Problem with mages

Posts: 499
They have too many damage spells without much variation, and too many of those spells do area damage.

Really... Let's see how many removal spells they have

Fireblast
Arcane explosion
Arcane Missiles
Blizzard
Cone of Cold
Fireball
Flamestrike
Frostbolt
Ice Lance
Polymorph
Mirror Entity (Counted because at the very minimum, this spell can counteract whatever your opponent summons)
Pyroblast
and then finally, Vaporize.

13 spells.

4 of those spells deal area of effect damage. Then you have Frost Nova which pushes that number up to 5.

This would be fine, but there isn't a single one of these spells which come with any kind of penalty at all. In order for a Shaman or a Warlock to use this kind of board clear, they either need to damage themselves, their own minions, get overload or destroy cards in their hand.

Then for a paladin, druid or warrior to use this level of board clear, they mostly need to attack the enemy minion head on, resulting in the hero taking damage.

Let's also note that Fireblast, Fireball and Pyroblast all do exactly the same thing at varying degrees of damage. Same with Arcane Explosion, Blizzard and Flamestrike.

There needs to be some kind of penalty for Mages using all of these spells. I can think up about 5-6 ideas from the top of my head. Why can't you?
Reply Quote
Posts: 3
agreed and well worded
Reply Quote
Posts: 40
If for some reason a Mage ran all those cards in a deck, it would flat out fail. I don't think I need to elaborate on why.
Out of all those spells, the average at least decent Mage player will run maybe half of them.
The penalty? Mana cost. Blizzard is the all important 2 damage AOE nuke that occurs to Mages at 6 mana, which is more than any other class with this kind of spell. CoC now often does too little by turn 4. It will usually just chip at health while freezing a portion of the board. Pyroblast generally takes the Mage's entire turn to cast, and quite frankly, a LOT can happen on the board by that point in the game in 1 turn. By casting Pyroblast, a Mage essentially gives up board control. Fireball is fairly cost efficient, but if the Mage is forced to use it on minions, it drastically lowers his kill potential later in the game. Polymorph is much more suited for this kind of situation, and isn't very different from other removal spells in the same tier, such as Hex or Assassinate. Arcane Missiles aren't reliable, and neither is Ice Lance, though there are some fringe cases of decks running them. Arcane Missiles is becoming a bit more common to try and deal with early aggro, and pick off pesky minions like Blood Imp.

Shaman's get their board clear EXCEPTIONALLY early, at the cost of overload of course. Honestly it is probably the best in the game, considering it can do 3 base damage, and it isn't all that unlikely to have a spell power totem out when it is cast. Does that overload repercussion really make up for being able to cast Lightning Storm THREE turns before a Mage can cast his 2 damage board clear?
Paladin's can have a variety of ways to clear the board. He has Consecrate which occurs at 4 mana to start with, but Equality offers a lot of versatility. You can combo it with Wild Pyromancer or Avenging Wrath to clear the board.
Priest's Holy Nova occurs at 5 mana, the all important turn before a Mage can cast Blizzard. He can often wipe the Mage's side of the board, while healing his units up outside of Blizzard's death range. Not to mention he can remove any creature with an attack value outside of 4 for really, really, cheap.
Druid's Swipe is very cost effective, and can often result in a board wipe. Starfall occurs at 5 mana, and offers more versatility.
At the current state, Warlocks are going for the turn 5-7 win and overrunning the opponent with minions. Board clearing is not important with this theme. With this theme, Soulfire is almost always a free spell, since the Warlock will cast it with no other cards in his hand.
This is getting long, but Rogues, Warriors, and Hunters also have a variety of ways to kill minions or board clear for cheap.

I don't want to talk about every card, but let me ask you a question.
If you take what is left away from a Mage, what makes that class unique? How can he threaten you? If you give the equivalent of every spell to every class, what makes playing a different class unique?
Reply Quote
Posts: 499
12/24/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Akroma
If for some reason a Mage ran all those cards in a deck, it would flat out fail. I don't think I need to elaborate on why.
Out of all those spells, the average at least decent Mage player will run maybe half of them.
The penalty? Mana cost.


Okay, first of all, congratulations on completely missing the point. The point is that they can choose from 13 different damage spells, and if they wanted, could have 26 of them in their deck. Other classes are limited to about 6-8 damage spells at the maximum, and have penalties on half of them. Where a Shaman or a Warrior would have a total of 0 'damage all enemy minion spells', a Mage would have 6 of them, along with two frost novas and two cone of colds.

