Mage secrets are broken

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8 armour, Immune to Lethal damage, copy a minion, or destroy one, switch spell target, and all this costing 3?

gotta favour another class, really. Mage's are too favoured with the freezing bull!@#$
Edited by Anguish on 12/28/2013 7:01 AM PST
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7 armour, Immune to Lethal damage, copy a minion, or destroy one, switch spell target


8 armor > 8 health (for mage)
Immune to lethal damage - only good in decks which needs extra turns for finishers like pyro
Copy a minion - Ok, you can have a copy of my 1 mana minion.
Destroy one - ok, you can destroy my 1 mana minion.
Switch Spell target - sometimes a decent card. But I don't see many people play it. First there has to be a spell which targets a single target...
Counter spell - Same as above. There must be a spell first to be countered

Since you can trigger secrets they are less strong than the text itself says.
It's easy to play around secrets. If someone plays a secret, maybe you shouldn't play your best minion first, or attack with your best minion...
So pls stop crying
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Copying even a 1 mana minion in early turns is a big deal, same with vaporizing it.
Late game you won't necessarily even have small minions in hand, so you either let big one get copied or play nothing at all, both of which are bad options.

8 armor is better than heal for 8, also since it's a secret it forces checks to see which one it is.
Ice block sets up for stupid instakill combos and counterspell/bender eat your precious spells. (if you have useless spells in your deck then you are doing it wrong)

Stop sugar coating it. Mage has best secrets, best spells, best hero power and very strong minions. There are no downsides.
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12/27/2013 10:27 AMPosted by ShatBriks
Copying even a 1 mana minion in early turns is a big deal, same with vaporizing it.


How is that any different than simply playing a 3-cost minion or destroying a 3-drop with something like a Shadow Bolt?

This is what I'm talking about when people seem to think that secrets are a free card. They're not; you still have to pay the mana cost and a card to use them. Mirror Entity copies a card, but it only has a net benefit if it copies a card of higher than 3 cost that doesn't have a battlecry (for example, copying a Defender of Argus, even though it's a 4-drop, is weaker than what a mage could have played themself for 3-cost). It can also be spoofed by dropping something weak, like a Novice Engineer.

The same is true for Vaporize. Compare it to something like Shadow Bolt; for 3-cost, you can kill something with 4 health. If Vaporize takes out something big, yeah, that's awesome; but it can also be spoofed by running a token into the enemy hero.

In either case, the only secret in the game that MIGHT be overpowered is Ice Block; I'm not even sure if it is, but if it is overpowered, it's only because of cards that synnergize overly well with it, such as Molten Giant (which has its own set of balance issues). Secrets have a lot of leniency to be worked around and be extremely weak. If you can't work around them, then that's called a good play by the mage. This is actually the sign of a well balanced card; one that's very weak when used at the wrong time but can be extremely good if used at a good time.
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12/27/2013 10:54 AMPosted by Sar
How is that any different than simply playing a 3-cost minion or destroying a 3-drop with something like a Shadow Bolt?


The thing is that the one who played the minions can't attack until it's a charge, the mage can attack with his copied minion on the same turn.

B2t, my opinion about the secrets.

Ice Barriere: Is fine, 8 Armor for 3 mana that can't be triggered by spells is pretty balanced

Ice Block: Broken, cause of no possible counter, except flare

Counterspell: Pretty strong and hard to trigger without losing a strong spell, at least the mana cost of the spell should be refunded, luckly the current mage meta does'nt include Counterspell

Spellbender: Should be changed to only negative spells, that spellbender can be buffed from Blessing of Kings is just rediculous.

Vaporize: is fine, it's possible to play around it if you play a weak minion.

Mirror Entity: pretty strong, but also fine, but it should be triggered before the battlecry of a minion. Was pretty speechless after a mage copied my 13/12 Void Terror and could even attack before me.

All in all is the variety of the secrets to big, in worst cases you have to waste lots of stuff or skip a turn just to find out what secret is played.

Sry for my english
Edited by Serefina on 12/27/2013 12:20 PM PST
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The same is true for Vaporize. Compare it to something like Shadow Bolt; for 3-cost, you can kill something with 4 health. If Vaporize takes out something big, yeah, that's awesome; but it can also be spoofed by running a token into the enemy hero.


