Pyroblast OP

Posts: 68
01/10/2014 12:43 PMPosted by Zelethul
Ok.

It's not fun and broken that rush decks automatically lose to Shamans.

So your damage spells should all be nerfed.

Sound fair?


Sounds great! I just want the game to be balanced and fun, more cards will be added eventually, things are going to change and I am ok with that, it's beta!

Can you say the same?
Edited by MissMaven on 1/10/2014 12:55 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,670
Rush decks don't automatically lose to shamans though. Shamans need a really good draw to win.

So much fail information in this thread.
Reply Quote
Posts: 8,755
Ok.

It's not fun and broken that rush decks automatically lose to Shamans.

So your damage spells should all be nerfed.

Sound fair?


Sounds great! I just want the game to be balanced and fun, more cards will be added eventually, things are going to change and I am ok with that, it's beta!

Can you say the same?


You cannot tell me that you would be happy with your deck being ruined in 7/8 class match ups, just because one class has trouble with their hard counter.

To tell me otherwise is just lying through your teeth.

Because when I say things like the above, I am being facetious. I am literally telling you, like you seem to be telling Mages, that they should not be allowed to win games just because a small minority of people have trouble with their class.

Which is completely, utterly unacceptable, and totally contrary to any actual concepts of class balance.
Edited by Zelethul on 1/10/2014 12:59 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 68
01/10/2014 12:50 PMPosted by Ogrumz
Zelethul posting about me? Guy loves to ride my jock, while not providing any sort of feed back whatsoever.


Lol- Hope you don't take offense to my earlier comments, just trying to get back on topic. ^.^
Reply Quote
Posts: 68
01/10/2014 12:58 PMPosted by Zelethul
small minority


^ I lol'd
Reply Quote
Posts: 8,755
01/10/2014 01:00 PMPosted by MissMaven
small minority


^ I lol'd


It's true.

Sar has posted the links for the stats, on this very forum, in fact.

Mages have a slightly less than 50% win rate overall.

Clearly, everyone else is not having nearly as bad of a time as you two seem to be. I'd ask you what your excuse is for constantly losing, but Ogrumz is a walking excuse, so he's probably inflating the Mage win rate by himself.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,670
Shamans are so popular and powerful, that you see so many on the ladder.
Reply Quote
Posts: 8,755
01/10/2014 01:07 PMPosted by Ogrumz
Shamans are so popular and powerful, that you see so many on the ladder.


I saw a Shaman at Rank 4 before the wipe.

Priest and Hunter might as well be an endangered species for all I actually see them.

You can try the pity party routine all you want, but the fact remains that your class is fine, and hard counters several high level archetypes.

If you aren't high on the ladder right now, the only reason is you.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,670
I'm not sure what Zelethul said, but when all legendary players basically agree that "If you aren't playing Warlock/Rogue/Druid/Mage you are doing it wrong." has a lot more bearing than anything someone who can't break rank 15 says.
Reply Quote
Posts: 68
Just lost a match cuz i had "Too much healing". Stack heals for "Mage Meta", die to everything else.
Reply Quote
Posts: 18
Even I as a Mage player have to say that pyroblast has to be nerfed. Either increase the mana costs to 10 or lower the amount of damage to 8.
Reply Quote
Posts: 241
Pyroblast is like, the fairest, least OP card I can think of. People are frustrated because that entire deck doesn't follow conventional board control play style. The mage lets you dominate the field with your minions, then Ice Blocks and freezes them so you can't attack, all while widdling away at your health.

Then the coup de grace you with the card to seal the deal, and Pyroblast becomes the scapegoat because it's the last card that the losing player sees. Must be why they lost, right?

Then you're extra frustrated, because to you it looks like you have total control of the game with all your guys on the table, and like you were winning until the Mage was "cheap". You know his deck is setup to let you keep your guys, and you're not really winning, right? You didn't "outplay" him, and then he Pyro-ed you, he built the entire deck to get you into Pyro range and then stall you long enough for him to deliver it.

Pyroblast is just the shape your death takes, but as a card it's very balanced. If Ice Blocks and Pyroblasts could both just be exchanged with 4 more fireballs (the card you don't hate as much as Pyroblast), you'd be just as dead, and mages would probably be way better off.

Less result oriented thinking. Learn to see more than just the killing blow.
Reply Quote
Posts: 68
01/10/2014 02:42 PMPosted by LudusRex
Pyroblast is like, the fairest, least OP card I can think of. People are frustrated because that entire deck doesn't follow conventional board control play style. The mage lets you dominate the field with your minions, then Ice Blocks and freezes them so you can't attack, all while widdling away at your health.

Then the coup de grace you with the card to seal the deal, and Pyroblast becomes the scapegoat because it's the last card that the losing player sees. Must be why they lost, right?

