Pyroblast OP

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Posts: 11,580
01/05/2014 06:18 PMPosted by Grailer
2 pyroblasts is OP , 1 alone isn't .

It does 10 damage but if they have spell damage minion in play it can be a 2 hit KO .


Maybe if that minion is Malygos...
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At the very least pyroblast should not get past taunt. If weapons have to attack into taunt creatures dealing damage to the player, don't you think its cheap for a mage to be able to bypass that? Also mind control was considered too good so it got bumped to 10 mana when it does not even win the game for you the turn you play it in most cases unlike pyroblast. I've been killed by pyroblast countless times unlike other classes that have to diversify their methods.
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People saying that this card is fine.... you really dont spend much time in this game.
After the arena run i just had now i had to get into here to complain about this card. The manacost of the cone and blizz is higher now, still.... its pretty dumb when you can face a mage with 3 pyroblasts in arena. What can you do against it? 99% of my arena runs i lose atleast 2 games to mages, since i dont play mage myself, is it a coincidence? I think not.

This class is broken and its really ruining the whole game. Its just too stupid. Theres NO rng on the blizz dmg, or anything at all. Its all fixed high dmg spells, that can just fly into your face and make your day perfect.

Just scrap up a couple of poly's and some freeze and your good to go.

You could make the pyroblast as a "weapon" for mages, that goes into the wep slot, and dont bypass taunts. Its... theres endless possible solutions to the problem.

(i know its a beta, but still... the problem have been here for quite some time :P )
Edited by Paulex on 1/6/2014 2:18 AM PST
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01/05/2014 06:18 PMPosted by Grailer
2 pyroblasts is OP , 1 alone isn't .

It does 10 damage but if they have spell damage minion in play it can be a 2 hit KO .


IMHO pyro is fine. It has high mana cost and most of time is useless on your hand until your enemy dropps low.
Sure, I agree, 2 pyros feel really op, but.. so do other lategame card combos who will finish you in 2 (!) turns.

Just compare it to weapon + weapon buff combos. There are really fearsome weapon combos out there that can dish out tons of dmg.

and btw, since we are talking about OP 2 card combos. did you ever faced a Craine Bloodhoof with Ancestral Spirit on it? 2 Cards giving you 4 times a 4/5..

or Priests, who just buff a creature to 30+/30+ and just onehits you.

Why I try to say is, lategame card effects, especially when stacked, are always OP as Hell and should be imho. Either you have a rush deck and the enemy should never face lategame, or you should have OP endgame combos as well (where it comes up to who will bring his combo out faster or counter enemy combo).
Edited by Illgore on 1/6/2014 7:09 PM PST
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01/05/2014 11:22 PMPosted by Vansire
At the very least pyroblast should not get past taunt. If weapons have to attack into taunt creatures dealing damage to the player, don't you think its cheap for a mage to be able to bypass that? Also mind control was considered too good so it got bumped to 10 mana when it does not even win the game for you the turn you play it in most cases unlike pyroblast. I've been killed by pyroblast countless times unlike other classes that have to diversify their methods.

Let me guess, you play a priest right? And you don't know how to heal? I'm not surprised you're whining...

The reason you've been killed by it "countless times" is because it's the mages finishing move. If they have it in their hand and it can win the game, they'll use it. Hell I use it even if the opponent is on 1hp, because, why not?
Edited by Scerion on 1/6/2014 8:46 PM PST
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PB needs at minimum jacked up to 10 mana cost. I've said this like 3 times now, it's absolutely insane that they moved MC to 10 mana because it was "frustrating" yet a Mage can do 2/3 of you're health, unblockable as well before a priest can play 1 MC now.

Late game against a Mage in constructed simply doesn't exist. It's simply a race to burn them down before they us PB. Nothing worse then being in total control of a game on turn 7 but you only have 10 health, you either kill them or automatically die.

