Mages have too much direct damage

Posts: 89
Even thogh i mostly play paladin and priest in constructed I feel like Mages get too much direct damage.

Pyroblast alone can mean once you drop below 20 live the game is over turn 9, 8 if he saves his coin.
Getting there isn't too hard. Manawyrm and sorceres aprentice come out early, hit hard and are usally covered by mirror immage/acrance missles/frostbolt. If that shouldn't get the opponent low enogh there still is fireball. Then there is blizzard, Cone of cold and ice block to make sure the mages makes is to turn 8/9.
on top of that the hero power allows for 1 guranteed damage every turn because it bypasses taunt.

The usauall advice on how to deal with mages you can read on here goes like: don't take too much damage early, be aggressive and play around flamestrike.

While playing like this does certainly help and mages aren't unbeatable I feel like it is still too much direct damage they are packing.

I will give a match I had yesterday where I was playing priest as an example.

The tl;dr of the match is: I kept boardcontrol throughout the match, not a single one of his minions managed to attack me even once. starting turn 5 I healed myself every single turn, I won the match on turn 10 with 1 live left because his arcane missiles only hit my minions.

The match started like this:
He starts with a Manawyrm, I coin into shadow word pain,
he plays a leper gnome, i holy smite it,
he pings me, i play amani berserker and buff it with power word shield,
he plays another leper gnome and pings me, I attack the gnome and heal amani
he plays novice engineer + pings me, I clear novice with amani, play harvest golem and heal myself

From there on out i don't remember the match exactly. He kept pinging me almost every turn, put a sorcceres apprentice, another novice and a mirror immige on the field which i cleared out the next turn, threw 1 fireball and 1 pyroblast in my face and stayed alive by using blizzard, cone of cold and iceblock. I put down a Twilight drake, cabal shadow priest and temple enforcer, kept them alive with a Circle of healing and healed myself every turn.

After putting him on 2 live and procing his ice barrier on my 9th turn i had 12 live left.
He played fireball, 2 Ice lance's and pinged me which put me at 1. The acrance missles he used after that luckily only hit my minions so I won.

If he had slightly more luck or a diffent card like frostbolt I would have lost that match. despite not taking damage from minions even once and healing myself for 10 health by turn 9. To damage that cannot be prevented by any class other then mages themselfs.

I think it would be more then fair if the damage fireball and pyroblast does to the hero would be lowered somewhat.
Edited by Philipz on 1/1/2014 3:03 PM PST
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MVP - Hearthstone
Posts: 11,580
The Ice Lance combos can be rough to deal with. Most mages don't use them because they're dead cards in your hand and remove the ability to use Frostbolt as an early-game control card. Still, the Ice Lance combo drastically increases the amount of damage the mage is going to do to you if they're running it. Normally the counter to this is pressure. As with all combo decks, the faster the game ends, the less likely they are to draw into their combos. Even if they're freezing you, freeze cards are expensive, which means if they're freezing you they're not cycling; if you put early pressure on them (not even necessarily rushing, just pressure), and keep going at it over and over, they waste all their mana freezing, can't cycle enough to draw into their combos, and then lose when they run out of freezes.

Unfortunately, this is an inherent weakness of a Priest as Priest isn't designed to be exceptionally aggressive, so it just leads to a bad matchup for you. Especially since Priest is actually a relatively weak class in terms of hero healing. That's just an inherent weakness of the matchup. Still, the one thing you have going for you is that with things like PWS and Temple Enforcer, you can buff minion health up high enough that the mage can only stall but not kill the minions, which means that once you get rolling your damage starts getting pretty high.

Keep in mind too you shouldn't judge based off of ONE matchup. The game is random, and to get a good feel of balance really does take a good dozen games or so.

Also, I'll mention if you were playing a Paladin you'd just laugh at him; Paladins have 36 healing to their hero even without Holy Light, so even with the Ice Lance combo they'd come nowhere near killing you. Like I said, just a matchup type of thing.
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Posts: 41
You have just said that mage is not OP, "direct damage" is just a characteristic of mages..
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Posts: 509
01/01/2014 01:54 PMPosted by Philipz
Even thogh i mostly play paladin and priest


TL;DR OP plays 2 healing classes, and doesn't know how to heal.

