Problem with mages

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12/28/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Vadic
Agree with the OP completely. Mages are overpowered not because of the pyroblast. Its all these AOE, board clearing cards. I main a warlock, my board clear also effects my health/side. You could be dominating a mage with 4+ monster's summoned and the mage will wipe out you're whole side with one card.


As annoying as some of the aoe's are, these statistics seem to indicate the class isn't actually overpowered (it has a reported win rate under 50%).

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11041384299
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Lost another game today with 4 taunts up because of double iceblock. First block triggered, he hit me with a pyro and casted his second iceblock. Threw down a creature, ended his turn. Triggered the next iceblock, then got hit by pyro frostbolt to lose the game. horse!@#$. and don't say run more heals!
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12/28/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Karishin
Lost another game today with 4 taunts up because of double iceblock. First block triggered, he hit me with a pyro and casted his second iceblock. Threw down a creature, ended his turn. Triggered the next iceblock, then got hit by pyro frostbolt to lose the game. horse!@#$. and don't say run more heals!


I don't have to say "run more heals" if you didn't run any heals; the statement would just be "run heals" :)
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Agree with the OP completely. Mages are overpowered not because of the pyroblast. Its all these AOE, board clearing cards. I main a warlock, my board clear also effects my health/side. You could be dominating a mage with 4+ monster's summoned and the mage will wipe out you're whole side with one card.


As annoying as some of the aoe's are, these statistics seem to indicate the class isn't actually overpowered (it has a reported win rate under 50%).

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11041384299

What you've just done is statistical mastur-bation

Hearthstone is in beta and all players are relatively new to the game...you can't base what is overpowered/underpowered on current win rates. Most players are not particularly good at this point. They will eventually learn how to properly play a mage
Edited by Vadic on 12/28/2013 12:32 PM PST
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12/28/2013 12:31 PMPosted by Vadic


As annoying as some of the aoe's are, these statistics seem to indicate the class isn't actually overpowered (it has a reported win rate under 50%).

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11041384299

What you've just done is statistical mastur-bation

Hearthstone is in beta and all players are relatively new to the game...you can't base what is overpowered/underpowered on current win rates. Most players are not particularly good at this point. They will eventually learn how to properly play a mage


The beta started like 4-5 months ago, we're well beyond the point of everyone being new and ignorant.

Furthermore, your argument of "people will eventually learn how to properly play a mage" could just as equally be flipped to "people will eventually learn how to properly play AGAINST a mage" or "people will eventually learn how to properly play as class X" (no matter what that class is.

Statistics are far better than perception because most people's perception is horrible; they're biased to notice abnormalities and not to notice more consistent trends. This is why newbs constantly come in claiming that Coin is incredibly overpowered despite the fact that all statistical indications show that player 1 has the advantage. And the reason why people like you don't like statistics is that they force you to realize that you're not being steamrolled by some unbeatable class (apparently 52% of people manage to do it), but rather, it's because YOU don't know what you're doing.
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What you've just done is statistical mastur-bation

Hearthstone is in beta and all players are relatively new to the game...you can't base what is overpowered/underpowered on current win rates. Most players are not particularly good at this point. They will eventually learn how to properly play a mage


The beta started like 4-5 months ago, we're well beyond the point of everyone being new and ignorant.

Furthermore, your argument of "people will eventually learn how to properly play a mage" could just as equally be flipped to "people will eventually learn how to properly play AGAINST a mage" or "people will eventually learn how to properly play as class X" (no matter what that class is.

Statistics are far better than perception because most people's perception is horrible; they're biased to notice abnormalities and not to notice more consistent trends. This is why newbs constantly come in claiming that Coin is incredibly overpowered despite the fact that all statistical indications show that player 1 has the advantage. And the reason why people like you don't like statistics is that they force you to realize that you're not being steamrolled by some unbeatable class (apparently 52% of people manage to do it), but rather, it's because YOU don't know what you're doing.


"Statistics are far better than perception"

First of all, statistics are only useful or "better" when they are presented properly.