I can't really belive you got MVP dude, you've got to be the most biased person I've seen in a long time. please take off your goggles, they are too tight.
Also, are you really telling me that you drop vaporize as early as you can use it?

12/27/2013 10:54 AMPosted by Sar
In either case, the only secret in the game that MIGHT be overpowered is Ice Block; I'm not even sure if it is, but if it is overpowered

Because being having the only card that avoid death isn't overpowered at all, am I right?

12/27/2013 10:54 AMPosted by Sar
This is actually the sign of a well balanced card; one that's very weak when used at the wrong time but can be extremely good if used at a good time.

lol.
Edited by Anguish on 12/27/2013 5:12 PM PST
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Just had a game where a mage was able to Pyroblast/Frostbolt me to death solely because he happened to be able to ice block on back to back turns. With all the other utilities mages have at their disposal, having secrets like that for 3 mana is really broken. At least make it so the ice block only blocks that one lethal attack. Rendering the mage immune for an entire turn is ridiculous. I haven't had many complaints about class balance in this game, but that's one occasion where I strongly feel like I was just cheated out of a win.
Edited by Strifesong on 12/27/2013 7:31 PM PST
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12/27/2013 10:27 AMPosted by ShatBriks
Copying even a 1 mana minion in early turns is a big deal, same with vaporizing it.


You think anyone with any sense will play a 3 mana secret in the early turns to copy or destroy a 1 mana minion? I think I see why you're losing...
Edited by Scerion on 12/27/2013 9:14 PM PST
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12/27/2013 07:28 PMPosted by Strifesong
Just had a game where a mage was able to Pyroblast/Frostbolt me to death solely because he happened to be able to ice block on back to back turns. With all the other utilities mages have at their disposal, having secrets like that for 3 mana is really broken. At least make it so the ice block only blocks that one lethal attack. Rendering the mage immune for an entire turn is ridiculous. I haven't had many complaints about class balance in this game, but that's one occasion where I strongly feel like I was just cheated out of a win.


Jesus, it's not cheating, you scrub. The mage player probably knew that he could beat you if he outlasted you on that turn, so the secret was used for its intended purpose, to lure you into attacking and not - I don't know, maybe healing yourself if you were at 12hp. Obviously he beat you down to 12hp. He knew he had enough firepower to last one more turn. He played better than you did.
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In either case, the only secret in the game that MIGHT be overpowered is Ice Block; I'm not even sure if it is, but if it is overpowered

Because being having the only card that avoid death isn't overpowered at all, am I right?


This is a very newbish but frequently spouted view on Ice Block. If a player plays Ice Block, they're using a card and mana that they could have otherwise been using to avoid being in a death situation. For example, if you want to stick to 3-mana cards, you could replace Ice Block with something like a Harvest Golem or a Shattered Sun Cleric; dropped on turn 3 where they can affect board position, it's completely feasible that a game where Ice Block saved the Mage from death for one turn could be turned into a game where the Mage never ends up on the verge of death. In essence, you're sacrificing board position to play Ice Block; many newbs seem to think that secrets are "free" cards because they're forgetting that the secret was a card that was played for mana and just didn't trip until later, which is something that seems to be repetitively occurring in this thread (i.e. "They got a minion for free from Mirror Entity" or "They destroyed a minion for free with Vaporize".)

In short though, there are a lot of cards that "avoid death". If I put a Sunwalker down when my opponent has fatal damage on the board, I've just avoided death for at least a turn. If I aoe my opponent's minions away, I've just avoided death for one turn. If I Assassinate a Giant I can't handle, I just avoided death for one turn. The only difference between these situations and Ice Block is that, while Ice Block allows me to prevent any amount of fatal damage, all of these other cards actually destroy things on the board, whereas Ice Block does not.
Edited by Sar on 12/27/2013 11:57 PM PST
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Just had a game where a mage was able to Pyroblast/Frostbolt me to death solely because he happened to be able to ice block on back to back turns. With all the other utilities mages have at their disposal, having secrets like that for 3 mana is really broken. At least make it so the ice block only blocks that one lethal attack. Rendering the mage immune for an entire turn is ridiculous. I haven't had many complaints about class balance in this game, but that's one occasion where I strongly feel like I was just cheated out of a win.


