Shadow Word 4 attack exemption?

Posts: 325
Is exempting 4 attack minions from Shadow Word spells so necessary? Is there some balancing reason I don't know about? The way I see it, it is so unhealthy for the metagame to force people to choose 4 attack minions just for 1 class.

How about making Shadow Word Death include 4 attack minions and above, and increase its cost to 4? That way a sweet spot will be created in turn 3 of the game instead of for specific minions. I've noticed most Priest decks don't include 2 SW:Ds and 2 MCs -- most have 2 or 3 in some combination. This means there is some room to increase their demand.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,597
Other classes do not receive 4 options for hard removal cards, and in general the options they do receive, while not limited, are also more expensive. Exceptions happen when their options are instead really bad, like Corruption and Naturalize. Hex is as cheap as Shadow Word: Death, but also leaves a taunt minion on the board that you have to take care of.

The 4 attack blind spot used to be covered by Mind Control, but at 10 mana that's very far from reliable at any point in the game when 4 attack minions are relevant. The current best option is to just rely on your own minions to trade with your opponent's 4 attack minions. It's less than ideal, but barring a complete re-imagining of the Priest class, it's what you have to do.
Reply Quote
Posts: 329
Understand what you are talking about here... a change like that would allow priests to remove all creatures with shadow death or word regardless of that creature's HP... just sit on that for a moment.
Reply Quote
Posts: 301
So basically you want to give more power to shadow words pain/death ? There is a reason number 4 is the number priests hate.

DEAL with IT!
Edited by Njambris on 1/1/2014 4:32 PM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 106
01/01/2014 03:19 PMPosted by Echo
Understand what you are talking about here... a change like that would allow priests to remove all creatures with shadow death or word regardless of that creature's HP... just sit on that for a moment.


Well duh the creatures hp don't matter. After all it's attack allready does...

Other classes get actually good damaging spells/weapons alongside their hard removal so it's not like priests have more.

there are some options to deal with creatures with 4 attack. Holy fire deals with most stuff that has 4 attack since they usally are 4/4 or 4/5. It's a fireball for 2 more mana and 1 damage less but at least it heals, well, your hero.
And against stuff like Ysera you need mindcontroll.

to cover all your bases you need to run 4 different cards instead of 1 and hope you have the right one in your hand, but when you do it's usally efficent.
Reply Quote
Posts: 325
I think improving the meta by not exempting 4 attack cards is more important than the number of removal cards Priests have access to. After removing that exemption, we can talk about ways to compensate if the Priest becomes overpowered, but I already suggested the 1 mana increase.
Reply Quote
Posts: 46
I usually just end up buffing an enemy's minion with Dark Iron Dwarf if I want to be able to use Big Game Hunter/SW:D on them.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,111
Shadow word pain and death are very undercosted and straight kill spells (bye bye divine shield)

Their weakness is the priests primary kill spell is split into 2 spells with a 4 attack blind spot.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,264
The 4 attack ability is needed, Priest´s are way too strong already. If you let those 4 attack minions die as well, then how will someone ever be able to get a minion on the board which isn't instantly killed?
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,612
Actually I think it's fine, Priests have problems with minions with exactly 4 attack, since you can't shadow word death or shadow word pain, and it's a waste to mind control them.
Reply Quote
Posts: 742
In the current situation, priests have to design their deck around their blind spot, or at least find some ways to compensate for it.

You also won't run into too many priests in the upper leagues so in a way, once you've moved past the lower ranks, you can then modify your deck as you won't have to worry too much about priests anymore.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,466
I don't have any minions over 4 damage in my mage deck. But sometimes they use shadow word death on my mana wyrms :_(

/SadPanda when that happens.
Reply Quote
Posts: 3,940
01/03/2014 09:57 AMPosted by Mercy
undercosted
Nope.
Vanilla destroy costs 5 mana.
-2 mana for condition is just right.
It may look undercosted when used on something like Rag, but the fact that half decent mid-game minions are immune to SW:D makes it completely justified.
Reply Quote
Posts: 526
01/02/2014 10:03 AMPosted by Huscarlton
I usually just end up buffing an enemy's minion with Dark Iron Dwarf if I want to be able to use Big Game Hunter/SW:D on them.


This^

Or Alchemist
Reply Quote
Posts: 920
well technically Mage has 2... Vaporize and polymorph.
Reply Quote
Posts: 109
I feel like 4 atk and above is actually fair, considering rush decks and 4 atk creatures being strong, added to the fact that if you waste a death on a 4 drop, you can't kill rag as easily. Death would be super easy to bait, and it really wouldn't change anything except for being able to counter a couple of the stronger minions a little better.

I would argue that 3 mana is a sweet spot, but hex is a 0/1 transformation for 3, which is insane and that vanilla destroy should be a little cheaper, because shadow word death is not at all strong as it only affects a certain amount of creatures as opposed to hex or assassinate. And it is still a 1to1 trade, regardless.

