Mage OP?

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Posts: 32
Why did a post that was talking about mages BEFORE all the nerfs get bumped? This is no longer relevant.


Just because they were "nerfed" at some point or even recently, doesn't mean they don't still require more tweaking, you should know this if you've been playing competitive online games often enough. It usually takes more than one patch to get an OP champion balanced correctly. Not to mention this is still a beta, we're doing what beta players are supposed to do which is talking about the issues we find in a new game. If you don't like the thread, don't open it.
Edited by Hellmage on 1/30/2014 7:02 PM PST
Posts: 135
First off im not trolling.... i honed in on iceblock because you whined about how the mage survived with no creatures on the board for two turns on 6 life. That should only be possible with iceblock.

You asked me to go through every paragraph... ok then

01/30/2014 12:33 PMPosted by Hellmage
You people can't possibly argue that the ability to kill someone almost instantly isn't overpowered.


Late game alot of classes are capable of this, hunters are in fact much better at otk then mages who by your own words required at least 2.

01/30/2014 12:33 PMPosted by Hellmage
So a Mage can deal 12 unblocklable damage to their opponent in ONE TURN by their 8th mana crystal with two Fireblast spells. Not even my highest damage Hunter card which is an 8/8 minion with Charge ability and costs 1600 mana to buy and 9 mana summon can do the amount of damage that a Mage in one turn.


Hunters can do 10 damage with there 6th mana crystal with kill command, priests can do 10 damage on there fourth crystal with mind blast...

01/30/2014 04:32 PMPosted by Hellmage
they have guaranteed HIGH levels of damage against other champions with essentially no counter for it


Healing is a direct hard counter, healing spells tend to be alot more mana efficient then raw damage spells, sure not every class has them but in this case it works both ways, mages have no heals either and hunters can do insane burst with oth combos

01/30/2014 04:32 PMPosted by Hellmage
legitimate argument that disproves why 22 points of UNBLOCKABLE cast damage is overpowered.


Well lets start for the fact that the mage is basically doing nothing to the board for two turns other then lobbing damage at your face, for a start they would have to have those cards in hand which isn't going to be very often and im pretty sure if any class can pull of 22 points of damage lockers or no blockers late game if they have cards in hand over two turns if there opponent is not altering the field..

But ill end with this. If it was overpowered mages would be represented at high levels of play..... Since the nerfs mages have vanished and are rarely seen in ranked play after you get past about rank 14. That really should settle it.
Posts: 32
01/31/2014 01:20 AMPosted by Kainaq
Hunters can do 10 damage with there 6th mana crystal with kill command, priests can do 10 damage on there fourth crystal with mind blast...


Wow, that statement is all the proof I need to confirm that you don't know what you're talking about. In order for a Hunter to do 10 damage in one turn; they not only need to use TWO Kill Command spells but they MUST have a beast summoned and alive. In other words, they can be prevented from even doing that damage because those early-game Beasts are killed off frequently and easily. The fact that you're completely ignoring this obstacle for the Hunter makes you unworthy for conversation.

How about you actually go learn how the abilities are played before commenting on them and having these ridiculous oversights in your comparisons? The Kill Command is in no way equal to Fireball or Pyroblast. Allow me to reiterate, the maximum damage a single Kill Command can do is FIVE damage and that requires a Beast! If you only have a total of 6 mana crystals, then chances are your weak and low-health beast is already dead by the time you even get a chance to even cast Kill Command on the opposing player for full effect. It's not even worth using it on players because you need those spells for killing enemy minions. Meanwhile the Mage has enough damage and AOE utility to both nuke their opponent and still kill or freeze their opponent's minions during one turn by mid-game.

Not to mention the obvious fact that the Mage is dealing 6 damage with absolutely no prerequisites other than 4 mana crystals while the Hunter is only doing 5 maximum if he's lucky enough to have a Beast summoned at the time, which in most cases does not happen during the match because they those spells get spent trying to survive early in a match, especially against a Mage or Priest.

