Do we need a change to ice block to prevent the second one?

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@Verdash that is a great idea
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Posts: 72
@Verdash (edit): that sounds legit, but wouldn't it feel a bit lacking compared to frost nova? (maybe I'm wrong there)

@ShadowcatX: I actually made my otk expecially to counter ice block, because mage can't give his giants charge, and I want to bring the warrior from high health to 0 hekath in one turn.

One ice block isn't the problem, as I said (ok, it allow mage to play 2 giants for 0 if you bring him below 10 health, but that won't kill you if you have triggered ice block and so, can kill it next turn)

it becomes a problem if either
-you haven't triggered ice block (in case you're at fault)
-the mage plays a second ice bloc (+eventually some freeze to prevent from trading giants) in case either the giants either the second ice block is at fault)

And btw, there are like a ton of ways to deal with shaman otk (flare and explosive traps for hunters, holy nova/taunts for priests, equality consecrate or wild pyromancer for paladins...).

At first I was playing a spell power rogue, but it seems that if you can't trigger the ice block in one go from 17 health for the mage, you'll have two molten giant + an ice block to face, so otk it is, deal with it (you can).
Edited by Neerzidaas on 1/2/2014 7:18 AM PST
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01/02/2014 07:12 AMPosted by Deception5
@Verdash that is a great idea


01/02/2014 07:17 AMPosted by Neerzidaas
@Verdash (edit): that sounds legit, but wouldn't it feel a bit lacking compared to frost nova? (maybe I'm wrong there)

It wasn't my idea, read it on the forum somewhere.

And yeah, it does seem like a Frost Nova clone. The differences are, Frost Nova keeps your minions "mostly" safe, whereas Ice Block works against charge.

01/02/2014 07:17 AMPosted by Neerzidaas
And btw, there are like a ton of ways to deal with shaman otk (flare and explosive traps for hunters

I will admit being at a complete loss how Flare works against a Shaman OTK...abusing Stealth neutrals and Wind-Fury? Yes, I am unaware of what the Shaman OTK is +)
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Posts: 72
[kinda off topic about shaman otk in in reponse to verdash/]

Well, shaman otk is usually using bloodlust, I guess, mine is more relying on the stranglehorn tiger with buffs (iron dwarf, rock bitter weapon, argus defender) and windfury, so flare is also one way to go (as well as taunts), and explosive traps clear the wave of totems in case of blood lust (except if the shaman is playing the op totemic might.)

[/kinda off topic]
Edited by Neerzidaas on 1/2/2014 8:06 AM PST
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Posts: 93
if you guys nerf all the nice things like murloc warlock and mage what would the bads that need welfare/crutch decks/classes use? think ffs
Edited by mostnotweak on 1/2/2014 8:07 AM PST
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01/02/2014 08:05 AMPosted by Neerzidaas
I guess, mine is more relying on the stranglehorn tiger with buffs (iron dwarf, rock bitter weapon, argus defender) and windfury

That's what I figured +)

Just trying to figure out how ExpT played a role, I guess you were referring to 2 different OTK strategies.
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01/02/2014 08:07 AMPosted by mostnotweak
if you guys nerf all the nice things like murloc warlock and mage what would the bads that need welfare/crutch decks/classes use? think ffs


So in your opinion, it is fair that mage have a way to win one turn in witch they can
-freeze your minions + play giants and another ice block
and then with that other ice block win another turn so they can freely attack you with the giants+ pyroblast?

One ice block isn't overpowered, but two back to back ice block allow a play that is uncounterable except with either flare or 2 removals kept in hand for the giant (and the removals can take counterspell in the face, so they are not even a real solution.

01/02/2014 08:07 AMPosted by Verdash
I guess you were referring to 2 different OTK strategies.


Yes, I was
Edited by Neerzidaas on 1/2/2014 8:16 AM PST
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01/02/2014 03:45 AMPosted by Superanima
Or you could play a control druid and get rank 5+ with minimal effort.