Just my opinion.
Reply Quote
Posts: 284
01/01/2014 03:17 PMPosted by Moncrief
Other classes do not receive 4 options for hard removal cards, and in general the options they do receive, while not limited, are also more expensive. Exceptions happen when their options are instead really bad, like Corruption and Naturalize. Hex is as cheap as Shadow Word: Death, but also leaves a taunt minion on the board that you have to take care of.

The 4 attack blind spot used to be covered by Mind Control, but at 10 mana that's very far from reliable at any point in the game when 4 attack minions are relevant. The current best option is to just rely on your own minions to trade with your opponent's 4 attack minions. It's less than ideal, but barring a complete re-imagining of the Priest class, it's what you have to do.


This is not really correct because other classes can combine their damage options. Getting 4 hard removal spells sound good but at the same time since those are conditional 2 are always dead draws. If you think about it there's 3 categories of creatures for Priest (3>, >3, 4), so 70% of the time when a minion is summoned the card you have is unplayable and becomes a dead card. I'd rather have SW: Pain and Hex rather than Death, the 0/1 taunt is better than not being able to target 4 attack creatures, which happen to be some of the best creatures in the game (Yetis, Spellbreakers, Azure drake, Sunwalker etc).
Reply Quote
Posts: 16
In my opinion the 4 attack word exception is the sole reason you won't find many priests in the higher ranks compared to other classes. Priest are considered overpowered in the lower ranks but underpowered in the higher ranks.

One of my 3 main decks is a decent priest deck but I constantly lose to certain types of decks, namely classic Druid decks, Rogue decks and very fast murlock decks (last one depending on my draws). The reason is because these decks simply spam creatures with 4 at.

Priest class does not have aoe spells above 2 damage like mage has flamestrike, does not have damage spells which do more that 2 damage to a minion (with the exception of holy fire which is at 6 mana) and does not have damage spells which do damage to more than one creature (such as explosive trap, multi shot or forked lightning). Furthermore priests do not have weapons or cards which give them mana or help them put more than one creature with a card (unleash the hounds, force of nature, feral spirit etc). More than that, priests do not have draw card spells and have to rely solely on creature abilities. As one can conclude from this, Priests have an obvious disadvantage when it comes to gaining board control in early - mid game since they can not deal easily with accelerated decks spamming 2-5 mana creatures with health 3+. To compensate for this, he has shadow word pain. So we are talking about a single spell, which is 1/15 chances you get it and which targets only one creature, to deal with the most important/decisive part of the game. Even more troublesome is the fact that most of the best minions played by most decks are 4 at. creatures (yeti, ysera, cairne, houndmaster, ogre magi, twilight drake, azure drake, auctioneer, darkscale healer, silver hand night, dark iron dwarf, sunwalker, malygos, the black night etc.). In addition to these, people buff their creatures to reach 4 at. knowing that it cannot be removed.

Therefore, when a druid is capable of playing a yeti in turn 1 (innervate, + coin) it is pretty much game over for a priest. Not to mention that druids shoot down every single minion priests put and have draw cards options which priests do not have. Same with goes with priests against rogues. Priests are not fast enough to end the game by turn 8 which, at which point an auctioneer drops with conceal and priest have no way to remove it (except a certain combo which does not always work) and thus next turn it’s pretty much game over. Again when it comes to murlock decks, a proper murloc deck is so fast that in turn 4 - 5 it has plenty of creatures with attack and health 3-4. Again, a priest can only rely on holy smite which deals 2 dame and holy nova which again deals 2 damage. As a result he can’t kill creatures with 3-4 health. Again only solution is shadow word: pain, which will have 2 at the first 8-10 cards if he is very lucky. But warlock, with his hero ability draws cards as fast, thus pain is not very effective and Priest does not have other options in this case other than the ironbeak owl which will not help in board as a minion.

Coming to late game, shadow word death is indeed a great low cost card. The problem is, if the priest does not have board control by then, the other hero does not have a reason to drop a fatty and if he does have board control until then, that card is just dead weight. Furthermore, then are very few playable creatures which shadow word death removes (rangaros, mountain giant, sylvanas, sea giant). But again, until these cards drop, there is no use for shadow word death which remains dead weight for the duration of the match.

I personally believe that the 4 at. exception has such a heavy impact of on priest, that it renders him underpowered in higher ranks. Shadow words cannot be compared in any case with hex and polymorph. The last two may leave a 0/1 taunt and a 1//1 minion but both mage and shaman can remove the minions with their abilities alone even in the worst case they do not have other creatures in board.

In any case the only solutions I have seen so far as based on either buffing the enemy’s creatures (dark iron dwarf etc) and then killing them, which is too late as it requires at least 7 mana, or switching their attack/health (crazy alchemist) and then killing them or switching to shadowform. In any case a combo is required which means that one has to sacrifice 2-4 spots in his deck just to defend against the most common type of creatures. And more spots need to be dedicated for creatures which draw cards. That is a huge disadvantage in relation to other decks.

Anyway other than the fact that priest needs further balancing in relation to other classes in this matter I have no further comments or suggestions. Just wanted to share my thoughts.
Reply Quote
Posts: 102
I think including 4 attack would be fine, because if you waste your SWD on a 4 attack mob you won't have it vs. late game legendaries.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]