01/31/2014 01:20 AMPosted by Kainaq
Healing is a direct hard counter, healing spells tend to be alot more mana efficient then raw damage spells, sure not every class has them but in this case it works both ways, mages have no heals either and hunters can do insane burst with oth combos


Mages have no heal? Again you're conveniently ignoring the Ice Barrier, which most Mages have in their deck. Are you trying to make the poor arguement that +8 armor isn't as good as a heal? Once again you're ignoring the fact that it's the Hunters and Rogues that have no way to recover from damage. But since you don't seem to know much about this stuff, I will break it down for you:

Druid:
1. Healing Touch restores 8 health
2. Ancient of Lore restores 5 health.
3. Claw adds 2 armor.
4. Bite adds 4 armor.
5. Hero ability adds 1 armor

Paladin:
1. Lay on Hands restores 8 health
2.Touch of Light restores 6 health.
3. Truesilver Champion restores 2 health per attack for 2 attacks.

Priest:
1. Holy Fire restores 5 health and deal 5 damage
2. Hero ability heals any target for 2 health

Warlock:
1. Siphon Soul restores 3 health and destroys a minion
2. Sacrificial Pact restores 5 health and destroys a demon
3. Drain Life restores 2 health and deals 2 damage

Mage:
1. Ice Barrior adds 8 armor when attacked

Warrior:
1. Gain 5 armor and draw a card
2. Hero ability adds 2 armor

The only two classes that have absolutely ZERO health or armor boosts are the Rogue and Hunter. And your ridiculous comment about Hunter's having "insane burst" damage is beyond unrealistic because most of their spell damage can only be used on minions in the first place, not the opposing champion. Do you even know what burst damage is? Because that's what the Mage has against the other classes, especially against the Hunter since they have NO health restore ability or armor boost and have NO way to block or counter the overpowered damage of Mage spells.

You haven't made a single valid point on here. Half of what you're saying doesn't even make sense. Mages aren't sitting and waiting with the board completely idle before they deal their crazy burst damage. They are rolling out minions and attacking like anyone else does. The difference is that they can deal triple the damage directly to your opposing champion during the mid-to-final phase of the match regardless of what you do. The Hunter in particular has no way to recover from 2 Fireballs and a Pyroblast once the damage has been done. Don't even get me started on the Freeze spells. Like I said, even when I'm playing everything perfectly, nothing can change the fact that the Mage can nuke at any given moment wants my health is in the 12 range. I didn't even mention their added advantage of being able to freeze their opponent AND their minions AND do a ton of damage all at the same time.

The bottomline line is that Mage abilities like Arcane Missle, Frostbolt, Ice Lance, Frost Nova, Fireblast, Pyroblast, and Blizzard need a higher mana cost instead of players being able to spam these game-changing abilities without any skill at all.
Posts: 401
01/31/2014 09:01 AMPosted by Hellmage
I didn't even mention their added advantage of being able to freeze their opponent AND their minions AND do a ton of damage all at the same time.


Oh really? Please describe a realistic scenario where this happened "all at the same time."

01/31/2014 09:01 AMPosted by Hellmage
The bottomline line is that Mage abilities like Arcane Missle, Frostbolt, Ice Lance, Frost Nova, Fireblast, Pyroblast, and Blizzard need a higher mana cost instead of players being able to spam these game-changing abilities without any skill at all.


You might be the first person ever to describe Arcane Missles and Ice Lance as "game-changing."

Also, Frost Nova, Blizzard, and Pyroblast all recently DID have their mana cost increased, and are by no means spammable. Pyro's mana cost was increased to the maximum. How are we going to increase it again without deleting the card?

For someone who's criticizing another poster's knowledge of the game yours seems a little sketchy as well.
Posts: 120
Well, the pain with mages is they can wipe your board turn after turn after turn... and then on top of that make you lose a shipload of health on a later turn.