Second, I think you're spouting garbage in that last sentence. The penalty to almost every card in the game is mana cost. That's not a real penalty. Damage to yourself or your own minions is a penalty, destroying your own cards is a penalty, increasing your mana costs is a penalty.

And no one's suggesting to take anything away from the mage. However, they need some kind of penalty to be added to their spells to prevent the constant spamming of board clears.

They also need some cards potentially being removed and replaced with newer, more interesting cards. Pyroblast, Blizzard, Arcane explosion and Flamestrike are all able to be overhauled. They don't need so many cards which do the same thing.

Flamestrike isn't even a fun card. It just makes it so that mages can clear your entire side of the board at least once in each game.
Reply Quote
Posts: 40
12/24/2013 12:01 PMPosted by GreedyJuju
Okay, first of all, congratulations on completely missing the point. The point is that they can choose from 13 different damage spells, and if they wanted, could have 26 of them in their deck. Other classes are limited to about 6-8 damage spells at the maximum, and have penalties on half of them. Where a Shaman or a Warrior would have a total of 0 'damage all enemy minion spells', a Mage would have 6 of them, along with two frost novas and two cone of colds.


It doesn't matter what is available to a Mage. What matters is what goes in a deck. I think YOU are missing the point.
Also, the Mage's creatures are basically crap. If you remove some of those spells, you need to add more buffed creatures.
As I mentioned before, this kind of defeats the purpose of having different classes, when everyone just slams creatures into each other.

12/24/2013 12:01 PMPosted by GreedyJuju
Second, I think you're spouting garbage in that last sentence. The penalty to almost every card in the game is mana cost. That's not a real penalty. Damage to yourself or your own minions is a penalty, destroying your own cards is a penalty, increasing your mana costs is a penalty.


Increased mana costs is a SIGNIFICANT penalty. I pointed out how nearly every other class can effectively cast a blizzard 1, 2, or even 3 turns before a Mage can. How is this not enough penalty, where an aggro deck with a decent draw can dish out 10 or more damage by turn 5? Even then, by that point the minions can often have more than 2 health and Blizzard won't kill them. The best Blizzard does at that point is set up for a turn 7 Flamestrike, if the Mage is lucky. I guess he could cast a 2nd Blizzard, but that is just the luck of the draw.

So the Mage "nerf" wasn't actually a nerf by your logic. All the Mage's frost spells' CC got increased, but that isn't a nerf, because higher mana cost isn't a "penalty".

Yep.
Edited by Akroma on 12/24/2013 12:13 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 499
12/24/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Akroma

Increased mana costs is a SIGNIFICANT penalty. I pointed out how nearly every other class can effectively cast a blizzard 1, 2, or even 3 turns before a Mage can.


No other class has AoE freeze
Reply Quote
Posts: 499
12/24/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Akroma

Increased mana costs is a SIGNIFICANT penalty. I pointed out how nearly every other class can effectively cast a blizzard 1, 2, or even 3 turns before a Mage can.


Terrible isn't it? Even mages can cast an AoE damage attack before they can cast Blizzard. *Cough* Arcane Explosion

Let's also not forget, no other class has AoE freeze and is able to prevent the opponent from using ANY of their minions for up to 6 turns.
Edited by GreedyJuju on 12/24/2013 12:33 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 8
Akroma,

His argument is basically, mage has no penalty for their spells.
You counter argue that mage has increased cost to their spells.

He ignores your point completely and runs off in a different direction.

Don't bother explaining, he is too dense and biased to understand the words coming out of your mouth.
Edited by ASTUIT on 12/24/2013 12:36 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 213
12/24/2013 10:45 AMPosted by GreedyJuju
There needs to be some kind of penalty for Mages using all of these spells


Are u high or something? Requiring a lot of mana isnt a penalty?

12/24/2013 12:31 PMPosted by GreedyJuju
No other class has AoE freeze


Thats why the class is called MAGE idiot. Rogues have combos, warriors have weapons, paladins druid and priest have heals. are u braindead?

Let's also not forget, no other class has AoE freeze and is able to prevent the opponent from using ANY of their minions for up to 6 turns.