Curious, have you played a control druid? They games are incredibly slow and the class is just boring. I couldn't think of a worse way to get to rank 5.
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Posts: 706
Immune isn't compatible with the spirit of the game. The card needs a rework. Remove Immune, and give hero something like Divine Shield after the fatal is deflected. Mage in general needs a bit of rework. All freeze spells should work like Ice Lance, where they do extra damage to those already frozen. BUT, they should do damage to Mage hero, too. That way Mage gets some of it's power back from the nerf, but they must pay the price for using it.
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01/02/2014 03:20 AMPosted by Neerzidaas
. (And please don't tell me that I have to play hunter to have flare in my deck, my hunter deck is terrible at the moment).


01/02/2014 03:43 AMPosted by Neerzidaas
and I do'nt really want to put healing cards in the deck


So basically you want to counter their iceblock without having to put in any effort yourself?
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Posts: 72
Actually, I know that healing is good agaisnt the pyroblast, but the problem is that the second ice block +giants+freeze allow him to next turn play alextraza and trade my creatures with his giants so I can't deal the 15 remaining health.

So in the situation of 2 ice block, I'd have to face at least -one molten giant (assuming the second one died from the trade, wich is unlikely)+one alextraza while the mage jsut killed my biggest threats
That's the situation I'm talking about. And there, even if I'm at 30 hp, maybe 2 hexes can save me, but probably 2 farseer healing me 3 hp both won't (indeed, they definitely won't).

The reason I said I don't need healing in that particular deck is that I won't loose enough health before the ice block to fear pyro (I'll most of the time be above 20 when the first ice block trigger). Please read teh full post before ansering like that, this is not a 100th one complaining about pyroblast, pyroblast isn't even involved.

And about the flare thing, I know it would be ideal solution against ice block, ofc, I tried a hunter deck, but could'nt manage to make it competitive against other classes.
Edited by Neerzidaas on 1/2/2014 8:37 AM PST
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01/02/2014 08:36 AMPosted by Neerzidaas
Actually, I know that healing is good agaisnt the pyroblast, but the problem is that the second ice block +giants+freeze allow him to next turn play alextraza and trade my creatures with his giants so I can't deal the 15 remaining health.


And thus he outplayed you......you dont need a counter to everything.
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Posts: 203
Maybe if they want to put a limit on Ice Block, they could add a special rule saying that when you draw Ice Block, the other is removed from your deck. This way you have the same probability to draw one but you can't play 2, and the 2nd one isn't a dead card.
That would almost be like having a 29 card deck though, not sure if it would really matter.
Edited by Vulmio on 1/2/2014 8:44 AM PST
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Posts: 72
@Shadow
he outplayed me? I never drawn him below 10 health except for triggering his first ice block (wich has to be done at some point) then he plays a freeze that prevent me any trading (unless I silence my minion, maybe) and use a SECOND ice block. That second ice block allow him to survive to the spell/weapon that I kept to finish him despite the first ice block. then he can make any advantageous trade with either flame strile+ farseer healer or attacking with his 2 molten giants + alextraza. When did I do something wrong and what could I have done to win? (having 2 hex in my hand is the only option I can think of, and I don't like that) (that's jsut an hypotetical situation, but that can still happen)

@Vulmio: that sounds great, that looks a bit like the wild groth, wich, can give a mana cristal, and once unusable can be converted into drawing cards. I really like that idea.
Edited by Neerzidaas on 1/2/2014 8:48 AM PST
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01/02/2014 03:20 AMPosted by Neerzidaas
So here's my situation. I'm relatively new th Hearthstone, but still, I can grasp some of the meta, like "we have to be able to beat otk warrior and ice block alextraza molten giant mages".

That's not really the meta. This is a trap new players will run into if they read the forums more than play. You'll see it's aggro and control decks from Warlock, Druid, Paladin, and the occasional Shaman that you have to worry about in the meta.