Jesus, it's not cheating, you scrub. The mage player probably knew that he could beat you if he outlasted you on that turn, so the secret was used for its intended purpose, to lure you into attacking and not - I don't know, maybe healing yourself if you were at 12hp. Obviously he beat you down to 12hp. He knew he had enough firepower to last one more turn. He played better than you did.


I didn't say it was cheating, I said that's how it feels when there's a class in the game that can delay a game for back to back turns. You don't think I would have stopped and healed if I had any healing cards in my hand? I'm not some amazing player, but I'm no 'scrub' as you so eloquently put it, either (that was actually the only mage I lost to that day). I don't see how anyone can deny that Mages are the simplest class to play simply because of the sheer level of versatility they have over every other class. 'just heal yourself out of lethal range u scrub' isn't a valid point to make for those who happen to be running one of the six classes in the game without class-specific healing just because there's one class in the game that can go immune to damage for multiple turns and force you to spend the rest of your turn on the defensive. Sorry, I don't see how a game mechanism like that is fun to play, ESPECIALLY against a class that already has the kind of firepower that they can drop you from 13-0 with a simple Pyroblast/Frostbolt combo, or already has a delay mechanism with their assortment of freezes.
Edited by Strifesong on 12/28/2013 6:58 AM PST
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goggles still too tight. quit assuming.

there's no way you can assume that the sunwalker will actually protect you that turn, or the AoE removal will really make a difference as well. None of those plays are fail-proof. Direct damage or anything else could pretty much mess up with it.

Ice block is fail-proof. Also, if you're really playing it on turn 3 as you're implying, then, it's your own issue.

12/27/2013 11:56 PMPosted by Sar
In essence, you're sacrificing board position to play Ice Block; many newbs seem to think that secrets are "free" cards because they're forgetting that the secret was a card that was played for mana and just didn't trip until later, which is something that seems to be repetitively occurring in this thread (i.e. "They got a minion for free from Mirror Entity" or "They destroyed a minion for free with Vaporize".)


No, I did imply that the mage secrets are too cost effecient for the stupid effects they got. Again, you assume too much with that cocky attitude of yours. It's not my fault that you're playing it on turn 3, or making bad plays with it
Edited by Anguish on 12/28/2013 7:05 AM PST
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Because being having the only card that avoid death isn't overpowered at all, am I right?


This is a very newbish but frequently spouted view on Ice Block. If a player plays Ice Block, they're using a card and mana that they could have otherwise been using to avoid being in a death situation. For example, if you want to stick to 3-mana cards, you could replace Ice Block with something like a Harvest Golem or a Shattered Sun Cleric; dropped on turn 3 where they can affect board position, it's completely feasible that a game where Ice Block saved the Mage from death for one turn could be turned into a game where the Mage never ends up on the verge of death. In essence, you're sacrificing board position to play Ice Block; many newbs seem to think that secrets are "free" cards because they're forgetting that the secret was a card that was played for mana and just didn't trip until later, which is something that seems to be repetitively occurring in this thread (i.e. "They got a minion for free from Mirror Entity" or "They destroyed a minion for free with Vaporize".)

In short though, there are a lot of cards that "avoid death". If I put a Sunwalker down when my opponent has fatal damage on the board, I've just avoided death for at least a turn. If I aoe my opponent's minions away, I've just avoided death for one turn. If I Assassinate a Giant I can't handle, I just avoided death for one turn. The only difference between these situations and Ice Block is that, while Ice Block allows me to prevent any amount of fatal damage, all of these other cards actually destroy things on the board, whereas Ice Block does not.