Pretty sad when at that stage the only thing to save is bad card draw for them.
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Posts: 2,440
12/31/2013 05:06 AMPosted by Sar
Pyroblast is a very, very strong spell.
Name me a single class/spell that can dish out 10 damage to the hero for 8 right away with no way to counter or block (as you know: taunt does not work either). I can't think of any. Oh, it can actually be buffed too by +1 (or more) spell damage.
I know the mage should be a glass canon. It's a canon for sure, but not much in the field of glass.


The "no other card can..." argument is not a good one. For example, can you name any card other than Argent Protector that puts Divine Shield on a minion and gives you a body on the board? Do you know any weapon other than Gorehowl that can do 7 damage per swing and can take out 3 minions with 5 health or more? Do you know any card other than Bloodlust that gives all your minions +3 attack?

There's a LOT of cards that are the "only' card that does some specific combination of things.


you're comparing a 8 cost spell to a 2 cost minion.

apples and oranges – how are you mvp =\

it should go to 10 mana like MC or only have 1 in a deck.

imo all mage spells need to go up by 1 mana. way too cheap for the amount of damage/control they do. (im talking direct damage spells not coc and nova)
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Posts: 17
12/10/2013 06:35 PMPosted by Spaceduck
Don't cry about the ONE card you only see in action a handful of times.


No one is crying about it. People are making excellent points and realize that it's still in beta. It's people like you that don't allow any discussion about balancing issues because that automatically means "you are venting after a recent game and you suck at this game as well please uninstall".
Edited by Astérix on 1/8/2014 5:55 PM PST
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My 5 cents about pyroblast, make it a legendary card and thus 1/deck-limit and it's fine.
Just let people craft it for the epic price for some time and it shouldn't get too much QQ.

Most of the mages wouldn't be that difficult opponents if it wasn't for the freeze effects. Which makes it kind of sad that no other class than mage has any counterspell, sure priest can be lucky and steal one.

Or there could be spell-taunt/-spell damage minions and once again we have more options to counter them. Sure, it is just beta and they will probably add some more content in the future.
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It's mentioned annoyingly often by mage defenders "well, other classes can put out that kind of damage too so it's not really OP!"

This is easily the dumbest argument in favor of cards like Pyroblast I've ever seen.

Show me one card that reliably can do 10 damage to an enemy hero without being combo'd with another card, let alone ignore taunt.

Pyro deserved to be nerfed for the same reason OTK hunters were: There is no interaction, no strategy, no thought to actually using this card. At least if I get frostbolt-icelance-icelance-fireballed I feel like the mage had to save up all of those cards to pull off a combo like that. It means the mage had to draw those four cards and save them for the rest of the match. Pyroblast is 10 damage in one card, and I have 30 HP. My entire chances of winning hinge on whether or not the mage draws those two pyroblasts by turn 9-10. There's no intelligent thought to it, no planning, no strategy. And if there's no strategy involved, what is even the point in a card game like Hearthstone at all?

And don't try to pretend there is, because I've played mage decks of all sorts myself and I've seen how laughably easy it is to throw out silly things like planning and board control and just end the game with this asinine 2-card win.
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01/09/2014 05:12 PMPosted by Aak
It's mentioned annoyingly often by mage defenders "well, other classes can put out that kind of damage too so it's not really OP!"

This is easily the dumbest argument in favor of cards like Pyroblast I've ever seen.

Show me one card that reliably can do 10 damage to an enemy hero without being combo'd with another card, let alone ignore taunt.

Pyro deserved to be nerfed for the same reason OTK hunters were: There is no interaction, no strategy, no thought to actually using this card. At least if I get frostbolt-icelance-icelance-fireballed I feel like the mage had to save up all of those cards to pull off a combo like that. It means the mage had to draw those four cards and save them for the rest of the match. Pyroblast is 10 damage in one card, and I have 30 HP. My entire chances of winning hinge on whether or not the mage draws those two pyroblasts by turn 9-10. There's no intelligent thought to it, no planning, no strategy. And if there's no strategy involved, what is even the point in a card game like Hearthstone at all?