Then you're extra frustrated, because to you it looks like you have total control of the game with all your guys on the table, and like you were winning until the Mage was "cheap". You know his deck is setup to let you keep your guys, and you're not really winning, right? You didn't "outplay" him, and then he Pyro-ed you, he built the entire deck to get you into Pyro range and then stall you long enough for him to deliver it.

Pyroblast is just the shape your death takes, but as a card it's very balanced. If Ice Blocks and Pyroblasts could both just be exchanged with 4 more fireballs (the card you don't hate as much as Pyroblast), you'd be just as dead, and mages would probably be way better off.

Less result oriented thinking. Learn to see more than just the killing blow.


^ What i see in my brain : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04
#CharlieBrownsTeacher
Edited by MissMaven on 1/10/2014 3:17 PM PST
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
Posts: 11,716
01/10/2014 03:16 PMPosted by MissMaven
Pyroblast is like, the fairest, least OP card I can think of. People are frustrated because that entire deck doesn't follow conventional board control play style. The mage lets you dominate the field with your minions, then Ice Blocks and freezes them so you can't attack, all while widdling away at your health.

Then the coup de grace you with the card to seal the deal, and Pyroblast becomes the scapegoat because it's the last card that the losing player sees. Must be why they lost, right?

Then you're extra frustrated, because to you it looks like you have total control of the game with all your guys on the table, and like you were winning until the Mage was "cheap". You know his deck is setup to let you keep your guys, and you're not really winning, right? You didn't "outplay" him, and then he Pyro-ed you, he built the entire deck to get you into Pyro range and then stall you long enough for him to deliver it.

Pyroblast is just the shape your death takes, but as a card it's very balanced. If Ice Blocks and Pyroblasts could both just be exchanged with 4 more fireballs (the card you don't hate as much as Pyroblast), you'd be just as dead, and mages would probably be way better off.

Less result oriented thinking. Learn to see more than just the killing blow.


^ What i see in my brain : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04
^ Charlie Browns teacher ^


He's saying that you're noticing the finishing blow more than everything that leads up to it. To use a chess analogy, he's saying that you're noticing the move that puts you in checkmate but not the 20 moves in advance that forced you into that position.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,377
01/10/2014 02:42 PMPosted by LudusRex
Pyroblast is just the shape your death takes, but as a card it's very balanced.

I can not agree there. What you say in the rest of your post is correct. But it does not change the fact that the Mage is the only class with a 10 damage direct damage spell. And that you can play your finisher much easier than every other class. You need a lot less lead up work.

Sar also knows about the damage prevention vs damage curing issue that pyroblast creates. Every other class' 10+ damage cards are all preventable damage while the Mage's is only curable damage. Only iceblock and counter spell can prevent the damage. I am aware you need to take the whole class into account.

The mage as a whole is fine, just this one card (and possibly iceblock too) need a fix. Then the mage as a whole will be so much better.
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
Posts: 11,716
01/10/2014 03:27 PMPosted by the8thark
Pyroblast is just the shape your death takes, but as a card it's very balanced.

I can not agree there. What you say in the rest of your post is correct. But it does not change the fact that the Mage is the only class with a 10 damage direct damage spell. And that you can play your finisher much easier than every other class. You need a lot less lead up work.

Sar also knows about the damage prevention vs damage curing issue that pyroblast creates. Every other class' 10+ damage cards are all preventable damage while the Mage's is only curable damage. Only iceblock and counter spell can prevent the damage. I am aware you need to take the whole class into account.

The mage as a whole is fine, just this one card (and possibly iceblock too) need a fix. Then the mage as a whole will be so much better.


As I've said before, the "only" argument for a class is not a good one. Every class has things that "only" they can do, that's what makes them unique. Being the "only" class that can do something does not inherently mean its overpowered.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,377
01/10/2014 03:29 PMPosted by Sar
As I've said before, the "only" argument for a class is not a good one. Every class has things that "only" they can do, that's what makes them unique. Being the "only" class that can do something does not inherently mean its overpowered.

It does not mean it's not overpowered too. I said more then just "only" in that comment. I also said the card requires so much less lead up work before the big finisher than other cards.

Heck I'll link my other post explaining why I think pyroblast is OP so everyone here can read it.

My first post:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11224092378?page=1#19

My 2nd post:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11224092378?page=3#46

My suggestions on possible ways to improve pyroblast:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11224092378?page=1#1

There is a lot of reading there. And MVP Sar had a lot of good things to say there.

I'll try to write quick TLDR if all the above links so people don't have to spend 30 mins reading if they do not want to.