Your latter paragraph is woefully out of touch. Those points you make can all be played around: Sunwalker can be silenced. A minion with charge or a direct damage spell can be played if your minions get AOE'd or Assassinated. Ice Block FORCES someone to play defensive for their turn because they know they can't do anymore damage to the Mage on that turn. The only thing that anyone can do to truly combat Ice Block is to use Hunter Flares, and god have mercy on your soul if you play Hunter in the current meta. I actually didn't agree entirely with the freeze nerfs because yeah, while freeze can potentially delay you, even that is possible to be played around (like silencing a frozen minion that can do lethal damage). Playing against a class that already has so many abilities to bypass Taunt leaves you with no other reliable option to avoid getting cheezed than to heal, and how many decent healing cards are really out there for those who play one of the six classes in the game that have no class-specific healing sources? It's simply unrealistic to think that someone is going to bog down their deck with neutral healing when there's so few neutral healing cards out there right now that are any good, just so they can have a better chance against ONE class.
Edited by Strifesong on 12/28/2013 7:09 AM PST
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This is a very newbish but frequently spouted view on Ice Block. If a player plays Ice Block, they're using a card and mana that they could have otherwise been using to avoid being in a death situation. For example, if you want to stick to 3-mana cards, you could replace Ice Block with something like a Harvest Golem or a Shattered Sun Cleric; dropped on turn 3 where they can affect board position, it's completely feasible that a game where Ice Block saved the Mage from death for one turn could be turned into a game where the Mage never ends up on the verge of death. In essence, you're sacrificing board position to play Ice Block; many newbs seem to think that secrets are "free" cards because they're forgetting that the secret was a card that was played for mana and just didn't trip until later, which is something that seems to be repetitively occurring in this thread (i.e. "They got a minion for free from Mirror Entity" or "They destroyed a minion for free with Vaporize".)

In short though, there are a lot of cards that "avoid death". If I put a Sunwalker down when my opponent has fatal damage on the board, I've just avoided death for at least a turn. If I aoe my opponent's minions away, I've just avoided death for one turn. If I Assassinate a Giant I can't handle, I just avoided death for one turn. The only difference between these situations and Ice Block is that, while Ice Block allows me to prevent any amount of fatal damage, all of these other cards actually destroy things on the board, whereas Ice Block does not.


Your latter paragraph is woefully out of touch. Those points you make can all be played around: Sunwalker can be silenced. A minion with charge or a direct damage spell can be played if your minions get AOE'd or Assassinated. Ice Block FORCES someone to play defensive for their turn because they know they can't do anymore damage to the Mage on that turn. The only thing that anyone can do to truly combat Ice Block is to use Hunter Flares, and god have mercy on your soul if you play Hunter in the current meta. I actually didn't agree entirely with the freeze nerfs because yeah, while freeze can potentially delay you, even that is possible to be played around (like silencing a frozen minion that can do lethal damage). Playing against a class that already has so many abilities to bypass Taunt leaves you with no other reliable option to avoid getting cheezed than to heal, and how many decent healing cards are really out there for those who play one of the six classes in the game that have no class-specific healing sources? It's simply unrealistic to think that someone is going to bog down their deck with neutral healing when there's so few neutral healing cards out there right now that are any good, just so they can have a better chance against ONE class.


First of all, there are 5 classes that have healing built into their class: Priest, Warrior, Paladin, Druid, Warlock. We can pitch Warlock because their healing usually just counteracts their hero power but not much more, but that leaves 4 classes with the ability to completely smash any Mage that attempts to rely on direct damage (but no board control to win).

Beyond that, there are 4 classes that are very effective at rushing: Warlock, Rogue, and Hunter.

That leaves Shaman as the only class that has no obvious and versatile counter to mage.

Nothing I've mentioned here relies on weak neutral healing at all; that's just a strawman argument. Players in the 5+ leagues have figured out how to make consistently strong decks that beat mage. They're not purely anti-mage decks, they're decks that are effective in general and win against mage more often or not.

So, you can either ignore the advice I'm giving that players are using to win against mages in the upper leagues, resulting in you coming back to this forum complaining every day while everyone else continues to beat mages, or you can recognize you don't know everything, listen to the advice, and win games. It's summarized here by the way http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10973087435
Edited by Sar on 12/28/2013 8:04 AM PST
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12/27/2013 12:19 PMPosted by Serefina
How is that any different than simply playing a 3-cost minion or destroying a 3-drop with something like a Shadow Bolt?


The thing is that the one who played the minions can't attack until it's a charge, the mage can attack with his copied minion on the same turn.


It's not any different; the enemy player still gets one turn to kill the mage's minion, even with Mirror Entity, before it gets used. Consider these two situations:

1) Mage plays a Knife Juggler (not Mirror Entity). You now have one turn to kill the KJ before the Mage attacks with it.

2) Mage plays Mirror Entity. He copies your KJ that you play on the next turn. You still have one turn to kill it.

