Seriously what is taking you so long

Posts: 465
I just finished a ranked game with a Mage in which he basically put me away with 2 spells (pyros). I controlled the board the ENTIRE game. Cone of cold Ice lance / Frost bolt kept my minions in place while he was spamming draw cards just so that he can draw his BALANCED spells. Note the sarcasm there.

Uhhh so frustrated how this was even overlooked. Personally I will never play a Mage until its fixed, not going to lie its incredibly cheap right now. Someone with no skill can point and click and make strategy irrelevant at that point. Just hope for your spells to come into hand which are great odds when you have the control they do.

Blizzard / Flamestrike / Cone of Cold / Arcane explosion (with +1 spells ...basically free conc's)

Yeah, who's in charge of handling the Mage, you might want to revisit his resume.
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The most recent statistics show that mages are losing over half their games. They're also not very prominent at the higher ranks of play (though I've heard they're still tearing through the lower ones). This suggests the class is balanced just fine, and the issue is that many players don't understand how to play against mage.

Read this thread.

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10973087435

P.S. You should actually try making a mage deck and winning 10 games with it. I understand you're avoiding it out of some false righteousness or something, but you may be surprised on the different perspective you have when you're the one using the abilities rather than the one being hit by them.
Edited by Sar on 1/1/2014 2:38 AM PST
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Posts: 465
Let's see

10 pyro
10 pyro
6 fireball
6 fireball
7 frost bolt / ice lance
7 frost bolt / ice lance

If a high end player wanted to play a Mage at higher ranks I'm pretty sure he can master it to the point where he is virtually in the 90% win bracket. I barely play it and win 7 out of 10 games and this is my first attempt at card games.

Spells aren't balanced, they shouldn't be allowed to go through taunts. Not just for the Mage, all classes. Makes taunts almost trivial at times.
Edited by FeAr on 1/1/2014 2:50 AM PST
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01/01/2014 02:49 AMPosted by FeAr

If a high end player wanted to play a Mage at higher ranks I'm pretty sure he can master it to the point where he is virtually in the 90% win bracket.


You may be "pretty sure" but you are wrong. There are mages at the higher brackets, but Warlocks, Rogues, and Druids are SUBSTANTIALLY more common. Furthermore, the statistics available to us show Mages winning under half their games.

So look, I understand why it may FEEL this way with mages. They have a different win condition than most classes, and it may feel like you're helpless against them because of that. However, I'm telling you, there are relatively simple ways to play against mages that beat these abilities, which is why they're not currently all that successful at high ranks; it's not that they can't be countered, it's that a lot of newer players don't understand how to do it.

Read the thread I posted, it explains how you counter mages.
Edited by Sar on 1/1/2014 2:55 AM PST
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Posts: 465
I read it. Although I agree with your thread it leaves you open against a lot of other decks. I'm not entirely sure I want to build a deck just around the Mage. In saying that I have a high success rate against Mages, I don't lose often however when I do its because of pyro spam. Just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Spells need balancing.
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01/01/2014 02:58 AMPosted by FeAr
I read it. Although I agree with your thread it leaves you open against a lot of other decks. I'm not entirely sure I want to build a deck just around the Mage. In saying that I have a high success rate against Mages, I don't lose often however when I do its because of pyro spam. Just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Spells need balancing.


It doesn't actually leave you open to other decks; these decks I've listed are all completely viable decks in their own right that do quite well in ladder (with the possible exception of Hunter; Hunter seems to be lacking ANY particularly viable decks at the moment though, and the anti-mage variant actually happens to be the best one they seem to have available at the moment).

Keep in mind that part of crafting a deck is about balancing well. Paladin makes a good example of this. If literally the ONLY thing you wanted to do was counter Mage, you'd put in every healing ability they have available, including Holy Light. However, Holy Light is a pretty lackluster spell for Paladins; on the other hand, Lay on Hands, Truesilver Champion, and Guardian of Kings are all good cards against any deck. So, once again, it becomes a balancing act; how much do you want to counter mages vs. every other class (and I don't mean "mages" and "other class" as two categories; I mean, one at a time, how much do you want to counter each of the 9 classes). This type of balancing is part of making a good deck. Another example for Paladins is that Divine Favor and Lay on Hands are both viable draw cards. You need to have some draw cards in your deck. But if you need the extra healing to counter mages and other direct-damage classes, then all else equal, that's going to make Lay on Hands more valuable than Divine Favor.

To give an example of this concept that you probably already do and don't even realize, consider countering Warriors. One of the biggest aspects of messing up Warriors is slowing down their weapons. Now, that doesn't mean that weapon destruction is only useful against warriors; other classes use it too. But it's strongest against warriors, much as healing is in general strongest against mages but still useful against many other classes. If Warrior was the ONLY thing you wanted to beat, you'd put in every weapon destruction card: Bloodsail Corsair, Acidic Swamp Ooze, Harrison Jones. But in practice, you recognize that some of these cards are better than others. So in a balancing act sort of sense, it's very common to put in the Swamp Oozes but not the other two.
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Posts: 465
I understand your examples. For one paladins seems the most balanced in order to handle pretty much anything. As for handling warriors, you can only destroy so many weapons. Some of them are running 6+. 2 gorehowls, arcanite, waraxe, weaponsmiths. I guess it really comes down to RNG really, like any card game luck needs to be there.