Second, who said I hated statistics? I'm trying to explain to you that one can use data in many different ways to support their argument, but not necessarily reality. That is statistical mastu-rbation my friend.

Basing your determination of how to balance the game on win rates during beta is foolish. Moreover, to say that all players within the current beta are seasoned at Hearthstone just because its been out for 5 months is yet another way you use fuzzy, insufficient data to twist reality and support your argument. Yes, the game has been out that long, but how many players have been playing Hearthstone since the beginning? How frequently did they play? How many started and then stopped?

My point is, without first answering these questions and subsequently presenting the data behind them, what you are pontificating is pure supposition
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The beta started like 4-5 months ago, we're well beyond the point of everyone being new and ignorant.

Furthermore, your argument of "people will eventually learn how to properly play a mage" could just as equally be flipped to "people will eventually learn how to properly play AGAINST a mage" or "people will eventually learn how to properly play as class X" (no matter what that class is.

Statistics are far better than perception because most people's perception is horrible; they're biased to notice abnormalities and not to notice more consistent trends. This is why newbs constantly come in claiming that Coin is incredibly overpowered despite the fact that all statistical indications show that player 1 has the advantage. And the reason why people like you don't like statistics is that they force you to realize that you're not being steamrolled by some unbeatable class (apparently 52% of people manage to do it), but rather, it's because YOU don't know what you're doing.


"Statistics are far better than perception"

First of all, statistics are only useful or "better" when they are presented properly.

Second, who said I hated statistics? I'm trying to explain to you that one can use data in many different ways to support their argument, but not necessarily reality. That is statistical mastu-rbation my friend.

Basing your determination of how to balance the game on win rates during beta is foolish. Moreover, to say that all players within the current beta are seasoned at Hearthstone just because its been out for 5 months is yet another way you use fuzzy, insufficient data to twist reality and support your argument. Yes, the game has been out that long, but how many players have been playing Hearthstone since the beginning? How frequently did they play? How many started and then stopped?

My point is, without first answering these questions and subsequently presenting the data behind them, what you are pontificating is pure supposition


Do you have any better data, statistics, etc. to base your opinions on? If not, these are the best statistics we have access to, and they're going to be far better than people going "Well, i FEEL like X needs to be done."

Furthermore, you keep stating why the statistics MIGHT not be reliable (not that they aren't reliable, but that there's a chance of a chance of a chance they might not be completely accurate), but you fail to give ANY reason whatsoever why one class would be affected moreso than another. For example, you keep bringing up "Well, the game has newbs, so it doesn't count." Do you have any justification that such a factor will affect mages moreso than other classes? If not, then you're point is utterly irrelevant.
Edited by Sar on 12/28/2013 1:08 PM PST
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12/27/2013 01:54 AMPosted by Sar

In all fariness, if you're talking about a Shaman "penalty", it costs them 3 mana + 2 overload to do 2-3 damage to the whole board; it costs a mage 6 mana to do 2 damage to the whole board. So the Shaman gets more damage for less mana; that's hardly a penalty, that's a perk (the overload means it gets spread out over 2 turns rather than taking your full turn to aoe).


Really? Are you being serious right now?

Talk about being selective. Blizzard costs 6 mana because it also freezes all minions on the board. Do you quite understand how powerful freeze is as a mechanic? You know I'm right, so you have to try and twist the facts and miss out points to make yours. If you're going to post any kind of argument for a debate, at least make it a truthful one.

I'm not even going to quote your second paragraph. Pure garble that I don't even want to begin talking about. Please don't post in this thread, it's evident you're just trolling.
Edited by GreedyJuju on 12/28/2013 2:27 PM PST
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12/28/2013 01:06 PMPosted by Sar

Do you have any better data, statistics, etc. to base your opinions on? If not, these are the best statistics we have access to, and they're going to be far better than people going "Well, i FEEL like X needs to be done."

Furthermore, you keep stating why the statistics MIGHT not be reliable (not that they aren't reliable, but that there's a chance of a chance of a chance they might not be completely accurate), but you fail to give ANY reason whatsoever why one class would be affected moreso than another. For example, you keep bringing up "Well, the game has newbs, so it doesn't count." Do you have any justification that such a factor will affect mages moreso than other classes? If not, then you're point is utterly irrelevant.