The result is identical, case #2 simply feels different because the minion didn't appear until that turn. But in both cases you'd be equally behind; if you don't have a minion on the table to kill the KJ in case #2, then you wouldn't have one on the table in case #1 either to counter the one he played.

Like I said, secrets only FEEL as if they're giving some edge because you don't tend to associate the action of the secret with a card being played; rather, when the play the secret, it feels to you as if the Mage has simply skipped their turn, and then it feels when the secret activates as if they got the effect for free.
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12/28/2013 08:03 AMPosted by Sar


Your latter paragraph is woefully out of touch. Those points you make can all be played around: Sunwalker can be silenced. A minion with charge or a direct damage spell can be played if your minions get AOE'd or Assassinated. Ice Block FORCES someone to play defensive for their turn because they know they can't do anymore damage to the Mage on that turn. The only thing that anyone can do to truly combat Ice Block is to use Hunter Flares, and god have mercy on your soul if you play Hunter in the current meta. I actually didn't agree entirely with the freeze nerfs because yeah, while freeze can potentially delay you, even that is possible to be played around (like silencing a frozen minion that can do lethal damage). Playing against a class that already has so many abilities to bypass Taunt leaves you with no other reliable option to avoid getting cheezed than to heal, and how many decent healing cards are really out there for those who play one of the six classes in the game that have no class-specific healing sources? It's simply unrealistic to think that someone is going to bog down their deck with neutral healing when there's so few neutral healing cards out there right now that are any good, just so they can have a better chance against ONE class.


First of all, there are 5 classes that have healing built into their class: Priest, Warrior, Paladin, Druid, Warlock. We can pitch Warlock because their healing usually just counteracts their hero power but not much more, but that leaves 4 classes with the ability to completely smash any Mage that attempts to rely on direct damage (but no board control to win).

Beyond that, there are 4 classes that are very effective at rushing: Warlock, Rogue, and Hunter.

That leaves Shaman as the only class that has no obvious and versatile counter to mage.

Nothing I've mentioned here relies on weak neutral healing at all; that's just a strawman argument. Players in the 5+ leagues have figured out how to make consistently strong decks that beat mage. They're not purely anti-mage decks, they're decks that are effective in general and win against mage more often or not.

So, you can either ignore the advice I'm giving that players are using to win against mages in the upper leagues, resulting in you coming back to this forum complaining every day while everyone else continues to beat mages, or you can recognize you don't know everything, listen to the advice, and win games. It's summarized here by the way http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10973087435


Throughout your entire post you completely ignored the point I was trying to make- that Ice Block is the one failsafe card in the game that helps someone avoid lethal damage and has no counter to it other than playing defensive and hoping you're out of range to get combo'd down with direct damage spells (unless you play a Hunter and you have Flare). Using condescending language and just assuming someone's bad or ignoring your advice because they feel that a card is imbalanced doesn't make you sound any smarter.
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If I put a Sunwalker down when my opponent has fatal damage on the board, I've just avoided death for at least a turn.


Ha ha ha ha :D Really? Would have been such an awesome card if that was true... Ha ha ha, can't stop giggling how stupid this is...
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12/28/2013 06:55 AMPosted by Strifesong
I didn't say it was cheating, I said that's how it feels

Ok then, I'm not going to say you're a crybaby. That's just how it sounds, reading your posts.
when there's a class in the game that can delay a game for back to back turns.
Like say, any healing class?
You don't think I would have stopped and healed if I had any healing cards in my hand?
Translation: "WAAAAHHHHH!"
I'm not some amazing player, but I'm no 'scrub' as you so eloquently put it, either
The fact you're in here whining about the mage makes you a scrub.
(that was actually the only mage I lost to that day).
If true, this makes you even more of a crybaby. You lost once, to a mage, so you came here screaming and shouting about the game being unfair. Entitled much?
I don't see how anyone can deny that Mages are the simplest class to play simply because of the sheer level of versatility they have over every other class.
I'll make the same bet with you that I have with all the other crybabies claiming mages are easy to play, and OP. If you stream yourself getting a mage to rank 5 on the ladder in a week, I'll pay $200 into your Paypal account. If you can't then you uninstall the game, never play iy again and never post here again.

To date, not one of the other crybabies has taken me up on the offer despite it being "free money". I'm guessing you'll make excuses, or run away too - Heh! Bye bye.

