Having Trouble Playing Against Mages? Read

Posts: 5,356
01/12/2014 08:04 PMPosted by D3Management
The class is obviously getting nurfed. It's just a matter of when.


Tell Warlock, Paladin, ,Druid, and Rogue to stand in line then.
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Posts: 13,852
01/12/2014 09:08 AMPosted by Ramiel
Sar I am sorry, but no matter how hard I try, no matter what, I do I loose 99 % games vs mages.
Ive read your guide and it simply doesnt work.... No matter what minion i play its either get killed or frozen or polymorphed. Its not possible to get board control in early game vs mage. Mirror image, explosion, arcane missile and frostbolt are more than enough to win the board, Its like a snowball - at first they just stop my minions then, with more mana they play all those minions which reduce spell cost and its game over. Charge minions are only solution but they have low hp so flamestrikes counters them heavily. Mage spells are just too good, Uve said that healing spells are more effective - problem is to use them u actually need something that can be healed... Its not possible to kill a mage in first 6 turns. Turn 6 means blizzard and then turn 7 - flamestrike, ofc if they didnt save a coin. Mages just laugh at my face, Its broken class, I just wonder if ever they going to fix it.


A lot of these things are the same types of things you'd see against other classes and are basically just run of the mill fighting for board control. Things like Frostbolt and Arcane Missiles are barely different than any other direct removal cards you'd see. Arcane Explosion is a pretty weak aoe, but nonetheless, it's simply another aoe. Like I said, the things you're mentioning are predominantly things other classes would do as well.

My only advice I can give to you, quite seriously, is make a mage deck with these cards and try it out, you'll get a better feel for how to play against the class by doing so.
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Posts: 299
I doubt mages will be changed, but even if they are, unless I see new statistics available, I'll have to say that even Blizzard can make mistakes. But I don't anticipate they will.


That's the part where you admit you were wrong all along ^_^ And I get to say I told you so :-p
Edited by FMCorps on 1/14/2014 6:00 AM PST
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01/14/2014 05:44 AMPosted by FMCorps
I doubt mages will be changed, but even if they are, unless I see new statistics available, I'll have to say that even Blizzard can make mistakes. But I don't anticipate they will.


That's the part where you admit you were wrong all along ^_^ And I get to say I told you so :-p


I'll admit I was surprised they changed mage; in particular, I was surprised they changed Pyroblast, as I figured if they nerfed mage it would actually be something like Flamestrike or Mana Wyrm. Beyond that, I was actually surprised they changed as many cards as they did (not just mage); the posts and tweets I saw from Blizzard was making me think they weren't planning on changing cards much at this point, so I was really surprised to see a patch with something like 8 different card changes in it.

Still, I'm highly disappointed with most of the changes. Things like Dark Iron Dwarf and Abusive Sergeant I'm so-so on (I'm still not even sure if Dark Iron Dwarf if a net buff or net nerf; it's certainly a nerf to rush decks, but maybe not overall).

The rationale they used to justify many of the card changes was horrible though, which makes me concerned in the sense that it feels like they made bad changes just to pacify people whining in the forums.

1) Pyroblast. Their justification was that they didn't want mages to be able to do 20 direct damage with 2 cards, but the fix to it was that they didn't change the damage. So the justification and how they actually changed the card doesn't line up at all.

2) Blood Imp. I was suspecting we might see a change to this card, but the change they made seems to have made this card utterly worthless; instead of balancing it, it seems they just made it unusable (from what I can gather at least). Furthermore, the justification was "We thought Warlock had too many good 1-drops..." Well if that's the case, wouldn't the correct rationale be to change the mana cost of one of the 1-drops to something different? Instead, they didn't simply nerf the card, they seemed to have just removed the card from the game.

3) Defender of Argus. They said it was showing up in every deck, but that's not true; it was a great card in rush decks, but frequently unused in others.

What concerns me is that in the case of all three of these cards, these were probably the three most complained about cards on the forums, but I didn't see any numerical justification for doing the change, NOR did what they did to any of these cards line up with the justification they gave. Which leads me to believe that they simply buckled under the weight of a lot of newbs complaining, which is a really bad sign for the future of the game if that's true.

