Mage OP?

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Posts: 40
01/31/2014 02:02 PMPosted by Kainaq
Every argument which counters yours or that you dislike you claim is *trolling*


No, the problem is that you aren't even making a counter argument. You're making a statements that either has nothing to do with what I'm talking about or your resulting to sheer criticism. Worse yet, you'll say something that is completely untrue when comparing the Mage to another class's offensive capability.

If you want to make a counter argument, then you need to give a better explanation as to how Fireball and Pyroblast aren't overpowered when it can be dealt in two turns without any good way to counter it. You're just making a lot of blanket statements that don't even prove anything. don't care whether or not Mage is played often in tournaments, that doesn't even mean anything to me. I don't play Mage either and I'm in ranked, so what? There is no value in that kind of argument.

And saying that they were already nerfed doesn't mean anything either because I've already explained in detail why they need MORE nerfing. You have failed to provide any clear indication as to why they should not be adjusted. The most you could come up with is an inaccurate comment about Hunters dealing 10 damage in one turn by their 6th mana crystal, which isn't even true because they need a minion for that. So to accomplish that they would need two turns to do that 10 damage AND they would need to pray that their minion survived the previous round in order to 5 dmg per Kill Command instead of just 3.

And even if it were true that a Hunter can do 10 damage by their 6th crystal in one turn (which they obviously can't do), that damage isn't the same as dealing 22 damage which is clearly over twice the amount. So your arguments are flawed in multiple ways.
Posts: 40
Turn 8 ? Fireball, Fireball, and bye bye.

Mage is OP, end of story. GG (if you are a mage).

Agree ? No ? Ok, Turn 9, Pyroblast + any other card "1 less mana", bye bye.

/facepalm.

Again, this post is out of date and irrelevant, especially if it's teaching people incorrect information such as Pyroblast's mana cost.


You might want to slap yourself again, this time for responding with incorrect information.

#1: How is this post out of date when the Mage is still OP? Think again buddy.

#2: How does 9 mana crystal + a 0 cost extra mana crystal card not still equate to the price of Pyroblast? We all already know that it costs 10 mana. The problem isn't with Pyroblast by itself. No one is arguing that Pyroblast by itself is the issue. The problem is the fact that Pyro can still be combined with 2 Fireballs when used in just 2 consecutive turns. In other words, it's TOO much unblockable damage within too short a time period for it to be considered a balanced strategy.

Now here are some ideas to balance these damage issues:

1. Increase Fireball cost to at least 6 mana, so that Mages can only cast 1 per turn.

2. Add a neutral minion with a passive that makes the Hero completely untargetable by spell damage. (Minions can obviously be silenced or killed, so it balances)

3. Add a neutral secret card that completely blocks the next Hero spell.

4. Add a neutral secret card that reduces the damage from the next Hero spell by 50%.

5. Add a Hunter redirect secret card which misdirects spells to another random target

6. Add stronger neutral minions that have a Battle Cry which can provide Heroes with more heals.

7. Add Armor-Up spell for both the Hunter and Rogue classes or a neutral armor-up Battle Cry minion.

I'm not saying that all of those ideas should be introduced simultaneously, but the game could definitely use some of them to help balance the high amount of unblockable spell damage that some classes have.
Edited by Hellmage on 1/31/2014 3:08 PM PST
Posts: 219
1: You want to make fireball !@#$tier lava burst.
2: It requires 3 cards to do that. Theres better compoes for that amount of cards. Its your fault anyway if you let your health drop below 20 against mage.

2 (again) That would be really stupid. It would affect whole game, not just mages.
3:mages have it and its called counter spell. Its really %^-*ty.
4: Or you could use heals.
5: Almost same as previous, only worse.
6:there is.
7: No rogue/hunter would take that kinda card. Some people know how to beat mage already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

Im rank 9 rogue but never ever seen a mage. Must be really op.
Edited by Jaska on 1/31/2014 4:42 PM PST
Posts: 219
Mage is like so op that only rank 20<x<25 use it.
Beware when legendary ranked players hear about this insta win combo of yours! Whatch out for the 2x FB and pyro!
Or have already heard about it or seen it in action?.. I wonder why they dont use it...
Could it be that it really sucks and you are just bad player?
Posts: 40
01/31/2014 04:56 PMPosted by Jaska
I wonder why they dont use it...