The data is evidently what you want it to be. You criticize my reasoning behind my point, yet what you're doing is laughable. I've already dismantled your argument based on the statistics you used; to put it in lamens terms for you, they are incomplete and insufficient to prove what you are trying to say.

Moreover, your constant character assignations and mis-characterizations of what I am trying to point out is tiring, to say the least. Never did I claim that the game "has newbs, therefore X does not count". What I tried to explain is that the game is relatively new, and has not been officially released. The data that you presented assumes too much for what your argument states, because you have not accounted for the amount of time people spent playing the game.

You presented Win Rates and declared your position as absolute truth, whilst all other opinions are based on "feelings". I will say it for the last time, statistics are irrelevant when one does not understand context and how to properly apply them to an argument.

I'm sorry, but you lost the chess match from your very first response.
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12/28/2013 11:18 PMPosted by Vadic

Moreover, your constant character assignations and mis-characterizations of what I am trying to point out is tiring, to say the least. Never did I claim that the game "has newbs, therefore X does not count". What I tried to explain is that the game is relatively new, and has not been officially released. The data that you presented assumes too much for what your argument states, because you have not accounted for the amount of time people spent playing the game.


It's easy to criticize data as being faulty when you have none of your own. If you have better statistics, put them up and I'll make a judgment based off of that. If not, these are the best data we have, and YOU are just ignoring them because they're disproving what you want to believe.

12/28/2013 02:21 PMPosted by GreedyJuju

I'm not even going to quote your second paragraph. Pure garble that I don't even want to begin talking about. Please don't post in this thread, it's evident you're just trolling.


Of course you won't quote my second paragraph; it told you that if you think these mage cards are so powerful, make a deck of them then win 10 games. If they're as overpowered as you say it should be quick and easy.
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There are too many removals in the mage's deck....He gains board control pretty easily , specially if he starts with a wyrm on first turn. Or has coin... Besides him gaining control , after that its a really hard STRUGGLE to get back board control. By the time you get it....You're under 20hp and you'll just be pyroblasted to death. GG WP
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...

I seriously don't get why we're having such a debate. Mages are supposed to be a more AoE, controllish class. That's their niche. It's even represented in their minions. We don't have weapons nor minion buffs nor divine shields and all to help us control the board, we have spells. That's exaclty the point.

I've personally tried running a heavy removal deck when I first started the game because I simply emulated MTG's blue-black control deck style which runs mostly spells.

It failed horribly. You can give it a shot if you wish. Maybe then you'll realise how many of the spells available are not as great in practise and why playing a minion to control the board is usually better. You need a combination of both.

The freeze mechanic in blizzard is not always that useful. Unless you're playing an all out stall deck or am trying to combo it with doomsayer or something, I usually find myself in situations where I'd prefer if it did more damage and dropped the freeze. But of course, having the freeze, in exchange for damage does open up more options in how it's played.

All in all, I'm just saying that unless you find some control mages that are currently rampaging right now... Which probably isn't the case since we're suffering post-nerf, please tell me. It'll validate your points and also allow me to check out their deck lists :) I'm really curious to know that.
Edited by mxksowie on 1/11/2014 11:11 PM PST
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I can handle all the spells but can we please not let the mage attack her own creatures for 1 damage.

It makes things like Wargen and Beserker go completely out of control.
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I understand what this post is saying, I want to add that a rogue is pretty deadly to a control deck. I run a control deck, with roughly 30-40% of my cards being freeze spells, and even though I'm fairly new I think I get the gist of it pretty well. A rogue, if I'm not focusing and paying attention, will steamroll me. Preists and warlocks put up a tough fight too.