Beyond that, the game was in a relatively good state of balance, but with every patch they now seem to be making the balance of the game WORSE. For example, when they nerfed aspects of Priest and Hunter, they took two classes that if anything were underpowered and made them practically unplayable. They just seemingly nerfed Warriors pretty bad even if you aren't playing the OTK deck, and that was a class that was underpowered to begin with. Mages were making no particularly good showings recently yet they have a nerf in the form of Pyroblast (what effect that will have will have to wait to be seen, but obviously it will make the class at least a little bit weaker). Warlocks were the only well-performing class that got a nerf within the last two patches, but it feels like they hit them WAY too hard, as Blood Imp was an essential part of being able to do a Warlock rush.

So these patches seem to be making the balance of the game worse each time. That's the troubling trend.
Edited by Sar on 1/14/2014 11:44 AM PST
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Posts: 299
1) Pyroblast. Their justification was that they didn't want mages to be able to do 20 direct damage with 2 cards, but the fix to it was that they didn't change the damage. So the justification and how they actually changed the card doesn't line up at all.


=> Good nerf doesn't allow mages to top up pyro with even more damage. Gives a few more turns to manage mage direct damage.

2) Blood Imp.
Totaly broken in the previous implementation. Current implementation works like the princess still a good card IMO cause the health boosts are permanent even if the imp leaves the game..

3) Defender of Argus.
yup it does show up in nearly every deck. Great value card, one of the better monsters. Best 4 cost minion IMO. needed a nerf.

I would also have nerfed the paladin sword 4 mana is too cheap. Really pleased with the unleash the hounds even though I think the card is now too powerful.
Edited by FMCorps on 1/15/2014 2:50 AM PST
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01/15/2014 02:00 AMPosted by FMCorps
1) Pyroblast. Their justification was that they didn't want mages to be able to do 20 direct damage with 2 cards, but the fix to it was that they didn't change the damage. So the justification and how they actually changed the card doesn't line up at all.


=> Good nerf doesn't allow mages to top up pyro with even more damage. Gives a few more turns to manage mage direct damage.

2) Blood Imp.
Totaly broken in the previous implementation. Current implementation works like the princess still a good card IMO cause the health boosts are permanent even if the imp leaves the game..

3) Defender of Argus.
yup it does show up in nearly every deck. Great value card, one of the better monsters. Best 4 cost minion IMO. needed a nerf.

I would also have nerfed the paladin sword 4 mana is too cheap. Really pleased with the unleash the hounds even though I think the card is now too powerful.


Yeah, see, you are COMPLETELY mis-reading my post. You're trying to create a rationale justification for each of the nerfs. I can do that too; even disagreeing with some of the changes, I can at least give a rational reason they might do each. That's not the point. The point is look at the reason they GAVE. They didn't say, "We nerfing Pyroblast's mana so you have more time until you have to survive it," (note this was the justification for the MC mana nerf). They didn't mention Blood Imp synnergizing too well with rush decks, or Defender of Argus being a great card.

What they said was that they nerfed Pyroblast's mana cost because they felt that 10 damage was too much from a single card (but left it at 10 damage). They nerfed Blood Imp's ability because they felt that Warlocks had too many 1-drops, but left it as a 1-drop. They claimed to nerf Defender of Argus because it was used in too many decks, but I'm highly skeptical that you see it in more decks than something like Harvest Golem for example (if it's not the most-used card, then saying you're nerfing it because it's used too often if you leave more-frequently used cards alone makes no sense).

You're trying to fit reasonable justifications to each of these nerfs, but that's not the reason they said they did it. The reasons they said don't make any sense (for why I outlined), which leads me to believe it's not the actual reason they did it.

Read this, it explains this in more detail: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11224092828 Though it covers what is really the bigger-issue nerfs that seem to follow this same theme: Warriors, Hunters, and Priests, who couldn't really handle being made weaker than they already are.
Edited by Sar on 1/15/2014 9:20 AM PST
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Posts: 299
Just my 2c... didn't read the release to be honest just checked out the stat changes. Seemed to make sense to me. Like I said I would of changed even more cards.
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Posts: 13
Damn i`ve read almost everything. Thank you very much Sar, your advice is incredibly good, i`m newbie who likes the mage deck and others like priest and shaman but i am not spending money on the game. Can you give me advice how to gradually build a good mage deck. Currently i have common cards : kobold geomancers, azure drake, mana wyrm, blizzard and all other cards who doesnst cost more than 200 dust. One more time thank you for this icredibly useful post man ^^.