- every other class' 10+ damage bursts (with one card) are preventable damage. You can kill card or ooze a weapon. Pyro requires you to heal the damage before or after the pyro hit. This is the damage prevention vs damage curing issue. I realise saying it's the only class like this is not enough on it's own but it's a good point.

- Every single class can nullify the other classes 10+ damage cards in many ways (kill cards / taunt / minion stealing / deathwing / a powerful spell / etc.) Only Mage can nullify (not out heal) Pyroblast. Again the odd class out.

- Pyroblast requires less lead up work and less card RNG then any other 10+ damage card or finishing combo.

- The card is basically all about stalling till you can top deck 1-2x Pyro. There is no skill in that. You either top deck them and you win or you don't top deck them and you lose. A generalisation but it happens a lot. And this is a very binary situation. A situation where more skill was involved would be better.

- Even though fun is not quantifiable, it's more fun to use your skill to win instead of the above, stalling till you topdeck your Pyros.
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
Posts: 11,716
As I've said before, the "only" argument for a class is not a good one. Every class has things that "only" they can do, that's what makes them unique. Being the "only" class that can do something does not inherently mean its overpowered.

It does not mean it's not overpowered too. I said more then just "only" in that comment. I also said the card requires so much less lead up work before the big finisher than other cards.

Heck I'll link my other post explaining why I think pyroblast is OP so everyone here can read it.

My first post:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11224092378?page=1#19

My 2nd post:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11224092378?page=3#46

My suggestions on possible ways to improve pyroblast:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11224092378?page=1#1

There is a lot of reading there. And MVP Sar had a lot of good things to say there.

I'll try to write quick TLDR if all the above links so people don't have to spend 30 mins reading if they do not want to.

- every other class' 10+ damage bursts (with one card) are preventable damage. You can kill card or ooze a weapon. Pyro requires you to heal the damage before or after the pyro hit. This is the damage prevention vs damage curing issue. I realise saying it's the only class like this is not enough on it's own but it's a good point.

- Every single class can nullify the other classes 10+ damage cards in many ways (kill cards / taunt / minion stealing / deathwing / a powerful spell / etc.) Only Mage can nullify (not out heal) Pyroblast. Again the odd class out.

- Pyroblast requires less lead up work and less card RNG then any other 10+ damage card or finishing combo.

- The card is basically all about stalling till you can top deck 1-2x Pyro. There is no skill in that. You either top deck them and you win or you don't top deck them and you lose. A generalisation but it happens a lot. And this is a very binary situation. A situation where more skill was involved would be better.

- Even though fun is not quantifiable, it's more fun to use your skill to win instead of the above, stalling till you topdeck your Pyros.


I'd like to point out that you started by saying that I was right about the only argument, but every point you make here is what Pyroblast can do that other cards can't. Yeah, that's true; but like I said, there are a LOT of cards that are the "only" thing that can do it. Flame Imp is the only 1-drop with 3 attack. Magma Rager is the "only" 3-drop without some sort of negative penalty. There's a lot of onlies. Make a case against Pyroblast that does not once reference the fact that other cards can't do the same thing.

What you tend to keep forgetting is that you reference that Pyroblast is a strong card. Yes, it is... ALL expensive cards are strong. You keep neglecting the cost as if it's nothing; the cost matters. A lot. If it didn't, no deck would have anything under a 7-drop. Furthermore, spells are a one-time damage, minions are a recurring damage. That's why spells are less preventable; you can't easily stop spell damage (though you can counter it), but the difference is, it's a "one and done" sort of deal. You do the damage once, and you'll never see it again. A big minion, unless you actually kill it, will keep doing it over and over and over.

Allow me to present you a situation that brings this into light. Consider Ragnaros and Pyroblast; in my opinion, both pretty good cards, and both the same cost. If you were presented the choice between Ragnaros and Pyroblast in Arena (obviously not possible since they're different rarities, but just assume), which would you choose? This is not a bash on Pyroblast, but I'd almost always pick the Rangaros. Pyroblast lets me hit my opponent for 10 damage once; Ragnaros hits for 8 damage every turn and forces my opponent to trade AT LEAST trade cards 1:1 to kill it. Pyroblast, on the other hand, while a good finisher if my opponent is low, does not require him to expend any mana, board position, etc. to stop it if Pyroblast isn't the last bit of damage against him. And it only does it once. This should highlight the differences between Pyroblast and minions. And more importantly, it should highlight the concept of what a high-cost card is. They're ALWAYS powerful, and there's a reason for it.
Edited by Sar on 1/10/2014 4:02 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,377
01/10/2014 04:01 PMPosted by Sar
Allow me to present you a situation that brings this into light. Consider Ragnaros and Pyroblast; in my opinion, both pretty good cards, and both the same cost. If you were presented the choice between Ragnaros and Pyroblast in Arena (obviously not possible since they're different rarities, but just assume), which would you choose? This is not a bash on Pyroblast, but I'd almost always pick the Rangaros. Pyroblast lets me hit my opponent for 10 damage once; Ragnaros hits for 8 damage every turn and forces my opponent to trade AT LEAST trade cards 1:1 to kill it. Pyroblast, on the other hand, while a good finisher if my opponent is low, does not require him to expend any mana, board position, etc. to stop it if Pyroblast isn't the last bit of damage against him. And it only does it once. This should highlight the differences between Pyroblast and minions. And more importantly, it should highlight the concept of what a high-cost card is. They're ALWAYS powerful, and there's a reason for it.