And don't try to pretend there is, because I've played mage decks of all sorts myself and I've seen how laughably easy it is to throw out silly things like planning and board control and just end the game with this asinine 2-card win.


I think you're mixing up a few things here. First of all, many people make the inane argument "Amg, I know as soon as I play a Mage that I have to be able to expect 11 damage in a turn." It's true that Pyroblast and Fireball are extremely efficient in terms of damage per card, but the argument is poor in the sense that many classes can do far more damage than that in a single turn. To make sure there's no confusion there, Pyroblast IS a very damage-efficient card in the sense of damage per card, but the argument of how much damage mages can pump out in a single turn with it is NOT a good argument as many classes can chain together a few spells to get far more damage than a Mage. That's not an unreasonable concept; low-cost spells can be played in more combinations, so it's no surprise that there's a higher damage cap associated with it.

Second, there is plenty of interaction with Pyro. It's far easier to heal up the damage from a Pyro than it is to actually cast the damage. The problem with OTK is that if they drew the combo, no amount of health and no feasible amount of taunt could protect you from it; there really was no interaction in that sense. Yeah, MINIONS on the board can't stop a Pyroblast (though you can try to kill them before they can do it), but there are plenty of healing cards that can easily revert the damage.

Lastly, playing a mage deck a few times and winning a few times does not show success with it; it means you've probably beaten a few people. Mage is a solid deck, but it's not an overpowered one, so you should expect something like a 50-50 win rate. Go hit legendary rank with Mage in the first week (i.e. when it's difficult) and you'll have a better argument. If the class really is that easy and that overpowered, you'll coast through your games no matter how good your opponent is, and you'll be legendary fast. The point is, as I of course know, it's not remotely that easy no matter what deck you're playing.

Basically, it takes no skill to lose, it takes skill to win. Prove the OP-ness of the class by having some sort of unique success with it, not by proving how many times you can lose to it.
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How much they can pump out in a single turn has never been the issue. 10 damage in one turn - especially on 8 mana - is not really much at all. There are plenty of classes that can do that, easily. Look at warriors and Molten Giant decks, or hell, look at Alexstrasza alone. 15 damage by turn 9 in the form of direct damage is solid, to put it lightly.

The difference with Pyroblast is that while other classes may have to plan and strategize to pull off combos to achieve this kind of damage, the mage simply uses a single spell and whips out 10 damage to your face. OTK hunters were easily countered; laughably so. You needed no fancy plan and you didn't need to shape your deck around them. Most decks included things like Defender of Argus already, and if you didn't have some form of taunt in your deck then you had a problem. The moment you saw the clear warning signs of a OTK hunter, you could start to plan around it; save your taunts, wait out dropping them until the later turns and meanwhile push out as much pressure on the board as possible.
I'd argue that OTK hunters involved more interaction than Pyroblast. The moment you dropped your bulky 8/8 Ironbark Protector on their face, their OTK was ruined if they could not remove it.

Healing is not a feasible way to justify Pyroblast either. In the same way that you could say healing cards can heal back Pyroblast damage, you can say any damage can be healed back. That doesn't mean it's any more or less ridiculous because healing exists in this game, and healing in itself is reliant on lucky draws because there are often games where, even if you throw in 4-6 cards with a healing effect in your deck, that mage only needs two cards to pump out that 20 damage to your face. That Earthen Ring Farseer's 3 health restore is not going to save you when you're suddenly on 13 health and they have a 3 damage minion on the board that nails you in the face to 3 damage.