Warriors are a one-trick-pony abusing molten giant. It's risky play.
Mages were a one-trick-pony that got over-nerfed because they wouldn't nerf molten giant.

So you won't see much of either of these classes in the higher ranks.

You might as well build your deck around fighting priests. Stack those 4-attack minions!

@Shadow
he outplayed me?
...
@Vulmio: that sounds great, that looks a bit like the wild groth, wich, can give a mana cristal, and once unusable can be converted into drawing cards. I really like that idea.

Yep, people tend to look at the last round or 2, but by then it's usually over due to mistakes or bad luck earlier. Every round counts!

As for new ideas, just try to learn the game first before going off on wild tangents. This way you'll get better, that way you'll be bad and just be dreaming of what the game would be like "if you had it your way". Don't this the wrong way, you're saying you're new and asking for advice. There you have it.
Edited by ACrowley on 1/2/2014 8:52 AM PST
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01/02/2014 08:46 AMPosted by Neerzidaas
When did I do something wrong


Why did you have to do something wrong? Could be that his deck was simply better constructed and or he played his hand better than you play yours.

I dont get why we need to nerf cards cause your deck lost to it.
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Posts: 72
Thanks for your tips, Acrowley. (I'll remind them again every time I start building-improving a deck again, since they are useful ones) stealth minions and a lot of totems actually make those shadow words not so terrible already, and playing shaman gives me access to the lighting storm, and so I feel like this deck can contain murlocks pretty well as well. I don't meet that much druids around rank 9 (and couldn't really adapt to other higher-ranks "meta" decks wich I haven't seen, but with finals next week, I can't grind up to try and reach rank 5, yet), but I sure meet a whole lot of these mages and warrior using molten giants.
Edited by Neerzidaas on 1/2/2014 9:00 AM PST
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Posts: 72
@Shadow; as I said, that was a hypotetical situation and didn't happened in the game I tought about that. But is there even one construction of deck that can cope with the double ice block molten giant freeze thing? That is my question. I'm aware my deck isn't the best, or I'd be legendary, I'm just asking that if mages have the luck to have the needed cards in hand, any deck (but the hunter with flare) can win against them.
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Posts: 881
The problem with Iceblock is that most nerfs make the card completely worthless. Ice Barrier, a common, then becomes much more powerful than the epic Iceblock.

The only change I would be for is as follows:

Iceblock: Prevents the hero from being reduced past 1 Hitpoint this turn.

So pretend I, as a mage, am sitting at 9 health with Iceblock up. Currently if I am pyroblasted by an opposing Mage, I remain at 9 health. With the rework the Pyroblast would do 8 hitpoints of damage and leave me at 1 hitpoint remaining.

It would be a small nerf so that the opposing player doesn't have to jump through mental acrobatics trying to reduce the mage to exactly 1 hitpoint before dealing an iceblock prevented lethal but retain the core concept of what Iceblock is trying to do.

Most other nerf suggestions simply want to gut the cad and make it worthless. Many of these people, though, won't be happy until Mages are also completely gutted and made worthless (and then there are the people who won't be happy until Mages are simply deleted from the game). At any rate I'm sitting on 4 Iceblocks right now because I'm afraid that Blizzard will eventually cave in to the whiners and I'll be able to cash in on a ton of extra dust if that happens.
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Posts: 72
@Silke, actually, the change you're proposing wouldn't prevent the two ice block in a row, unless you add a clause that say that the ice block can't trigger if you were already at one health, maybe? Or do you find ok the idea of double iceblock in two consecutive turns? (I'm not for a massive nerf of the iceblock, but since it allows to play the giants, two back to ice block becaomes quite strong. To explicit my point even more, I wouldn't say there's a problem with the first Ice block, nor do I find a problem with the giants (some may disagree there, maybe they are the right ones) and so I'd say there's a problem with the second ice block (wouldn't really be gutting the card, if the nerf's effect (no matter how it would be done (if it's done)) would just prevent from playing two back to back ice block), or would it?
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