(rest of your pathetic whining snipped...)
Edited by Scerion on 12/28/2013 12:02 PM PST
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First of all, there are 5 classes that have healing built into their class: Priest, Warrior, Paladin, Druid, Warlock. We can pitch Warlock because their healing usually just counteracts their hero power but not much more, but that leaves 4 classes with the ability to completely smash any Mage that attempts to rely on direct damage (but no board control to win).

Beyond that, there are 4 classes that are very effective at rushing: Warlock, Rogue, and Hunter.

That leaves Shaman as the only class that has no obvious and versatile counter to mage.

Nothing I've mentioned here relies on weak neutral healing at all; that's just a strawman argument. Players in the 5+ leagues have figured out how to make consistently strong decks that beat mage. They're not purely anti-mage decks, they're decks that are effective in general and win against mage more often or not.

So, you can either ignore the advice I'm giving that players are using to win against mages in the upper leagues, resulting in you coming back to this forum complaining every day while everyone else continues to beat mages, or you can recognize you don't know everything, listen to the advice, and win games. It's summarized here by the way http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10973087435


Throughout your entire post you completely ignored the point I was trying to make- that Ice Block is the one failsafe card in the game that helps someone avoid lethal damage and has no counter to it other than playing defensive and hoping you're out of range to get combo'd down with direct damage spells (unless you play a Hunter and you have Flare). Using condescending language and just assuming someone's bad or ignoring your advice because they feel that a card is imbalanced doesn't make you sound any smarter.


It's completely true that Ice Block is currently the only card that can absolutely prevent death for one turn (well, even that's not 100% true due to Flare, but that's true for 8 out of 9 classes). But "it's the only card that can..." isn't a good argument; there's a lot of cards that are the ONLY card that does that.

- For example, Aldor Peacekeeper is the ONLY minion that can reduce the attack of a minion to 1; does that automatically mean it's overpowered?
- Blood Imp is the ONLY card that can increase the health of all other minions while not being targetable by the opponent; does that automatically mean that it's overpowered?
- Warsong Commander is the ONLY card that can give charge to multiple other minions. Does that mean that it's overpowered?
- Eaglehorn Bow is the ONLY weapon that can increase its own durability.

Now, one thing you'll notice about all these cards is that they are very popular cards, so the fact that they give a unique effect seems to make them more popular (arguably because it's hard to substitute a different card for the same effect). But the fact that they have a unique effect doesn't mean that they're automatically overpowered.

The same can be said about Ice Block. It is the ONLY card that can act as a 100% guaranteed "I can't die this turn" card (excluding Flare). But it's not the only card that can make you survive for an extra turn, and that's something many people seem to be missing. If a Mage plays Ice Block, it means they're not playing some other card. And in a close game, one extra card on the board, or one other control spell, can completely flip control of the board in such a way that the mage never reaches fatal damage in the first place. For example, while it may seem trivial, something as simple as a turn 3 Harvest Golem or Shattered Sun Cleric can COMPLETELY flip the way the game ends up going; I'm not saying that as some pie in the sky "every damage counts" type of stuff, I mean that quite literally, a single extra minion in the early game very frequently as the effect of completely changing the course of the game.

So while Ice Block doesn't has no limitation as to the damage it can prevent, it also does nothing to change the board state. So running a different card instead of Ice Block very frequently can lead to the same result: in the case of Ice Block, you survive one extra turn and win the game, but in the case of the 3-drop minion, you never hit the situation where you're close to dying in the first place.

I have one main issue with Ice Block, and it actually spans to some other classes as well; that is, the synnergy with Molten Giant. The fact that you can play 2 Molten Giants for free while remaining safe I find to be completely broken; but in all fairness, there's a lot of classes that can exploit this as well. So this seems to be an issue with Molten Giant, not with Ice Block.
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12/28/2013 11:32 AMPosted by Scerion
I'll make the same bet with you that I have with all the other crybabies claiming mages are easy to play, and OP. If you stream yourself getting a mage to rank 5 on the ladder in a week, I'll pay $200 into your Paypal account. If you can't then you uninstall the game, never play iy again and never post here again.

To date, not one of the other crybabies has taken me up on the offer despite it being "free money". I'm guessing you'll make excuses, or run away too - Heh! Bye bye.