Implying i have 2 frost novas, 2 Coc, 2 Blizzard in my deck LOL thats like 26 mana to be used. How many mage decks have u seen having all those cards + minions to use. Stop saying stupid things with no logic of the game u god damn noobs
Edited by Gohanitos on 12/24/2013 12:38 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 8
Greedyjuju,

Do everyone a favor and stop playing this game, and don't post on the forums anymore if you are going to be biased
Reply Quote
Posts: 36
@GreedyJuju. You do realize that Blizzard in the creation/beta of this game are directly converting the classes spells/powers over from WoW to this? If you look at the Mages' spellbooks in this games parent, you will see an unholy amount of direct damage/board wipes. This is the Mages's bread and butter, it's defining theme. Why would they take that away to let melee toons just roll over them. It may be frustrating for some to play against, but at the same time if they limit the damage spells, then they are just other classes with a 2 cost "ping" ability.

@Akroma. You are correct sir/maam. increased mana cost is a huge penalty, and to three spells no less. I believe you have the right of this, I tend to agree with you over GreedyJuju.
Reply Quote
Posts: 829
The penalty for a mage "using all these spells" is having a terrible deck and not winning because cone of cold and blizzard are not good anymore. Arcane explosion is a combo card for it to be useful and its pretty easy to play around mirror entity / vaporize for players who have cleared rank 20.
Reply Quote
Posts: 23
Mages abound and are boring to play against. It is the most forgiving deck I have played. You have an easy counter to anything. Since they bore me to death, I will concede the game as soon as I see my opponent is a mage half the time, making the other half a balance number of mage matches vs other classes. Not comparatively to each class, mind, but vs all classes *combined*. They are that numerous, and there is just so many mages I can play in a row. I win some, but I know I work a lot more for that victory that my opponent is.

If I do a nice combo to boost a single creature, most decks have a counter or 2. Mages have half a douzen. If I manage to get a creature rush in, most classes have a clear or 2. Mages have various clears and freeze. If I try to go for character damage, I'll face up to 16 more points in armor, or can easily be outdammaged. I don't know, my matches against mages never seem as much as a show of skill as hoping he gets a very, very crappy draw.

In the same way, mage is the deck I'll play when I watch a movie or a game at the same time, since It doesn't require as much focus to do well. *shrug*
Edited by Myrdraal on 12/24/2013 1:36 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 40
This is in all seriousness with no flaming intended.
People who claim to run into Mages on a repetitive basis... What rank are you playing at?
I've run into maybe 1/10 games that are Mages past rank 15.
Now that number is roughly 1/20 games past rank 10.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5
It's actually simply on the ladder .
Rank 25 - > 15 , mage spam due to " broken class " thinking
Rank 15 -> 10 , numbers are starting to drop a lot
Rank 10 -> 1 , simply barely any mages left

Conclusion , in lower levels mages are simply a lot easier that most of the classes.

And to answer the OP problematic.

12/24/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Gohanitos

Thats why the class is called MAGE idiot. Rogues have combos, warriors have weapons, paladins druid and priest have heals. are u braindead?


The really problem with the game is the fact that direct damage spells ( NOT ONLY FREAKING MAGES ) need tweaking , balance around mana cost / damage ratios . It has nothing to do with the current class type .Frankly that is the whole point of a beta test ...
Reply Quote
Posts: 499
12/24/2013 12:37 PMPosted by ASTUIT
Greedyjuju,

Do everyone a favor and stop playing this game, and don't post on the forums anymore if you are going to be biased


Do everyone a favour and actually try to contribute to discussion. Currently, you're a waste of space.

12/24/2013 12:38 PMPosted by Bayushi
@GreedyJuju. You do realize that Blizzard in the creation/beta of this game are directly converting the classes spells/powers over from WoW to this?


Just because the spells were roughly based on the spells in World of Warcraft doesn't mean they're balanced. This is a completely different game to World of Warcraft with entirely different mechanics in an entirely different genre and requires different levels of balancing.

Mages are not fun to play, they're not fun to play against, their direct removal is too powerful, they have too many cloned spells and they're in need of changes or new mechanics.

And no, for the last time "they have increased mana costs" is not a penalty. Their mana costs are not increased. For the spells that the class has, the mana costs are perfectly fine. It's the spells that the class has which are the problem.

Removing flamestrike would be simple. Replace it with a minion, maybe even a new spell. Perhaps even make it a secret? I don't know. All I know is that a board reset is not something that's fun. When I play a mage I don't want to wait to simply reset the board and win, and when I play against mages I don't want to play knowing anything I summon will be destroyed on turn 7.