Maybe try a different class OP, you seem to be a bit confused...
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Posts: 89


in my paladin deck i only run Sword of justice and Guardien of Kings for healing. Guess with more healing playing agaisnt mages would be much easier.

I just find it strange that you either have to load your deck with buttloads of heal or race the mage, killing him before he can even cast his big spells. doesn't seem like good design to me.

01/01/2014 02:06 PMPosted by Dordall
You have just said that mage is not OP, "direct damage" is just a characteristic of mages..


Well, if you have so much that you can almost entirely ignore any interaction with your opponent other then blasting his face of it seems like a bad characteristic. I am not saying remove it, just lower it they can't purely rely playing a few certain cards to win.

01/01/2014 02:07 PMPosted by Scerion
Even thogh i mostly play paladin and priest


TL;DR OP plays 2 healing classes, and doesn't know how to heal.

Maybe try a different class OP, you seem to be a bit confused...


I included a tl;dr and even made it bold so i'd be easier to find for ... people like you.
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Posts: 236
It's not exactly a few cards!
That mage you fought was clearly playing a burn deck with the leaper gnomes and all.
Since he spent the whole of early-mid game pinging you, He was actually saving up cards/hoping to draw all the cards he needs to set up a full burn combo.
Considering the amount of set up/risk involved (Risk of not drawing the cards you need since you can only have 2 of each card) I do think that this is a valid strategy!

I know that it's weird to mention this in a hearthstones forum but. Perhaps, you should take a look at how Magic is played and the different deck archetypes there. Maybe this will make you open to the various deck strategies out there!

I've even played against and lost to a rouge mill deck before. It was pretty interesting though. I had no idea what was going on and used my own draw cards... until it was too late.
Edited by mxksowie on 1/1/2014 4:18 PM PST
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Posts: 1,633
01/01/2014 04:18 PMPosted by mxksowie
Since he spent the whole of early-mid game pinging you, He was actually saving up cards/hoping to draw all the cards he needs to set up a full burn combo.
Considering the amount of set up/risk involved (Risk of not drawing the cards you need since you can only have 2 of each card) I do think that this is a valid strategy!


Mages use Barrier, Block, Mirror, Freeze all to STALL the opponent. its not just letting the opponent hit you while you save up your burn combo. Its efficiently stalling until you win.

Mages are STILL too good at stalling and then just WIN with there MASSIVE amounts of Direct dmg.
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Posts: 89
I have been playing magic for over 10 years now. The 3 commen archetypes are aggro, combo and controll. Burn is certainly a thing in magic but you rarely find playable spells that deal 4 or more damage to the player and I have never seen one that does 7 (equivalent to 10 in hearthstone) so there aren't efficent decks that purely rely on burn in magic.

And It's certainly no combo when you throw fireballs and pyroblasts in the opponent's face, the spells have no requirement on one another whatsoever and can even be used as minion removal.

There are more ways to interact with spells in magic then there are in hearthstone.
The only option to counter a spell or change it's target are both exclusive to mages. There also isn't any discard in hearthstone so even if you know the other guy is holding a big spell you can't get rid of it.

So overall burn is a lot less effective and has a lot more counterplay in magic then in hearthstone.

Because there is basicly no counterplay to direct damage I think winning throgh nothing but direct damage as easily as you can right now is too strong.
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Posts: 509
01/01/2014 03:31 PMPosted by Philipz
I included a tl;dr and even made it bold so i'd be easier to find for ... people like you.


Heh, but your TL;DR was longer than the main part of your article!
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Posts: 208
priest cries about mage while previous season he was fotm LOL
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Posts: 60
01/01/2014 05:44 PMPosted by Philipz
I have been playing magic for over 10 years now. The 3 commen archetypes are aggro, combo and controll. Burn is certainly a thing in magic but you rarely find playable spells that deal 4 or more damage to the player and I have never seen one that does 7 (equivalent to 10 in hearthstone) so there aren't efficent decks that purely rely on burn in magic.


You're wrong. In MTG it's exactly the same. There is even an equivalent of Pyroblast, which is Urza's Wrath. The reason why burn decks are not popular in Magic is that you need to keep controlled enemy combos, otherwise your opponent kills you before turn 5.
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