Re-read what I said and note that I didn't ever specify what level of play I'm talking about, and that was intentional. Against legendary ranked players, OTK hunters were a joke to counter, yet they were still nerfed.
Games should not be balanced around legendary-ranked players alone; if they are, then it's not going to be a very fun game. Pyro needs to be nerfed simply because it plagues this game as a shoddy design choice and not a fun card at all. There's nothing cool to it, no flavor, no nothing. Mages already have a versatile, heavy damage spell in the form of Fireball, and Pyroblast is only extremely rarely used for anything other than just casting at an enemy's face lategame as punishment for ever daring to let a mage maintain any kind of board presence for any turn past 2 or 3.
The archetype of a "mage" could easily be used for more fun and interesting cards and there's no doubt if it was nerfed, changed or removed we wouldn't suddenly see the ever-present mages fall off of the face of Hearthstone. There's no real reason at all that this card should exist in it's current form and it's pretty difficult to deny that in the vast majority of levels of play in this game it's an absolutely ridiculous card. If someone's deck doesn't contain any kind of healing cards (and considering the small amount of them in the game, that's not unreasonable), a mage has to last until turn 9 and put out 10 damage total to an enemy in order to achieve victory.
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Posts: 11,580
01/09/2014 06:13 PMPosted by Aak
How much they can pump out in a single turn has never been the issue. 10 damage in one turn - especially on 8 mana - is not really much at all. There are plenty of classes that can do that, easily. Look at warriors and Molten Giant decks, or hell, look at Alexstrasza alone. 15 damage by turn 9 in the form of direct damage is solid, to put it lightly.

Maybe this got missed, but the point I'm trying to make is, you often said you see mage "defenders", as you call it, that talk about classes that can do more damage in a turn than a mage is. What I'm trying to say is, when people say this, it's almost ALWAYS in response to a post that says "When I'm playing against a mage I have to be prepared for 10 damage in one turn." If the point is simply that you can take 10 damage in a turn (and once again, this is almost always what elicits the response), there are classes that can easily pull off far more damage than that, so that's a very poor argument. In other words, "Rogues can do 24 damage in one turn" is not a counter-argument to Pyroblast being a lot of damage from one card, it's a counter-argument to the weak argument that many people make, which is "Mages make me feel like I'm playing with 10 less health".

The correct argument against Pyroblast isn't that it's a lot of damage in one turn but that it's a lot of damage for one card. But there's a lot of cards like that. For example, Malygos is a much more damaging card than Knife Juggler, but compare which you see often in high-end decks. The point is, cost DOES matter. In a fast-paced game like Hearthstone, it's hard to fit in a lot of high-cost cards in a deck; if it weren't everyone would be running Malygos instead of Knife Juggler. So people tend to underestimate that you could very legitimately make a case that Eviscerate is a better card than Pyroblast, for example. Yes, it's less flashy, but due to its low cost, it's very often a far more effective card.

Another case I'll bring up that illustrates the point. I would probably never make a mage deck without Pyroblast. But imagine you were playing Arena and were somehow given the choice between Pyroblast and Ragnaros (can't happen obviously since they're different rarities, but just imagine), which would you pick? Pyroblast is a strong card, but I'd probably take Rag over the Pyro; Pyro is indeed 10 damage that can't be stopped (though it can be countered), but whereas Pyro hits one time, Ragnaros does his damage EVERY turn, and forces the opponent to react to it. Which is an important point; yes, high-damage spells are good, but you only get the damage a single time. By comparison, high damage minions do damage every turn and must be countered by the opponent.

So I hope this clarifies it a bit. The case on Pyroblast isn't so cut-and-dry, despite it blatantly being a better-than-average card. The concept of "10 damage in one turn" is a horrible argument because there's a lot of ways to do 10 damage in one turn. As for a single card, yes, it's a lot of damage, but it's the same argument of "Do you use big minions or small minoins,"; the same argument can be made for spells. And even if you do a side-by-side comparison of a good big spell and a good big minion (Pyro vs. Ragnaros), it's really not such an obvious choice. The problem is that people look at big flashy cards and assume they must be too good because their big and flashy; but expensive cards are always strong, that's why they're expensive. That doesn't automatically mean they're too strong.


Healing is not a feasible way to justify Pyroblast either. In the same way that you could say healing cards can heal back Pyroblast damage, you can say any damage can be healed back. That doesn't mean it's any more or less ridiculous because healing exists in this game, and healing in itself is reliant on lucky draws because there are often games where, even if you throw in 4-6 cards with a healing effect in your deck, that mage only needs two cards to pump out that 20 damage to your face. That Earthen Ring Farseer's 3 health restore is not going to save you when you're suddenly on 13 health and they have a 3 damage minion on the board that nails you in the face to 3 damage.