Meh. Poker all over again.
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01/01/2014 03:24 AMPosted by FeAr
I understand your examples. For one paladins seems the most balanced in order to handle pretty much anything. As for handling warriors, you can only destroy so many weapons. Some of them are running 6+. 2 gorehowls, arcanite, waraxe, weaponsmiths. I guess it really comes down to RNG really, like any card game luck needs to be there.

Meh. Poker all over again.


It's a combination of RNG and rock paper scissors. In any card game, RNG will be a factor. It's much less of a factor than you might think at first though. You get to seed the odds of drawing what you need in your deck. You of course won't win every game; but over a large number of games, any random factors will average out.
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Posts: 100
You forget to mention the other hand: Shaman, Rogues, Warlock (to some extent) and Hunter.

For those you need 3 cards to win:
Alex which will put them to 15 hp
Fireball
Pyro

Also, please don't tell me that they should run some neutral healing minions. Even the little healing those can provide will not do save them. 2x Farseer is simply another Fireball.
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01/01/2014 04:11 AMPosted by emihir0
You forget to mention the other hand: Shaman, Rogues, Warlock (to some extent) and Hunter.

For those you need 3 cards to win:
Alex which will put them to 15 hp
Fireball
Pyro

Also, please don't tell me that they should run some neutral healing minions. Even the little healing those can provide will not do save them. 2x Farseer is simply another Fireball.


Read this thread. http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10973087435

I know you haven't.

Anyway, Warlocks, Rogues, and Hunters don't need to use healing.
Edited by Sar on 1/1/2014 4:14 AM PST
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Posts: 236
Well in my rogue deck, I'm practising with a gimmicky combo of vanish and anything battlecry related. I haven't tried it with my 2 youthfull brewmasters but that could be something.
It could definitely be a way for a rogue to get more uses out of witch doctors( 2 mana 2/1, heal 2), (6 mana, 5/4. heal hero for 4) Priestes of Elune, 3/3 Earthern Far Seer heal for 3 and so on.
These are the neutral minions that every class could use I think but that leaves very little in terms of other minions you could pick, if you're afraid of the direct damage that a mage could deal.
My biggest problem is really the fact that the mage (everyone else as well but still) uses minions like the kobold, the ogre, pretty much any minion that buffs spell damage and suddenly even arcane explosions, arcane missles, cone of cold becomes very effective at clearing the board of the higher than 1-2 minions. It makes the combo of frost bolt and ice lance even more destructive then it already is. Other then that I wholly agree with your strategy of healing but aside from the pala/druid it's kind of tough and the armor smith combo on my warrior isn't something I can pull off every time, so armor as a means of healing doesn't always work either. Unless I'm playing as a druid or a pala, I'm always worried vs a mage and that's just sad. Too many times have I've seen other classes making a comeback against me and vice versa and a well played is deserved but with the mage it's just disgusting.
There's too much syngery with spells and minions that work in the favor of the mage.
I'm in the low ranks as you speak and I bounce between rank 19-17 alot because of win streaks and most of the time my streaks are ruined by mages that play absolutely abysmal and somehow still win.
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01/01/2014 05:12 AMPosted by SperoMcgee
Well in my rogue deck, I'm practising with a gimmicky combo of vanish and anything battlecry related. I haven't tried it with my 2 youthfull brewmasters but that could be something.
It could definitely be a way for a rogue to get more uses out of witch doctors( 2 mana 2/1, heal 2), (6 mana, 5/4. heal hero for 4) Priestes of Elune, 3/3 Earthern Far Seer heal for 3 and so on.
These are the neutral minions that every class could use I think but that leaves very little in terms of other minions you could pick, if you're afraid of the direct damage that a mage could deal.
My biggest problem is really the fact that the mage (everyone else as well but still) uses minions like the kobold, the ogre, pretty much any minion that buffs spell damage and suddenly even arcane explosions, arcane missles, cone of cold becomes very effective at clearing the board of the higher than 1-2 minions. It makes the combo of frost bolt and ice lance even more destructive then it already is. Other then that I wholly agree with your strategy of healing but aside from the pala/druid it's kind of tough and the armor smith combo on my warrior isn't something I can pull off every time, so armor as a means of healing doesn't always work either. Unless I'm playing as a druid or a pala, I'm always worried vs a mage and that's just sad. Too many times have I've seen other classes making a comeback against me and vice versa and a well played is deserved but with the mage it's just disgusting.
There's too much syngery with spells and minions that work in the favor of the mage.
I'm in the low ranks as you speak and I bounce between rank 19-17 alot because of win streaks and most of the time my streaks are ruined by mages that play absolutely abysmal and somehow still win.