First of all, there are no "legendary ranked players" or did you forget that this is a new game and a beta with balance issues and bugs that are still being worked.

And if I suck then how am I winning in ranked? Don't be a moron. This thread isn't about winning or losing matches, it's about having balanced abilities for all classes. The Mage is not yet balanced.
Edited by Hellmage on 1/31/2014 5:17 PM PST
Posts: 40
01/31/2014 04:40 PMPosted by Jaska
ts your fault anyway if you let your health drop below 20 against mage.


This has got to be the most incompetent statement that I've seen in this thread thusfar. You're acting like it's impossible to have your health hit below the 20 mark in a match against a Mage. I'm sure everyone would love to hear how you magically manage to keep your health from hitting 20 and below against a Mage without using heals of a specific Hero class during an entire match.

The Mage can cast Fireball on you for 6 damage by their FOURTH mana crystal. Seeing as how you only have 30 health, you're telling me that you somehow prevent them from doing ANYTHING over 4 damage for four entire turns. You're completely full of BS, because that's not even possible unless the Mage you're up against is a complete noob or AFK. Are you forgetting that they have a fire spell that they can lob at you every turn once they hit the 2nd mana crystal?

And what is that crap about "Or you could use heals." WHAT HEALS!? There are only 4 cards in the neutral deck that heal, and those heals are so weak that they are practically useless unless you're a Priest using them as extra buffs. You're more likely to lose matches if you waste slots by putting those 4 cards in your deck because they aren't strong enough to withstand anything.

You're just another troll that doesn't know what he's talking about. It's pretty clear you're only playing against the AI in practice mode and not in ranked if the most that Mages are doing to you is 10 damage during an entire match. Either that or you're a complete liar. Just go back to playing bots and stay out of this topic.
Edited by Hellmage on 1/31/2014 5:53 PM PST
Posts: 136
If the cards are not wining mages games at high lvl of competition then clearly there isnt an issue with them.

01/31/2014 02:29 PMPosted by Hellmage
If you want to make a counter argument, then you need to give a better explanation as to how Fireball and Pyroblast aren't overpowered when it can be dealt in two turns without any good way to counter it.


i pointed out the other classes had access to similar burst just from spells but you dismissed it as trolling again. If someone is using there spells to chuck at your face then there surrendering card advantage meaning that its much easier to dominate the board. The fact that there holding on to these cards and not feeling pressured to use fireball as a removal spell is down to you. (and dont respond with by the time they throw fireballs at you its to late to do anything because we both know thats total bs, statistically its highly unlikely that mages wold have both those cards in hand anyway)

Your mage tactic of throwing direct damage at your opponent clearly isn't viable at any decent level of play... you concede that point yet you still say its overpowered.

01/31/2014 02:29 PMPosted by Hellmage
No, the problem is that you aren't even making a counter argument. You're making a statements that either has nothing to do with what I'm talking about or your resulting to sheer criticism.


Counter arguments have been made... you just dismiss it as trolling :/

You have also given no reason as to why it should be nerfed other then the fact that one day a mage blew you up with multiple fire spells when he had a good hand and another day when you played king krush into mirror entity.
Posts: 219
01/31/2014 05:12 PMPosted by Hellmage
I wonder why they dont use it...


First of all, there are no "legendary ranked players" or did you forget that this is a new game and a beta with balance issues and bugs that are still being worked.

And if I suck then how am I winning in ranked? Don't be a moron. This thread isn't about winning or losing matches, it's about having balanced abilities for all classes. The Mage is not yet balanced.

LoL what?
You didnt know that theres rank called legendary?
Just google it, dont make ignorant statements.

And mage is so balanced that almost nobody uses after rank 20.
If they only cast spells at you, then you can easily gain board control that wins you the game. You gain more damage trough minions then mage from spells.

What rank are you anyway?
Get better and win against mages or stay bad/thread.
Posts: 1
I have to admit, I won nearly all of my recent games against Mages (constructed) but I really don't like them. In my last game he didn't play a single minion until turn 7, he just removed everything I deployed and that's how most games go for me.