My point is that the case against Pyroblast been non-counterable is incorrect; you can counter direct damage with healing very effectively. Healing doesn't counter all damage. For example, if I have a Giant punching you in the face, the heal doesn't stop the Giant from hitting you again and again and again. Essentially, compared to a Giant's damage each turn, healing lets you stall for a single turn but you lose card advantage for it. Compared to direct damage though, once I cast the Pyroblast, i can't cast it again. So in the case of healing, it is neutral in terms of card advantage (i.e. we both lose one card) but the healing reverts the damage at a much lower cost than the direct damage had cost.

This is why I say that healing is a counter to DIRECT damage, not a counter to minion damage.
Edited by Sar on 1/9/2014 6:25 PM PST
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Posts: 14
I see some people's problem with this...

1) Mage's can build deck's where they can sit behind taunt, cone of cold, frost nova, and ice barrier and just wait out their burn cards...but that's what a mage does they are squishy and have huge burst damage and that is what hearthstone tries to illustrate.

2) I do think it is a bit ridiculous for some Mage arena decks to have a crazy amount of fireballs and pyroblasts but that's just how draft works in any kind of card game you play.

3) I see many people complaining about it, but at the same time why complain? If it's so good and so overpowered why not just exploit how "OP" it is and win a bunch of games with it? The main problem is Mage's can be easily shut down. They have many spells but very little creature base most heavy creature oriented decks can win to mages very easily.

You have to think about your plays. I see so many people get wrecked by boardwipe in this game because if they have a minion card in their hand they have to play it. You have to learn against certain decks you should expect boardwipe coming at a certain turn:
Priest - 5 holy nova
Paladin - 4 consecration
Warrior - 1 whirlwind
Hunter - 2 explosive trap
Warlock - 4 hellfire, 4 shadowflame
Shaman - 3 lightning storm
Druid - 4 swipe, 5 starfall
Rogue - 2 blade fury, 3 fan of knives
Mage - 6 Blizzard, 7 Flamestrike

Mage's have incredible boardwipe but it's about trying to bait their boardwipe or having the minions to be able to recover after the boardwipe...I kinda got off topic but ya Pyroblast is not OP but I understand where alot of you are coming from.
Edited by caelaiden on 1/9/2014 6:29 PM PST
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Posts: 710
01/05/2014 10:42 AMPosted by Aza
You'll see tons of mages


Weird. Because all I saw in legendary was Warlock, Druids and Rogues. Occasionally a Mage. I also seen Priests and Paladins(more Paladins than Mages). Personally when I see a frost mage for example. I think "yay I win".

There is no deck, no deck whats so ever that anyone can make that counters every other deck in the game. It's the way CCG/TCG works. There can't be only one.

Pretty easy if you want to make an anti mage deck. But that will give you trouble against other types of decks. But that's the way it is.
Edited by Bibiki on 1/9/2014 7:10 PM PST
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Posts: 509
12/10/2013 04:27 PMPosted by Gnarleus
This card should be removed from the game. Even if removed, mages would still be one of the best classes. The card has no place in the game, it's far too strong, especially when you have 2 of them, plus 2 fireballs.

You're a complete moron. There are plenty of other plays that do a LOT more than 10 damage by turn 8. If you haven't managed to figure it out then you deserve to be beaten and humiliated. Mages are far from the best class - they have under 50% win rate. Most of the mage spells are actually less mana efficient than spells from other classes. You're just not very good, and so you're crying about it on a forum. Grow a pair.
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Posts: 1,000
I'm on the fence about Pyroblast.

