Why is there direct damage spells?

I don't understand this, why do mages in particular have almost all direct damage spells when this game allows no spells to be played on the opponents turn and only allows mages themselves to play a counter?

Will this be changed at any point, if not, why wont it be?

Also, if this wont be changed, can taunt at least be changed to block direct damage?

This seems like a mechanic that will kill this game, I know it's in Beta and this is my feedback. I don't want to hear any "Mages are perfect and there's nothing wrong, you're just crying".

Saying ANYTHING is perfect in a Beta is just absurd.
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
First of all, mages are fine; the statistics I've seem seem to indicate that no class at the moment is overpowered, and mages are middle of the pack in terms of win percentage, which indicates that while their direct damage may be strong, the class as a whole is balanced (one could argue direct damage is a niche of theirs).

Second, mages don't actually have "all" direct damage spells; they have three direct damage spells (Fireball, Frostbolt, and Pyroblast). You could also count Ice Lance but that's highly situational as a direct damage spell, particularly against the enemy hero; while there are lots of ways to freeze minions, there aren't many ways to freeze the enemy hero to seed an Ice Lance. But anyway, that's far from all their spells being direct damage.

Anyway, third, you're incorrect that direct damage doesn't have a counter. Healing functions as a counter to direct damage. Healing spells by default heal for twice as much as direct damage spells do in damage (for the same mana cost that is). Pyroblast and Firebal are slightly better than curve, but healing is still substantially stronger than either. Anyway, I know you're saying that you want to literally cancel a spell cast, but what is the difference between canceling a Fireball versus taking the damage then healing it up (or if your health is low, healing in advance). The result is completely identical. The problem is you have a misconception of what "countering" means because games like MTG make countering so brain-dead easy.
Reply Quote
12/28/2013 09:49 PMPosted by NorseEmperor
I don't understand this, why do mages in particular have almost all direct damage spells when this game allows no spells to be played on the opponents turn and only allows mages themselves to play a counter?

Will this be changed at any point, if not, why wont it be?

Also, if this wont be changed, can taunt at least be changed to block direct damage?

This seems like a mechanic that will kill this game, I know it's in Beta and this is my feedback. I don't want to hear any "Mages are perfect and there's nothing wrong, you're just crying".

Saying ANYTHING is perfect in a Beta is just absurd.


Mages are fine and there's nothing wrong, you're just crying.

I don't care if you want to hear it or not - it's the truth. You've been beaten, and now you're sobbing in here. Go away and learn how to play instead of whining about being beat.
Reply Quote
12/28/2013 09:49 PMPosted by NorseEmperor
Will this be changed at any point, if not, why wont it be?


no

because mages are SPELLCASTERS that is how they work, changing this is like saying to warriors, "oh by the way guys, we are removing all weapons and replacing them with toy swords that don't do any damage but have sparkles and rainbow effects when used".

this is one of the major factors that will decide whether hearthstone will fly or flop, because a good majority of players don't know, or care to know about the lore of warcraft, and therefore are clueless, like you are exhibiting, about how classes work and why things are as they are.
Reply Quote
12/29/2013 02:49 AMPosted by Rogoth01
Will this be changed at any point, if not, why wont it be?

no
because mages are SPELLCASTERS that is how they work

Does it mean that spellcasters cannot be tanked?
If so I would like know then - why melees can be tanked? It is much more sense for any melee card to avoid taunts and hit whenever they wants.
You know if the door is closed, but window is opened - you don't have to be a mage to go in.
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
12/29/2013 07:30 AMPosted by Qox

no
because mages are SPELLCASTERS that is how they work

Does it mean that spellcasters cannot be tanked?
If so I would like know then - why melees can be tanked? It is much more sense for any melee card to avoid taunts and hit whenever they wants.
You know if the door is closed, but window is opened - you don't have to be a mage to go in.


This is one of the perks of spells. Spells are inherently weaker than minions. While a spell it used once and does not require any response from the opposing player, minions attack multiple times and require the enemy to respond. Mind that doesn't mean spells are always bad; that's why you get mixtures of the 2 cards in decks.

Take a simple comparison however; a Giant versus Pyroblast. Let's assume for the time being that both cards cost 8; Giants tend to have variable cost, and admittedly their strongest aspect is the fact that they can be played really cheap under the right circumstances, but for the comparison, just assume each card costs 8. If you Pyroblast the enemy hero directly, they take 10 damage one time. They can't block it, though they can heal the damage. In the case of a Giant, the enemy gets one turn to respond to it before it starts doing damage. However, from that point on, the Giant will do 8 damage EVERY turn until he's killed.

In the case of the Pyroblast, the effect is immediate, but does not require any response from the opponent to prevent it from happening again; in essence, the casting of Pyroblast automatically costs a card (if it's used on the enemy hero that is). In the case of the Giant, the enemy has more ability to respond to it, but the damage will occur over and over until the Giant is stopped.

Anyway, to answer your question, that's why minions can be tanked and why spells cannot. In a nut shell, spell damage to the enemy hero inherently requires loss of card advantage; minion damage does not.
Reply Quote
Except spells grant an advantage NOW while a giant MAYBE next turn, if it still lives. This is why spells should deal less damage because playing a minion is a risk that MAY pay off while a spell INSTANTLY pays off.

So please, let us be without your mage preaching, you and hamster Scerion that poison this mage forum with your mage bias.
Edited by CeaRshaf on 12/29/2013 8:47 AM PST
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
12/29/2013 08:46 AMPosted by CeaRshaf
Except spells grant an advantage NOW while a giant MAYBE next turn, if it still lives. This is why spells should deal less damage because playing a minion is a risk that MAY pay off while a spell INSTANTLY pays off.