You try to do some smart fancy stuff and it gets removed by a much cheaper card (-combo) and in a way that requires barely any skill which makes most games against mages boring for me.
Posts: 236
02/01/2014 02:33 AMPosted by Tesseract
I have to admit, I won nearly all of my recent games against Mages (constructed) but I really don't like them. In my last game he didn't play a single minion until turn 7, he just removed everything I deployed and that's how most games go for me.

You try to do some smart fancy stuff and it gets removed by a much cheaper card (-combo) and in a way that requires barely any skill which makes most games against mages boring for me.


Yeah, but you still won because it's not a viable tactic. It's extremely weak. That's the entire basis of making such a playstyle weak: So not many people would take it up. Note that "Not many people" doesn't equate to 0 people. Many players, including me, ever had dreams of making a spell heavy control deck. This was especially so when I first started the game. I was like "I'm totally making a blue-black control deck in this game". But unfortunately, it's extremely weak. Hence I moved on.

02/01/2014 12:55 AMPosted by Jaska
And if I suck then how am I winning in ranked? Don't be a moron. This thread isn't about winning or losing matches, it's about having balanced abilities for all classes. The Mage is not yet balanced.


There's another thing that cannot be overlooked: Your deck can be great against some deck archetypes, but weak against others. This others happens to be direct damage burn.

For now, it is true that double fireball is extremely strong for 12 damage. But conversely, many decks no longer run pyroblast. I guess there are still some people starting out on mages with the mindset of "this is the card I must craft asap for my mage deck!" because there are many guides out there that actually say so. Pre-nerf guides.

The thing is, if you advanced a little more, there are many other combos that pretty much can dish out the same amount of damage for about the same number of cards.

Preventing yourself from being killed by a combo is done by either, placing an obstruction. ie. Taunts. Or getting yourself out of kill range. Heals.
Despite direct damage avoiding taunts. It's now made un-viable to try to simply dish out direct damage turn after turn and still win. Probably only possible with perfect draw? So taunts do work against the rest of what mages play. Including the likes of raging worgen and all, which are pre-requisite of taking you down.

Heals get you out of kill range. Personally, I run alextraza. And healing myself up using it has won me quite a few games. It gets me out of kill range and then lets me take apart the combo afterwards. Combos that don't result in lethal are usually detrimental in terms of the lost card advantage. I really enjoy the thrill of winning a game off 3 health.

There are only 2 copies of fireball in each deck. Typically, I find myself throwing them onto minions. Unless of course, the person is unable to put in enough pressure, or I draw a fireball to sum the damage up for a lethal. So, against a well constructed deck in the higher ranks, mages don't usually have the luxury of throwing fireballs to the face, but instead onto that senjin shield master or yeti, which are 4 mana for 4 mana trades.

When it comes to class minions, actually, none of them are game winners. i.e. , they're not finishers. Of course, there's other minions that sync well like worgen, amani and berserker. But warriors sync equally as well too. Priests too, to a certain extent. So while this is a nice area, it's not exactly a niche. Every class has a few niches. Take Rouge for example: Combos and overall, strong single target removals/answers. Shaman: Overload, some nice damage and minion buffs. Paladins: Superior minion trading/neutralisation methods (divine shield, "follow the rules", equality) ect ect. And Mage's happens to be direct damage spells, currently only in the form of fireball. And freeze. Which was nerfed. It's still nice though, don't get me wrong. But it's really not that strong.

This would pretty much explain why mages are now seldom used in tournaments and currently have a low win rate amongst the more competitive of us players, ie, those of us who use hearthstats.

To show case how each class actually can dish out loads of damage in the late game really simply:
Druid: 6 mana: Summon 3 2/2 treants with charge + 3 mana give your characters +3 attack.
This is assuming that the druid's board is empty, Which is usually not the case. Assuming your taunt was shieldmaster, 13 damage would have went to you either way.

Hunters. A few ways, you should already know

Warrior: Frothing Berserker onto raging worgen + charge

Warrior's combo requires more cards, but the thing is, unlike spells or the druid one... They're still there after it's over. And you have to spend resources to get rid of them.

Wait. In fact, let me just stop here and highlight something:
Spells don't leave any creatures on the board. ie. Nothing that you need to get rid off after. That's the thing. Sure, they by-pass taunt. But they don't leave anything after. It's a trade off.