Also if you make a thread how to be good as a mage that`d be awesome!! I`ve learnt how to beat mages, but now i must learn how to play them.
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Posts: 55
Don't need to read all the topic, just the first post, and it's about:

"Calm down i'm Sar, i'm a mage (rank 4...), I arrived here quietly with basic low cost letters, and I'm not op."
Bullllllllssssssssss

Turn 8 ? Fireball, Fireball, and bye bye.

Mage is OP, end of story. GG (if you are a mage).

Agree ? No ? Ok, Turn 9, Pyroblast + any other card "1 less mana", bye bye.
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Posts: 707
this thread is basically just Sar stroking his ego. he defended pyroblast before it got nerfed, btw.
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Posts: 911
I think the Original post should be deleted and replaced with the following:

How to play against a Mage: An in depth guide.

Step 1: Cry and whine on the forums that Mages are OP.
Step 2: Throw yourself on the floor and start screaming about how OP Mages are.
Step 3: Threaten to hold your breath until Blizzard nerfs Mages.
Step 4: Repeat Steps 1 through 3 after Mages have been nerfed into the worst class in the game and you continue to lose against them...
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Posts: 6
Nerf flamestrike! So op in lategame dosent matter how many spell power buffed minion are on the battlefield!!!
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Posts: 787
02/02/2014 02:18 PMPosted by Silke
I think the Original post should be deleted and replaced with the following:

How to play against a Mage: An in depth guide.

Step 1: Cry and whine on the forums that Mages are OP.
Step 2: Throw yourself on the floor and start screaming about how OP Mages are.
Step 3: Threaten to hold your breath until Blizzard nerfs Mages.
Step 4: Repeat Steps 1 through 3 after Mages have been nerfed into the worst class in the game and you continue to lose against them...


Maybe your easy mode braindead class really is broken, you know?
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Posts: 794
Wait....this thread doesn't even explain how to counter.

Yeah...i'll just somehow get my cards up all past +5, hope none of them get poly'ed, and hope the mage isn't smart enough to put a +spell damage card up.

Unless I get every card and the right legendary's i'm screwed because of what are normal mage cards?

Not only that, you are entirely fighting the RNG so hard that if you screw up, you'll lose instantly.

Hardly a decent strategy. "Just take more damage than they can give out." Oh cool, well if i get lucky and the rng gods decide for me to do that, I "might" win. But odds are that mage is just going to poly the few minions that can stand up and then just win the minion game.
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Posts: 27
First, please forgive me if my english is bad. Foreigner talking.

I just read almost the entire thread since i'm quite pissed to loose vs Jaina almost everytime.

+1 for "heal just slow your loss", i main priest and i have some good healing cards... doens't really help.
+1 also for the "forget about rushing her". It won't work most of the time.

It's so obvious she's OP...too many good options. I mean ok all the classes have removals, some more than others, but Jaina is like having move than 1/3 of the deck removal/tempo stuffs. Sometimes if i don't have my words with Anduin (and the good ones specific to the attack dmg) i'm screwed, i need that and only that... not nova.... not silence i need THIS card. Jaina doesn't have this problem at all. She's like mcgiver...

Even the ability is so OP. Remove all those cheap or injured minions/divine shield for 2 mana, not tauntable, no retaliations, no NOTHING but jaina laugh at you.

Jaina is played like 30% of the time, i don't really wonder why.

I won't deny the fact that you are way bettter than me in this game Sar but that doesn't mean you are right saying she's not OP. For example i don't understand how using a 4 mana spells to remove a 6 health card is not worthing it... Do you even realise what you say here? I mean ok my priest can remove for 3 mana an high dmg card or rogue can remove for 5 any card but it is quite limited if you compare with a 6-or-more-in-whatever-you-want-to-be-raped... for 4 mana??? (or even less). Sure warlock can beat this with his 0 mana/4 dmg card and some other good ones but they have a solid drawback and not as much in deck. Same goes for chaman.

My 2 cents in this: Jaina needs another nerf. I would think of make her token to be 3 mana cost or rethink/remove poly. Or whatever but please blizz do something more usefull this time. Pyroblast was clearly not the only issue.
And while you're in balance issues, do something about Jaraxxus too... This card is the best joke ever. Thanks...

EDIT: After my last game, i even think about a nice new neutral removal ... "kill jaina" ...0 mana.... would be better balanced actually. Joke aside it was
1 nothing
2 removal of my acid swamp
3 nothing from me, 2 units from her: wyrm, coin, kirin tor + secret (3 mana for 4/3 + secret... another nice joke)
4 removal of my 4/5 yeti (fireball)
5 removal of my 5/5 lightspawn (fireball bis)
6 not much from me, her wyrm so strong now -> mirror image + another strong unit -> game over next turn (wtf??)

