effects/combos.
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Posts: 12,555
02/06/2014 09:58 PMPosted by Albino
It's not as straight forward as some of the other Hero powers but it can be devastating and/or give you and edge in a critical moment if used correctly.


It get quickly worse than the mage power as time goes on.

Wanna kill that 7/1 taunter? Well you are going to take more than 20% of your health in damage.

Mage will do it for no damage.

Same for those early 2 health minions.

Knife jug will do at least 6 if not 9 damage to you if you want to take it out.

A mage can ping it for 1 health one turn, and then finish off next turn if needed....taking 1/2 - 1/3 of the damage the rogue did.

A lot of people harp on the fact that it is "mana efficent"

Big whoop....a mana efficent 1 damage attack is not all that grand when you consider that you are going to take damage back each time.

But regardless.....it needs to have SOME USE WHEN YOU HAVE A WEAPON EQUIPPED

The best idea so far has been to give the current weapon +1 attack and -1 durability.
Edited by Shadow on 2/7/2014 8:10 AM PST
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