And it's one that currently tips in playing creatures's favor. As once again, stats prove that playing charge minions and the likes > direct damage spells.

In case you'd like to see these stats yourself:

http://hearthstats.net/jan
Posts: 40
Bottomline is that the Mage has too many power spells. Freezing all the minions we do have, freezing the opponent directly so you cant even attack with a weapon, doing extra damage spells to frozen enemies, and topping it all off with high damage Fireball and Pyroblast spells. All of which cannot be blocked. The Mage doesn't even need minions to win a game when stacking those OP spells, since so much of what they do cannot be avoided or negated at all.

And the supreme irony about all this is that the Mage is also the only class with the COUNTER SPELL card. How does the one class with the most spell damage and pressure have a counter spell card? That's ridiculously unfair to the other classes. That counter card belongs in the Neutral deck.
Edited by Hellmage on 2/1/2014 7:48 PM PST
Posts: 205
hellmage so untrue: Dont forget that spells are one time cards unlike minions which power increase the more they stay at board. Stacking those spells you say is much easier to say then done. Frostbolt is mainly used to kill early minions so doesn't count, fireballs.. if are able to keep them and u still rid of big hitters or core minions, u as mage deserve to win. Oh poly yes. U need to keep it for dragons tyrions etc. Be baited to use them earlier, you are doomed. Cone of cold , i see it rarely very high cost of it + ping eat you 6 mana. Frost nova? Never saw that, useful with giants i think.

Fireball fireball + ping 13 dmg oh ok. but the whole turn you lost without any impact at board control and those cards are gone, no more use of them unlike minions.

Fireballs from antonidas? Oh well, you had bad luck or used your hard removals and silents at wrong minions same story as sheep from mage POW.
And with that mage setup they are insta win for hunters and murlocks

Im not telling mages are total crap, i am not telling that they cannot annihilate you, even though i think are patch from from patch more screwed in wrong way and forced in some weird gameplay. I am just telling that your experience "deceive" yourself. Mage should not be copy of your class and gameplay with different cards, but it doesn't mean they can rule over you with ease.
If this case, your deck setup is much stronger against other classes so you admit that loss and move on happy you beat some nasty druid and paly more often. Or you have some serious holes in your deck,
Posts: 236
I figured there's really no point in debating or reasoning with him anymore. He didn't attempt to make a counter argument of any sort to supprt his claim but just reiterated his point. He's simply hating on the class' mechanics because he feels that there's no workabout.
Posts: 136
02/01/2014 09:30 PMPosted by mxksowie
I figured there's really no point in debating or reasoning with him anymore. He didn't attempt to make a counter argument of any sort to supprt his claim but just reiterated his point. He's simply hating on the class' mechanics because he feels that there's no workabout.


Convincing Hellmage is like trying to reason with a young earth creationist.. no matter how much information you throw his way his faith is so strong that mere facts can not shake them.
Posts: 365
mage is so broken, able to avoid taunts with overpowered cheap spells, board clear for 7 mana, most overpowered hero power, able to ping for enrage, kill anything with one health, attack themselves for a cheaper molten giant, attack the enemy, pop divine shields, 2 shaman taunts for only 1 mana and guaranteed. great secrets both offensive and defensive, not even fun to play as or fun to play against. burst nuke class is easy to win with defensive minions..
Posts: 219
02/21/2014 04:41 PMPosted by Arctik
mage is so broken, able to avoid taunts with overpowered cheap spells, board clear for 7 mana, most overpowered hero power, able to ping for enrage, kill anything with one health, attack themselves for a cheaper molten giant, attack the enemy, pop divine shields, 2 shaman taunts for only 1 mana and guaranteed. great secrets both offensive and defensive, not even fun to play as or fun to play against. burst nuke class is easy to win with defensive minions..


So broken and op that nobody uses it anymore in competetive play and it has lowest winratio.
Unblockable damage with cheap spell, congrats you gained zero board control.

Other classes too can "ping" divine shields if you didnt know.
Warlocks get their health lower faster then mage and get something out of it, like a card.
Board clear for 7 mana? Lets assume that your opponent is an idiot and put every minion on the board, then it might work. Otherwise you wasted 7 mana and gaindd zero board control.