Typically when I die it's by round 10-12, before any real board clears come out. Yeah the mana is available but it doesnt make it totally useful. Big cards are pretty tough to counter that early for me as a mage. Bringing anything out with 4+ hp early makes me think harder.
Edited by GBM on 1/18/2014 11:27 AM PST
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rofl OP has no clue. This thread is epic trash
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I agree with op, the amount of AoE spell damage (that can be buffed) is broken.
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12/28/2013 02:21 PMPosted by GreedyJuju

In all fariness, if you're talking about a Shaman "penalty", it costs them 3 mana + 2 overload to do 2-3 damage to the whole board; it costs a mage 6 mana to do 2 damage to the whole board. So the Shaman gets more damage for less mana; that's hardly a penalty, that's a perk (the overload means it gets spread out over 2 turns rather than taking your full turn to aoe).


Really? Are you being serious right now?

Talk about being selective. Blizzard costs 6 mana because it also freezes all minions on the board. Do you quite understand how powerful freeze is as a mechanic? You know I'm right, so you have to try and twist the facts and miss out points to make yours. If you're going to post any kind of argument for a debate, at least make it a truthful one.

I'm not even going to quote your second paragraph. Pure garble that I don't even want to begin talking about. Please don't post in this thread, it's evident you're just trolling.

FINALLY someone who gets it!
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You guys are kidding me, right?!

12/24/2013 04:14 PMPosted by Meler
It's actually simply on the ladder .
Rank 25 - > 15 , mage spam due to " broken class " thinking
Rank 15 -> 10 , numbers are starting to drop a lot
Rank 10 -> 1 , simply barely any mages left


This I like the most because its true. As soon as players learn to deal with Mage players, they just Ranks quickly to the top. Players like me that are hard code Mage players, need to construct quite some carefully planned deck just to jump from Rank 17 to 10. On Friday for example and the last week of last season I was stuck on Rank 17, because people learned to deal with Pyro. Now I changed the deck a lot just to adapt to the current changes that has been made to a lot of cards I have noticed.

From your OP. I'm fairly certain that this can be translated into, "Mage's need to be nerfed".


Mage does not need to be nerfed any more to be honest. With the current environment of speed-decks that I have faced is, that Mage actually need to get more power cards.

Most games I play (Regardless win or lose) are over by round 5 - 7. So if people want to penalize the Mage for exactly that, "being a Mage". it really divines the purpose for playing Mage.

Anyway, I think you'll find most of these cards are nowhere near as strong as you think. What I recommend is that you make a deck composed of ALL of these cards (if you think they're so overpowered, that is), then win 10 games with it (not play 10 games; win 10 games). If the cards are as strong as you think, this won't take long. You may finish still thinking that some of these cards are too strong, but I guarantee you'll have a new perspective using these cards rather than having them used against you.


Agree
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Funny Thread :)

Actually Mages are worm fodder! why? because aside of the spells they got their creatures suck balls compared to other classes.

a mage using aoe in the first turn they are able to do is idiotic they can clear the board - maybe- but they cant do anything else in that turn the enemy still got first go there tons of combos to play for keeping control of the match if you place more that 2 creatures against a mage you may be drunk as hell.

i would say mage is more underpowered than overpowerd because they have less choices to build a running deck that is not completly luck based.
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12/28/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Vadic
Agree with the OP completely. Mages are overpowered not because of the pyroblast. Its all these AOE, board clearing cards. I main a warlock, my board clear also effects my health/side. You could be dominating a mage with 4+ monster's summoned and the mage will wipe out you're whole side with one card.


All that AOE means nothing if it comes too late. Aggro rush decks will have you dead by turn 7, which is too late for Flamestrike. Even if you're still alive by then your health is so low that one Arcane Golem or Leeroy can finish you off. Control decks tend to have less minions with more health. A lot of mages, including myself, have taken Flamestrike out completely because most of the time it ended up getting used on one single minion that would still take a frostbolt to finish off. Good opponents know not to overextend when playing around turn 7 against a mage. As for the rest of the AOE most of it is just stalls. Sure we have Arcane explosion, but that usually doesn't kill everything. Ya, we could combine it with Pyromancer, but that's 4 mana for 2 dmg to the board (same as a Consecrate), but it requires a combo and the minion we put out is half dead.

Personally I try and use minions to counter early aggression, cause my mage AOE comes too late.
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