(rest of your pathetic whining snipped...)


I wasn't going to even bother going back to this forum after my last post because the vitriol over the slightest bit of criticism about classes is both hilarious and depressing, and your feces-flinging hatred is probably the worst of it. The funny thing about your post is that never once on here did I say mages are easy to play and OP. I said one particular card in the Mage library feels completely broken and just because you feel Mages are underpowered doesn't justify the fact that it's still the only class that can literally stall out a game with zero offensive counters. Keep whining about other peoples' 'whining' as if it makes you any better.

It's completely true that Ice Block is currently the only card that can absolutely prevent death for one turn (well, even that's not 100% true due to Flare, but that's true for 8 out of 9 classes). But "it's the only card that can..." isn't a good argument; there's a lot of cards that are the ONLY card that does that.

- For example, Aldor Peacekeeper is the ONLY minion that can reduce the attack of a minion to 1; does that automatically mean it's overpowered?
- Blood Imp is the ONLY card that can increase the health of all other minions while not being targetable by the opponent; does that automatically mean that it's overpowered?
- Warsong Commander is the ONLY card that can give charge to multiple other minions. Does that mean that it's overpowered?
- Eaglehorn Bow is the ONLY weapon that can increase its own durability.

Now, one thing you'll notice about all these cards is that they are very popular cards, so the fact that they give a unique effect seems to make them more popular (arguably because it's hard to substitute a different card for the same effect). But the fact that they have a unique effect doesn't mean that they're automatically overpowered.

The same can be said about Ice Block. It is the ONLY card that can act as a 100% guaranteed "I can't die this turn" card (excluding Flare). But it's not the only card that can make you survive for an extra turn, and that's something many people seem to be missing. If a Mage plays Ice Block, it means they're not playing some other card. And in a close game, one extra card on the board, or one other control spell, can completely flip control of the board in such a way that the mage never reaches fatal damage in the first place. For example, while it may seem trivial, something as simple as a turn 3 Harvest Golem or Shattered Sun Cleric can COMPLETELY flip the way the game ends up going; I'm not saying that as some pie in the sky "every damage counts" type of stuff, I mean that quite literally, a single extra minion in the early game very frequently as the effect of completely changing the course of the game.

So while Ice Block doesn't has no limitation as to the damage it can prevent, it also does nothing to change the board state. So running a different card instead of Ice Block very frequently can lead to the same result: in the case of Ice Block, you survive one extra turn and win the game, but in the case of the 3-drop minion, you never hit the situation where you're close to dying in the first place.

I have one main issue with Ice Block, and it actually spans to some other classes as well; that is, the synnergy with Molten Giant. The fact that you can play 2 Molten Giants for free while remaining safe I find to be completely broken; but in all fairness, there's a lot of classes that can exploit this as well. So this seems to be an issue with Molten Giant, not with Ice Block.


Now this sort of explanation I can get behind. Obviously Molten Giant is another card that's a huge problem, though my issue with Ice Block goes back to that Mages are the only class with that kind of hard delay and it's not just necessarily the fact that it's unique to them, but that it's that type of card that doesn't have a counter.

Weapons have their own counter cards in Harrison Jones and Oozes; if there were a minion with relatively similar stats to an Ooze but with a battlecry that removed an enemy secret (whether it be just one or all, if someone has multiple secrets in play), it wouldn't be nearly as tedious to play against because at least then there would be a way to combat Ice Block. As of now there's no real conceivable way to do that except for staying way above lethal range and riding it out, which feels like a contrast to what the game is going for (fast paced, < 8 minute duels).

And again, as far as 3 drop minions providing that same sort of relief- yeah, that's obviously a possibility, but that also isn't something that completely halts the flow of a game like Ice Block does (and to be honest, Ice Block isn't as nearly as fun to play off of as opposed to actively trying to gain advantage of the board). I forget if you said it in this thread or another one but you mention that another 'tactic' is to whittle the mage's health down as much as possible before triggering the Ice Block, to make it easier to score a killing blow later. If Blizzard didn't plan on including a neutral card that could remove secrets, I feel like it'd be fair to only allow Ice Block to trigger if an attack exceeds X amount of damage. If it did something like that, I think it'd be much more reasonable.

I really do appreciate you going in-depth on your thoughts about Ice Block, though, Sar.
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