Even worse, as they wipe your minions off the board, there are a lot of minions in normal that have +1 spellpower. I know I have my mage deck around spell power, which means you can lay down a cheap minion, not for attack, but to abuse it for one round of BOOM. Flamestrike that kills anything up to 5 health, and nothing you can do about it (that round). A 2 mana spell that does one damage to all, can quickly become a +2 to all on turn 3, a moment where nothing but a druid has a chance to have anything stronger on the board. Not even talking about the ton of cards that do 3 damage at random (which can often be controlled on first turns), the four 'kill the minion' cards and two sheep cards which are instant death as well combined with the hero spell.

Only weapons can get you an advantage, but any mage with the basic cards in its deck can take control of the board from turn one, without you being able to do something about it. I think that's what the OP really means, apart from the fact that you should not be able to do so much unblockable, choosable and direct damage in one turn as a mage can, even without minions on the board.

Yes, I lost from mages that used zero minions (alright, I have a starter deck but so have they). One class has this, another has that. Mages have it all and more.
Edited by Shaladhar on 1/31/2014 9:57 AM PST
Posts: 32
01/31/2014 09:23 AMPosted by Firemane
Pyro's mana cost was increased to the maximum. How are we going to increase it again without deleting the card?


I was referring to the mana cost for Fireball, dimwit. Use common sense....I mentioned the specifics in my first post already so I'm not repeating it. Don't bother replying if you aren't going to actually read the details. You're confused because you didn't review my original post. You're basically jumping into someone else's conversation halfway through and then being critical because you don't know what was already discussed. The list of spells I mentioned need to be re-tweaked in various ways, there isn't a cookie cutter method for balancing all the skills; they need to be handled on an individual basis.
Edited by Hellmage on 1/31/2014 10:24 AM PST
Posts: 32
01/31/2014 09:56 AMPosted by Shaladhar
es, I lost from mages that used zero minions (alright, I have a starter deck but so have they). One class has this, another has that. Mages have it all and more.


And that's exactly my point. Mages really don't even need minions because they can spam pure damage, both direct and AOE. They only use minions as shields.

For those who don't know seem to know what "spam" means in a turn-based card game, I'm referring their ability to cast high damage or disabling spells almost every turn.
Posts: 57
Mages are only overpowered if the person playing them is a strong critical thinker. If you can play turns ahead and successfully predict what your opponent is going to do then the mage class is very easy. Obviously they have their setbacks or there would be way more in the higher ranks. Mage is a class that allows very little room for error if you want a chance at winning. It's not just a matter of Pyroblasting faces like it was pre-nerf. In fact most people aren't even playing Pyroblast anymore because it's far too situational at 10 mana.

Most mage decks run a higher spell to minion ratio, which means cards like Ice Block are absolutely necessary to keep it balanced. People complaining about Ice Block are generally the ones who throw all their eggs into one basket, make a mistake, and then pay for it. Stop being so hungry for blood and play around the Ice Block logically and it's just another card.

Long story short, quit crying about this/that being OP when most of the reasons for your anguish are costly mistakes you've made throughout the game.
Edited by SOLDOUTBLOOD on 1/31/2014 10:30 AM PST
Posts: 32
Strong critical thinker? Little room for error? Lol, what in the world are you talking about? The Mage class is for total Noobs that don't know to do much of anything except cast direct damage on their opponent. There is a reason why everyone starts off with the Mage and it's not because it requires "strong critical thinking." When I even see a player using the Mage, all I imagine is some noob that doesn't have the skill to use more challenging and less abused champions.
Posts: 57
If you're getting beaten down by "total noobs" then what exactly does that say for you? Maybe you need to step back and reevaluate your "abilities" as a player, and make an effort to learn how to play the game instead of just hammering your fists down on your keyboard and typing out whine fest after whine fest.
Posts: 401
01/31/2014 10:05 AMPosted by Hellmage
Pyro's mana cost was increased to the maximum. How are we going to increase it again without deleting the card?


I was referring to the mana cost for Fireball, dimwit. Use common sense....