Just for the record, I did say that


So please, let us be without your mage preaching, you and hamster Scerion that poison this mage forum with your mage bias.


I don't have a mage bias, I have an anti-whining bias. Every class forum except maybe hunter is filled with people whining about class X is OP or class Y is OP, and it gets rather annoying. Every class have a sufficient amount of counter-play, and frankly, the win-rates seem relatively balanced. Even the best classes at the moment seem to be getting approximately a 55% win-rate according to the stats I've seen. Even if that was the end-all be-all, that would be relatively balanced, but I suspect that will fluctuate as the meta changes.

Either way, the classes overall seem pretty balanced right now (short of hunter seeming somewhat underpowered, though I'll wait and see what decks the community comes up with since the nerfs before coming to a conclusion on that), so it gets irritating looking in every forum and seeing constant whining about how every class is overpowered. The statistics show they're not, so instead of complaining about them being overpowered, how about learning how to actually play against them.
Reply Quote
Why do you think this is whining? Giving feedback and my opinions on the game is whining?

I said mages in particular, my subject is about direct damage but it has emphasis on mages since they are completely centered around it.

You seem to have the bias, especially since in a CLOSED BETA you assume a class is absolutely perfect without flaws.

so it gets irritating looking in every forum and seeing constant whining about how every class is overpowered


So, in a Closed Beta, you are upset people are making threads about how things seem broken? Should everyone post about how amazing and perfect the game, unlike any other game, has found utter zen in closed beta that requires no work at all?

You sound like either a Mage/Blizzard fan boy that refuses to look at problems and just want to ride the long rod thinking everything is dandy.

Direct damage should have a universal set of counter spells or a way to use a taunt. This is my opinion and what a lot of people seem to enjoy, people don't complain about Mages/Priests a lot because they just think "!@#$ it this seems like a cool thing to do". They complain because there is obviously something wrong.
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
12/29/2013 11:28 AMPosted by NorseEmperor

So, in a Closed Beta, you are upset people are making threads about how things seem broken?


Yes, because they're wrong. There is a such thing as overpowered/underpowered, but a lot of people complaining about something doesn't make it true. Verifiable statistics make it so, and as it stands now, the massive complaints about mages being overpowered are actually disputed by facts (the most recent statistics shows them at roughly a 48% win rate).

So what do you call it when people come to the forum to say something is overpowered, get shown statistics that show class X isn't winning too often (this is actually true for all classes right now, no class is dominating), get told how top tier players are countering class X, then the same people continue saying the class is overpowered and unbeatable? The best word is whining.
Reply Quote
12/28/2013 10:18 PMPosted by Sar
First of all, mages are fine


Don't need to read past there. Mages are overpowered, pretending otherwise doesn't make it not true. Removal + Aggro decks are king/queen in constructed and Arena. (Mages and Warlocks are in too good a place right now.)

Care to link to your statistics? I've looked around but couldn't find any official statistics regarding win/loss ratios. These stats also probably include all the new Heathstone players, skewing the data. If you've played top end constructed, you'll know it's nearly all Warlocks and Mages, with some Paladins. There may be other hero types in there, but they're very few and far between.
Edited by Akimbo on 12/29/2013 12:02 PM PST
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
12/29/2013 12:00 PMPosted by Akimbo
First of all, mages are fine


Don't need to read past there. Mages are overpowered, pretending otherwise doesn't make it not true. Removal + Aggro decks are king/queen in constructed and Arena. (Mages and Warlocks are in too good a place right now.)

Care to link to your statistics? I've looked around but couldn't find any official statistics regarding win/loss ratios. These stats also probably include all the new Heathstone players, skewing the data. If you've played top end constructed, you'll know it's nearly all Warlocks and Mages, with some Paladins. There may be other hero types in there, but they're very few and far between.


http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11041384299

I'm at rank 3 currently, the most commonly encountered classes for me are Druid and Warlock. Mages still make a showing, but they're more middle of the pack (note that it wasn't like this when the patch first hit; at the time, like 70% of the games were against Mages).

New players don't skew the statistics unless you have reason to believe that the new players will affect the win rates of mage differently than other classes (which would in part require many more new players playing mage than the other classes). Given the volume of each class being played (another statistic you can find on here), there's no reason to believe that.
Reply Quote
That's a small sample size for the number of players in Hearthstone. There's also no showing where these results were drawn from. (User submitted data is unreliable as you could have 10000 rank 25-10 players submitting win/loss ratios.)

Honestly don't know why I wasted my time coming here to complain. Nothing's going to change because of it.

Thanks for the info anyway.
Reply Quote
MVP - Hearthstone
12/29/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Akimbo
That's a small sample size for the number of players in Hearthstone. There's also no showing where these results were drawn from. (User submitted data is unreliable as you could have 10000 rank 25-10 players submitting win/loss ratios.)

Honestly don't know why I wasted my time coming here to complain. Nothing's going to change because of it.

Thanks for the info anyway.


There's a bunch of people that utilize software to track their wins and losses. They often do it because they can use it to track statistics in their win rates that can help them to optimize their deck and play (it can even tell them what time of day they personally do better at). The stats you see here are the meta-data taken from tons of people. You can think of it a lot like wowhead.

Also, by the way, you're talking roughly 40k samples in the most recent set of data, which is actually A LOT for a statistic that's close to 50% (i.e. the win rate). To put it in context, most presidential election polls use a few hundred samples and are usually correct within a couple percent; we're talking about data here that has two more orders of magnitude in terms of its sample size.
Reply Quote
Pretty sure Sar is just a blizzard fan boy that is only here to ride there !@#$ saying that everything is perfect in a Beta. Don't even bother arguing with him, he's one of those people you avoid in game and real life.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]