Rogues don't generally rely on healing to beat mages; they focus on fast aggression and killing them around turn 7.
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Posts: 236
Yeah I know that wasn't the point I was conveying with my post.
I was merely pointing out what I'm playing with at the moment.
It's not merely with rogue, it's with any class I play vs the mage, the only 2 with whom I fare better with vs Mages specificly is with paladin/druid because of their own cost efficient healing spells add in any neutral healing minions to go with your overall strategy with those 2 classes is fun and definitely improve my chances vs Mages, it's just the early part of the game were in they start with mana wryms/kobolds etc and you don't have an immediate answer to it, it quickly spirals down to something you might barely recover from.
I'm doing ok every now and then vs mages, just wish their combos weren't so incredibly infuriating.
At least vs Town Scrubs and Murlock rushes I found a counter with UTH with positive results.
Eh, maybe I'll figure out more stuff once I unlock/craft more cards.
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01/01/2014 05:40 AMPosted by SperoMcgee
Yeah I know that wasn't the point I was conveying with my post.
I was merely pointing out what I'm playing with at the moment.
It's not merely with rogue, it's with any class I play vs the mage, the only 2 with whom I fare better with vs Mages specificly is with paladin/druid because of their own cost efficient healing spells add in any neutral healing minions to go with your overall strategy with those 2 classes is fun and definitely improve my chances vs Mages, it's just the early part of the game were in they start with mana wryms/kobolds etc and you don't have an immediate answer to it, it quickly spirals down to something you might barely recover from.
I'm doing ok every now and then vs mages, just wish their combos weren't so incredibly infuriating.
At least vs Town Scrubs and Murlock rushes I found a counter with UTH with positive results.
Eh, maybe I'll figure out more stuff once I unlock/craft more cards.


Well, my thread was mainly designed to counter what I call "Ignore the Board" (IBT) mages; basically, the type of mage that freezes you down and tries to finish you off with direct damage. The reason I was focused on that wasn't because other versions don't have counters, but because every possible variant is going to have a different set of counters, and I've found that IBT mage is one of the things people have the least understanding as to how to counter. When mages focus more on dropping minions, things like Pyroblast can still be rough, but countering a mage whose actually trying to control the board, I feel, is a little more natural to people. That's why I was focused more on the IBT (i.e. the thing people have the most confusion on).

Mana Wyrm + Mirror Images is a very rough opening to counter. All you can really do is try to fight through it, but it's probably going to be a tough start regardless. Obviously any direct damage for 3 can finish off the wyrm, and in a pinch, a silence can work as well. The positives are that

1) the Mirror Entities do cost a card of the mage that isn't going to do any damage to you (i.e. if it was a Leper Gnome for example, you'd be taking damage from both the Gnome and the Wyrm each turn) and
2) there's roughly a 40% chance of drawing a card you need in your opening hand if you full-out mulligan for it; there's a substantially lower chance of getting 2 different cards you need. So while it's brutal when they draw both, it's not a common occurrence; plus there are a lot of brutal 2-card opening combos, such as Faery Dragon / Argent Protector, Northsire Cleric / Power Word: Shield, and Defias Ringleader / Shadowstep.

------------------

As for Vanish, I'm really not a fan of Vanish in Rogue decks. Most of the effective rogue decks involving repeatedly slamming the opponent with series of cheap cards. This has two implications that are bad for Vanish. First, Vanish is expensive, which really messes with your ability to keep slamming cheap stuff into the opponent every turn (i.e. any expensive card tends to be prohibitive in an aggro deck). Second, if you're playing an aggresive deck vs. a non-aggressive deck, every turn that goes along you're going to become worse and worse relative to your opponent. That is, aggro deck are strongest on turns 1-3, but as the game drags on and you start having 7, 8, 9, etc. mana per turn, the slower deck starts to become increasingly stronger while you become increasingly weaker. Thus, Vanish is more likely to hurt you than your opponent, since around turn 6 you should have more minions on the board than your opponent. Furthermore, Vanish isn't a destruction card, it's a stalling card (much like Frost Nova); stalling is bad for an aggro deck because, like I said, every turn you stall is going to diminish your advantage.

As for Brewmaster, I'm not a fan of him in aggro decks either. He has some uses, but in aggro decks, it's all about tempo tempo tempo. I know there are cards with great battlecries, but Brewmaster is inherently a tempo loss even when used well; you may double-dip on the battlecry, but your losing mana you've spent by sending it back into your hand. I'd rather play a new minion than juggle an old one back into my hand to play it again.

The one exception I've seen to this are charge minions, particularly Leeroy Jenkins. In these cases, the juggling effect essentially turns the charge minion into a direct damage spell. However, if that's your goal, you're better off with Shadowstep, since it allows you to re-play the charge minion basically for free (the exception being Argent Commander, which is still pretty pricy). But for example, if you happen to have both of Shadowsteps in your hand (obviously this isn't going to always happen), Arcane Golem can do 12 damage in a single turn for 4 mana, and Leeroy can do 18 damage for 8 mana.
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Posts: 65
Play a mage yourself if you want to learn how deal with them. You will discover that the mage class has tons of weaknesses you did not suspect, and that you can't win every game just spamming Fireballs and Pyros. I'm pretty sure that after 4 or 5 games as a mage Vs a Warlock or a Paladin or a Druid your perspective on the class will be totally different.
Edited by Mr0range on 1/1/2014 10:06 AM PST
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