It's the same thing with Pyroblast, Blizzard or Frost Nova. These spells are currently just completely boring and do nothing but offer mages some easy board clear. These spells could easily be replaced by spells more inventful to make the class better.

And because half of you are so god damn dense that you apparently can't read.

No. One. In. This. Entire. Thread. Said. To. Nerf. Mages.

Can some of you please learn to read before posting counter arguments? Thanks.
Reply Quote
Posts: 40
12/24/2013 07:21 PMPosted by GreedyJuju
And no, for the last time "they have increased mana costs" is not a penalty. Their mana costs are not increased. For the spells that the class has, the mana costs are perfectly fine. It's the spells that the class has which are the problem.


Look, it is pretty clear to most reasonable people that a card that has higher CC than other class' rough equivalent is a huge disadvantage.
My argument was clear. It is up to you whether you want to accept it, or just be stubborn and disregard it. I tried to be helpful and explain it to you without flaming, and that is basically what I got from you in return, with no clear explanation as to how having a higher mana cost is NOT a penalty. Like, I don't even know what you mean by "their mana costs are not increased".

12/24/2013 07:21 PMPosted by GreedyJuju
No. One. In. This. Entire. Thread. Said. To. Nerf. Mages.


OK so what are you suggesting? You say that Mage cards are problematic. The only logical conclusion anyone would come to is that it is problematic because it is too powerful... otherwise.. it wouldn't be problematic.

12/24/2013 10:45 AMPosted by GreedyJuju
There needs to be some kind of penalty for Mages using all of these spells. I can think up about 5-6 ideas from the top of my head. Why can't you?


From your OP. I'm fairly certain that this can be translated into, "Mage's need to be nerfed".
Reply Quote
Posts: 36
@JuJu: I don't understand people complaining about facing this class or that class, based on a fun factor. Control decks and the like are not supposed to be fun, they are supposed to lock you out and limit your options to the bare minimum. Half the mentality of control decks are to tax and grind the opponent's patience/emotional responses. Also the psychological factors that come from "knowing/guessing" what will happen on what turn is another point in the control decks favor. It seems to me that you only want to engage in creature Vs. creature beatdown matches, which in my opinion are just as boring as you feel Mage's powers are.
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
Posts: 12,171
12/24/2013 10:45 AMPosted by GreedyJuju
They have too many damage spells without much variation, and too many of those spells do area damage.

Really... Let's see how many removal spells they have

Fireblast
Arcane explosion
Arcane Missiles
Blizzard
Cone of Cold
Fireball
Flamestrike
Frostbolt
Ice Lance
Polymorph
Mirror Entity (Counted because at the very minimum, this spell can counteract whatever your opponent summons)
Pyroblast
and then finally, Vaporize.

13 spells.

4 of those spells deal area of effect damage. Then you have Frost Nova which pushes that number up to 5.

This would be fine, but there isn't a single one of these spells which come with any kind of penalty at all. In order for a Shaman or a Warlock to use this kind of board clear, they either need to damage themselves, their own minions, get overload or destroy cards in their hand.

Then for a paladin, druid or warrior to use this level of board clear, they mostly need to attack the enemy minion head on, resulting in the hero taking damage.

Let's also note that Fireblast, Fireball and Pyroblast all do exactly the same thing at varying degrees of damage. Same with Arcane Explosion, Blizzard and Flamestrike.

There needs to be some kind of penalty for Mages using all of these spells. I can think up about 5-6 ideas from the top of my head. Why can't you?


In all fariness, if you're talking about a Shaman "penalty", it costs them 3 mana + 2 overload to do 2-3 damage to the whole board; it costs a mage 6 mana to do 2 damage to the whole board. So the Shaman gets more damage for less mana; that's hardly a penalty, that's a perk (the overload means it gets spread out over 2 turns rather than taking your full turn to aoe).

Anyway, I think you'll find most of these cards are nowhere near as strong as you think. What I recommend is that you make a deck composed of ALL of these cards (if you think they're so overpowered, that is), then win 10 games with it (not play 10 games; win 10 games). If the cards are as strong as you think, this won't take long. You may finish still thinking that some of these cards are too strong, but I guarantee you'll have a new perspective using these cards rather than having them used against you.
Reply Quote
Posts: 7
Agree with the OP completely. Mages are overpowered not because of the pyroblast. Its all these AOE, board clearing cards. I main a warlock, my board clear also effects my health/side. You could be dominating a mage with 4+ monster's summoned and the mage will wipe out you're whole side with one card.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]