I'd always choose Pyro. It's not random damage. It does more damage. It can't be sheeped before it hits what I want it to hit (if I get unlucky with the first random hit). At a pinch it can synergise with Archmage Antonidas. It can't be stolen or faceless manipulator cloned. Secrets (apart from 2 specific mage ones) can't affect it like all the rest can affect minions , etc etc.

Minions are not more powerful than spells, they are just multiple hits of weaker damage that can be killed while spells are higher damage but they are only one hit.

What you say is correct. And with a good mage deck, 10 damage is all you need. You just value Ragnoras higher than Pyroblast for most situations. And I value Pyroblast higher. Neither of us is wrong. We both just have different opinions on the issue here.

The main issue with Pyro is not the 10 damage actually. It's the fact that you need so little prep work to make Pyro a viable finisher. In a long game the other player in reality starts off with 20 health. You can prevent this with a rush deck. But you get my point. If it was harder to get the pyro finisher activated then sure it'd be better balanced. But as it stands it isn't.
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
Posts: 11,716
01/10/2014 04:14 PMPosted by the8thark
Allow me to present you a situation that brings this into light. Consider Ragnaros and Pyroblast; in my opinion, both pretty good cards, and both the same cost. If you were presented the choice between Ragnaros and Pyroblast in Arena (obviously not possible since they're different rarities, but just assume), which would you choose? This is not a bash on Pyroblast, but I'd almost always pick the Rangaros. Pyroblast lets me hit my opponent for 10 damage once; Ragnaros hits for 8 damage every turn and forces my opponent to trade AT LEAST trade cards 1:1 to kill it. Pyroblast, on the other hand, while a good finisher if my opponent is low, does not require him to expend any mana, board position, etc. to stop it if Pyroblast isn't the last bit of damage against him. And it only does it once. This should highlight the differences between Pyroblast and minions. And more importantly, it should highlight the concept of what a high-cost card is. They're ALWAYS powerful, and there's a reason for it.


I'd always choose Pyro. It's not random damage. It does more damage. It can't be sheeped before it hits what I want it to hit (if I get unlucky with the first random hit). At a pinch it can synergise with Archmage Antonidas. It can't be stolen or faceless manipulator cloned. Secrets (apart from 2 specific mage ones) can't affect it like all the rest can affect minions , etc etc.

Minions are not more powerful than spells, they are just multiple hits of weaker damage that can be killed while spells are higher damage but they are only one hit.


Minions and spells have their distinct uses, but I prefer a strong powerful minion to a strong powerful spell.

Anyway, consider the FULL aspect of what you're suggesting taking Pyroblast over Ragnaros. Mind I'll sub Assassinate for Polymorph just to be kind as it's more mana efficient.

1) Ragnaros. Even in best case for opponent, Rag comes out and either kills a mid-game minion (assuming you don't drop it at a horrible time) or does 8 damage to the opponent. Opponent then Assassinates it for 5 mana. If it kills a mid-game minion, it trades 2:1 on card advantage and gets a slight advantage in terms of mana advantage. If it hits the enemy hero, then it trades 1:1 in terms of cards and does 8 damage to the enemy hero in exchange for 3 mana.

And if the enemy can't remove it, it's basically game over within a few turns as no one can sustain the onslaught repeatedly.

2) Pyroblast. The ideal situation is that it deals 10 damage to the enemy hero and kills them. At a minimum though, the most common use is that if you can bring the enemy hero to 10 health, you can use it as a great game-finisher for only a single card. If you can't bring the enemy hero's health to 10, it's almost useless as it does nothing to swing the board, and in the late-game, that will lead to a loss within the near future. In a pinch, it can be used as an extremely inefficient minion removal card, doing for 8 mana what Assassinate does for 5.

-------

Now, like I said, I don't want to bash Pyro as it does have its uses obviously. But if I had to choose one or the other in Arena, I'd almost always pick Ragnaros. The consistent damage every turn, even if random, and the fact that it will at worst be a 1:1 card trade with the opponent outweighs in most situations to be the idea that I can do more damage in a non-random fashion but only one time, and lose card advantage in the process.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]