On the one hand, it perfectly represents standard burn card design as per MTG - that is, because it's a 1-time deal, these cards typically need to be cost efficient (especially against damage prevention and/or healing)

On the other, while I don't feel the card itself is inherently OP, combined with the other tools Mage has access to it does create a very frustrating environment - namely that Mage has so much board wipe/control that they can often stall you and then just nuke your face. In MTG terms, this is akin to running both Red & Blue together as Red is the primary color for the direct damage and blue control magic. If anything needs nerfing it's Frostbolt - I can't for the life of me understand how Blizzard thought reducing it to 2 mana was a good idea as it gives Mage a little too much wiggle room in the early game (and makes for some ridiculous combo potential with Mana Wyrm & Ice Lance). I also think Sorcerer's Apprentice needs looking at as well, a 3/2 for 2 that also reduces spell cost is a tad insane.

I think Mage for the most part is fine and just needs some tweaking. The army of people raging over how OP it is have clearly never played MTG, or at least never against a serious control deck in that game.

There is only 1 word in a Blue mage's vocabulary, and it is simply "No". No, you may not cast that spell. No, you may not attack/block with that creature. No you may not have your turn after mine etc etc.

I mean this game doesn't even allow for responses (as in playing a card in response to the opponent's) you people have no idea how maddening Control can be in a TCG.
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Posts: 119
MY take on Pyroblast:

It needs an adjustment somehow. Right now, with the amount of draw ability within game and within the mage class itself, its a virtual gaurantee they are gonna draw 2. That essentially means, they have to survive until Rnd 9.

Now i know people say mage is under powered in legendary blah, blah, blah. How many people are in legendary vs how many are in earlier stages of meta? Fact is, with the sheer amount of low cast board control and the amount of draw, its inevitable to happen. So, your choice is to pray you can drop mage by rnd 9/10 and not lose more than 10 life, or you concede and press on.

Now, playing as a mage, with 2 pyroblasts in my deck, i draw both by round 7 or 8 consistently. I don't have much of a problem controlling the board and even on the off chance that my card draw doesn't happen i can at least keep myself alive with lesser minions and maybe fireball/frostbolt ping them to death.

Just to give you an idea, Since Season 2 started yesterday i have played.......20 ish matches probably half with mage. I haven't lost with mage in the 25-18 range yet. Reason? im not playing in a meta where i have to worry about the super legendary overcharged rank 8-L1 decks. yet. I think i have seen 1, and since it was so slow i still got it on rnd 9.

This is all ontop of the fact that the mage doesn't even have to hit you with minions to kill you at all. strategic low cast cost taunts, mirror images, card draw, frost bolts/ice lances, fireballs and pyro's can handle all the damage you need really. That kind of privilege to damage without consideration of minion abilities is fairly strong.

so, suggestions on how to fix pyro.

1. Restrict it to 1 a deck. How you ask? Make it a legendary card
2. Have it incur a larger penalty than 8 mana to the player. If you are going to take away 1/3 of a health pool, it needs to be more than 8 mana. Penalty can be similar to the shaman overcharge mechanic.

I personally wish taunt required focus by spells as well. or atleast another mechanic within game to allow minions to impact spell casting more
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Posts: 65
The spell is broken, I am about to stop playing until it is fixed.. i could care less about hearthstone at this point, and all the mages crying how BALANCED pyro is are pathetic..

Use your brain and build a deck that actually requires more thinking than raw LUCK.

Fresh out of my 10th straight loss to this type of deck, i rage, care? Sue me.

MAKE PYRO LEGENDARY or remove it completely!
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Posts: 65
^

01/09/2014 08:09 PMPosted by Scerion
This card should be removed from the game. Even if removed, mages would still be one of the best classes. The card has no place in the game, it's far too strong, especially when you have 2 of them, plus 2 fireballs.

You're a complete moron. There are plenty of other plays that do a LOT more than 10 damage by turn 8. If you haven't managed to figure it out then you deserve to be beaten and humiliated. Mages are far from the best class - they have under 50% win rate. Most of the mage spells are actually less mana efficient than spells from other classes. You're just not very good, and so you're crying about it on a forum. Grow a pair.


^ This guy plays mage, just guessin.
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