Some of you may say that every class can have a beat-all-hand from the start.. even if it's almost true the fact is that here you can change fireball with freeze/poly/mirror image...
Edited by Arbe on 3/19/2014 1:22 AM PDT
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Posts: 16
I still think mages are OP.
Playing a control druid deck, I controlled the board the entire game, and on one of the later turns I'm sitting with a full board of my minions, about 4 taunts and 25 health, and mage has an empty side of the board. Mage pops ice block to prevent me killing, and then next turn comes in with a full hand of spells, chucks down the sorcerer and assorted drakes and proceeds to do 25 damage to my face bypassing my meaningless taunts.

Sorry but how is that balanced? Are there even any other hero/decks out there that can produce such damage in 1 turn with an empty board? 25 damage for a single turn is !@#$ing ridiculous.
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Posts: 921
05/08/2014 06:52 AMPosted by generiK
I still think mages are OP.
Playing a control druid deck, I controlled the board the entire game, and on one of the later turns I'm sitting with a full board of my minions, about 4 taunts and 25 health, and mage has an empty side of the board. Mage pops ice block to prevent me killing, and then next turn comes in with a full hand of spells, chucks down the sorcerer and assorted drakes and proceeds to do 25 damage to my face bypassing my meaningless taunts.

Sorry but how is that balanced? Are there even any other hero/decks out there that can produce such damage in 1 turn with an empty board? 25 damage for a single turn is !@#$ing ridiculous.


Nice thread necromancy.

Anyway, I'm going to assume by "sorcerer" you mean Sorcerer's Apprentice, and by "assorted drakes" you mean Kobold Geomancer or Dalaran Mage (or Bloodmage Thalnos). If you meant Azure Drake then I'm not sure how he could unload that much damage in one turn because Drake costs 5 mana.

So, with that said, I'm guessing what happened is similar to the following:

Sorcerer's Apprentice + Kobold Geomancer or Dalaran Mage (4-5 mana total) giving -1 mana cost to spells and +1 spell power. That would allow the following sequence with the remaining mana:

2x Frostbolt (8 damage, 2 mana), 2x Ice Lance (10 damage, 0 mana), Fireball (7 damage, 3 mana), a total of 25 damage for 5 mana.

I get your frustration, but that combo takes 7 cards to pull off, plus he needed to draw an earlier Ice Block to survive long enough to do it, AND he needed to not use any of those spells on your minions, which meant he likely got some other cards to delay you. Getting a draw like that is going to happen once in a while, but not that often. Sounds like you just got unlucky.
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Posts: 19
I made a post in the warlock forums to get some advice on mages. I have come to the conclusion that I just cant beat them at my current 11-10 rank handlock warlock. I would be much higher but I run into a ton of mages, hunters. I see and get beat by zoo often also but if I get an aoe in the first 4 turns im usually ok. while im around 50% win on hunters I cant beat mages... I have tryed everything LOTS of healing 2x voodoo dr(mainly for overpowered+shadowflame aoe vs zoo) , 2x earhen ring farseer's, 1 priestess of elune. and alexstraza I took jaraxxus out of my deck for now cause I never got to use him unless I had already won a match and wanted a flashy KO.

no matter what I do mages have complete control. paralyze my minions turn 3-6 set up spell boosting minion turn 5-6 they always have a flamestrike somehow by then.. they can combo large amounts of damage right over anything I put standing in the way whatever turn after that. its crazy!
I know it sounds cookie cutter but I have had the above happen to me many different ways but it all results the same. I should just auto concede when I see a mage but thats really not my style.. It would really save me alot of frustrations in my playtime tho!
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Posts: 90
who the hell do you lose to a mage?? actualy who the hell does anyone lose to a mage?
Edited by Keloot on 5/8/2014 10:14 AM PDT
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Posts: 19
It is the only class I consistently lose to... cant beat them unless i switch decks/classes. everything else its a matter of execution and luck with card draws that beat me but, I can get my perfect draw and play flawless and still get beat almost every time... and it seems the times I win my opponent makes a mistake and/or gets a pretty crappy draw to lose (usually no flamestrike) but even then they I rarely am able to pull it off.
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