I responded to what you said:

01/31/2014 09:01 AMPosted by Hellmage
The bottomline line is that Mage abilities like Arcane Missle, Frostbolt, Ice Lance, Frost Nova, Fireblast, Pyroblast, and Blizzard need a higher mana cost


If you want to have an intelligent conversation, perhaps we shouldn't be name calling. You're already on record as saying that anyone who plays Mage is a noob with no skill, so right away you've set the tone that Hellmage is always going to win this argument in his own head. You've proven that by laying into anyone who disagrees with you.

01/31/2014 10:05 AMPosted by Hellmage
You're confused because you didn't review my original post. You're basically jumping into someone else's conversation halfway through and then being critical because you don't know what was already discussed.


I'm not confused at all. Your original post was a wall of text about why you think Mages are overpowered, but what it's really about is that Hellmage has difficulty with Mages (and Priests) when he plays his Hunter deck. There's nothing particularly original there so let's not pretend we need to delve that deeply to understand the conversation.

01/31/2014 10:05 AMPosted by Hellmage
The list of spells I mentioned need to be re-tweaked in various ways, there isn't a cookie cutter method for balancing all the skills; they need to be handled on an individual basis.


Balance is done at the class level, not the card level. The bottom line is how the class performs in general, which is why the fact that YOU are having problems against them proves nothing.

Your argument is essentially a version of "I can easily beat every class except X, therefore X is overpowered." It's an argument you'll see a lot on these forums, but it's a logical fallacy: "I am scissors. Nerf rock. Paper is fine." It doesn't hold water.

To get more specific, people have pointed out that the best counter to direct damage is healing, which is more mana efficient. This is a fact. Your response is that Hunters (your main class apparently) don't have access to healing, outside of neutral cards. This is also a fact. But all that means is that your Hunter deck is weak to Mages, not that Mages are overpowered.

If you're running into a lot of Mages and losing most of them, the answer is to change your deck, change your class, change something, anything, to try to stem the tide of losses. On the other hand, if only 1 game in 10 is against a Mage and you do well enough in the other 9, then you have no real reason to complain.

If you're stuck on playing Hunter, then there are anti-mage variants out there. It might mean exposing yourself to other classes, but that's the nature of the game. No deck is strong against everyone. You have to play against what you're seeing the most of.
Posts: 135
01/31/2014 09:01 AMPosted by Hellmage
The only two classes that have absolutely ZERO health or armor boosts are the Rogue and Hunter. And your ridiculous comment about Hunter's having "insane burst" damage is beyond unrealistic because most of their spell damage can only be used on minions in the first place, not the opposing champion.


This here confirms what i already suspected.... you have no idea how to play a hunter.

Your insane burst doesn't come from spells, (though sometimes it can be part of it) it comes from UTH combos. But since you dont know that hunters are capable of high burst you probably dont know what that is or your not using it right.

My guess is your new to the game and as such your prejudice towards mages will hopefully change once you adjust to the current meta. But by all means.... write me off as a troll, im not the one stuck at a low rank complaining about how mages are op despite the fact that your fully aware that mages dont see play at a competitive level because there not strong enough to compete in the current meta. That on its own just completely invalidates your argument.
Posts: 32
01/31/2014 10:44 AMPosted by SOLDOUTBLOOD
f you're getting beaten down by "total noobs" then what exactly does that say for you?


Huh? Who said anything about getting beat down by noobs? This thread is about the Mage class being OP. Read the title dude and avoid making up phrases. Your reply makes no sense.
Posts: 855
One of these days these people will eventually claw their way out of rank 22 and never see Mages again. Assuming they learn some strategy and skill first.
Posts: 32
This here confirms what i already suspected.... you have no idea how to play a hunter.


Yet again you're making comments that completely miss the point of this thread and totally not grasping what I am even talking about. Let me say it slowly: Read.....The.....Title.....everything that I've said is in reference to the Mage class's high amount of UNBLOCKABLE spell damage and has nothing to do with how anyone plays any other class. I am purely talking about how OP the Mage is.