And Mage secrets arent even that good, you can easily play around them.
L2p
Posts: 2
I'm just posting to support Hellmages arguments. I believe the Mage class needs to be re-balanced and/or some defense mechanism needs to be placed against their powerful, damaging, disabling spells. I think a secret block spell or a secret armor against spell would be great; something that would work like the equivalent of a dispel card in MTG. I think its only right... as I've had quite a few games where my powerful, buffed minions get wiped after a freeze and then a powerful aoe damage spell all in 2 turns.

So what if Mages dont see tournaments or high ranks, what about us players who are in low ranks? are we suppose to suffer through all of it? How is this game suppose retain players with new players being wiped out by mages after being matched up against them with only a fresh deck + 3 or 4 expert cards. There needs to be balance throughout all ranks for all classes; saying Mages are weak late games proves there are some balance issue, so don't bother using that as an argument.

With that said i credit Hellmage, I discredit Kainaq and his useless arguements and i discredit Firemane for going out of topic and making this topic harder than it is....
Edited by LordYuber on 2/22/2014 3:29 PM PST
Posts: 469
ISo what if Mages dont see tournaments or high ranks,

what about us players who are in low ranks?

are we suppose to suffer through all of it? How is this game suppose retain players with new players being wiped out by mages after being matched up against them with only a fresh deck + 3 or 4 expert cards. There needs to be balance throughout all ranks for all classes; saying Mages are weak late games proves there are some balance issue, so don't bother using that as an argument.

With that said i credit Hellmage, I discredit Kainaq and his useless arguements and i discredit Firemane for going out of topic and making this topic harder than it is....


Let me see if I understand this correctly...

You're basically saying... that the beginner deck (mage) that everyone starts with is common at the lowest of ranks... and it doesn't perform well in the higher ranks (meaning its stuck in the low ranks). But because you yourself cannot overcome the lowest ranks with the lowest ranked players using one of the worst performing class decks available, that this class (mage) should be nerfed even more than it already has been so that you can climb the ranks.

That mages don't perform well in the higher ranks is precisely why it can't be nerfed anymore. That you can't overcome the lowest of ranks to get past the glut of newbies using the starter class deck (mage) says little about balance of the Mage class and a great deal about your ability to play the game.
Posts: 125
As a low ranked shaman player, I do have problems dealing with mages.

I place my 6 mana taunt and it either gets sheeped/fireball.

If I managed to keep all my early game minions, it gets flame strike or whatever that is that deals 4 damage to all when I reach turn 7 or turn 8.

Think of it this way, if I play a 6 mana card, it gets destroyed by a 4 mana mage card (sheep/fireball)

The following cards are equal to a 6 mana minion card but no they only cost 4 and they are more versatile.
2xfireball
2xsheep

Assume on 10 crystals if both boards are empty,
Me: 1x Lord of arena (6 mana) and some random 4 mana minions.
Mage: 1x Lord of arena and 1x fireball (killing my LOA)

Now mage have the upper hand as he is still keeping his LOA and my 4 mana minions might be useless against him for this turn

Oh course the mage secret is also annoying as ever...free heal just like a paladin...
Edited by kelvinL on 2/22/2014 5:58 PM PST
Posts: 947
02/22/2014 05:56 PMPosted by kelvinL
As a low ranked shaman player, I do have problems dealing with mages.

I place my 6 mana taunt and it either gets sheeped/fireball.

If I managed to keep all my early game minions, it gets flame strike or whatever that is that deals 4 damage to all when I reach turn 7 or turn 8.

Think of it this way, if I play a 6 mana card, it gets destroyed by a 4 mana mage card (sheep/fireball)

The following cards are equal to a 6 mana minion card but no they only cost 4 and they are more versatile.
2xfireball
2xsheep

Assume on 10 crystals if both boards are empty,
Me: 1x Lord of arena (6 mana) and some random 4 mana minions.
Mage: 1x Lord of arena and 1x fireball (killing my LOA)

Now mage have the upper hand as he is still keeping his LOA and my 4 mana minions might be useless against him for this turn

Oh course the mage secret is also annoying as ever...free heal just like a paladin...


i will play with you then.

now i shaman use fire emental and hit arena lord with the 4 mana minion.

summon a toten and a 2 mana minion.

i have a 6/5 on the board a toten and a 2 mana minion.

you turn.
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