I have even't talked about my various Hunter decks which are highly successful in ranked. Plus I've already stated in my earlier post that I win 80% of my matches in ranked and moving through the ladder quickly. I have also said that most of my matches I believe to be well balanced. So how does ANY of those facts even equate to not knowing how to play Hunter? Your logic here is terribly flawed. None of my posts is even remotely covering how I play the Hunter, it's all about the Mage. There are multiple strategies for every class that are viable.

It's obvious that you're just back to trolling again. Once again, I don't feed trolls so I''m going to have to ignore the rest of your rhetoric, sorry kid.
Edited by Hellmage on 1/31/2014 1:44 PM PST
Posts: 32
01/31/2014 01:38 PMPosted by Silke
One of these days these people will eventually claw their way out of rank 22 and never see Mages again.


Never see them again? Well you know that's total nonsense. It wasn't until I got past Rank 14 that I started seeing less Mages, which happened very quickly since I win most of my matches as a Hunter. Instead I see more Priests spamming health boost minions and Paladin's spamming Divine Shield minions. Every once in a while I'll see Shamans or Warlocks using full Murloc decks. Druids and Warriors are the next frequent classes I see. I almost never see Rogues at all and Hunters are also rarely played. One of the reasons why I play the Hunter is because it's more challenging. I've played using Mage, Paladin, and Priest decks already and firmly believe that those 3 classes are the least challenging to play, so therefore I don't use them in Ranked.

Anyway, just because I don't see Mages as much doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion in a thread that is specifically about about them. Because the fact remains that Mages are simply OP and I think the main reason why I am seeing them less around the single digit ranks is because of the reasons I already stated about the Mage being an attractive overpowered option for players with very little skill.
Edited by Hellmage on 1/31/2014 2:04 PM PST
Posts: 46
Turn 8 ? Fireball, Fireball, and bye bye.

Mage is OP, end of story. GG (if you are a mage).

Agree ? No ? Ok, Turn 9, Pyroblast + any other card "1 less mana", bye bye.
Posts: 135
It's obvious that you're just back to trolling again. Once again, I don't feed trolls so I''m going to have to ignore the rest of your rhetoric.


Every argument which counters yours or that you dislike you claim is *trolling*

If direct damage was such the big issue you think it is then mages would be seen at competitive play, since the nerfs mages no longer appear in tournaments. You cant challenge this fact and you cant claim that im trolling by pointing it out.
Posts: 32
01/31/2014 01:59 PMPosted by Eleude
Turn 8 ? Fireball, Fireball, and bye bye.

Mage is OP, end of story. GG (if you are a mage).

Agree ? No ? Ok, Turn 9, Pyroblast + any other card "1 less mana", bye bye.


Finally someone that knows what they're talking about. That's exactly the point that I've been making in this thread and yet people are actually trying to argue against it without backing it up. The Mage can win the battle in a clutch scenario within 2 turns entirely too easily even when you have a 22 health lead ahead of them. Particularly when you're using a class that has no life-saving abilities like health and armor.

Within two turns late game the Mage can deal a minimum of 73% of your health in damage with just THREE cards, and its completely unblockable. NO other class in the game can do that kind of damage in two turns without any way to counter it.
Posts: 2,157
Turn 8 ? Fireball, Fireball, and bye bye.

Mage is OP, end of story. GG (if you are a mage).

Agree ? No ? Ok, Turn 9, Pyroblast + any other card "1 less mana", bye bye.


/facepalm.

Again, this post is out of date and irrelevant, especially if it's teaching people incorrect information such as Pyroblast's mana cost.

As has been said, the bottom line is since the massive nerfs to the freeze spells and pyroblasts, mages have been nigh invisible in the tournament winners and top ranked play. Druids and rogues are dominating, I don't know why you're wasting so much hate on a class whose main spells got nerfed already and are no longer competitive in most cases.
Edited by Migol on 1/31/2014 2:19 PM PST
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