Trouble with Paladins/Warlocks. Any advice?

Posts: 9
I am having a lot of trouble with specifically Paladins and Warlocks. I have above a 50% win rate against every class except for these two. I am 0-5 Paladin and 1-7 Warlock.. Every time I fight a Warlock, it's been a Murloc Warlock, and my deck refuses to give me a Lightning Storm. As for the Paladins, I just tend to have trouble dealing with their early-game.

My current deck:
http://i.imgur.com/Zrl1V25.png?1

I am trying to focus on controlling the board early-game to then have complete dominance in the late-game. For most classes this works, but, again, not Paladins and Warlocks. There's been a few cards that I've been changing in and out of my deck, but for the most part, it's remained pretty similar to the above deck. Any suggestions on what I should drop/add?

Thanks in advance!
Edited by Nelfy on 12/26/2013 11:02 AM PST
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Posts: 51
For being legendary-less it looks decently solid. Our best cards against those decks you already run, you just have to mull for them against those matchups. I always mull for Earth Shock against Paladin and Forked/Storm against Warlock.
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Posts: 9
12/26/2013 11:28 AMPosted by Kilmor
For being legendary-less it looks decently solid. Our best cards against those decks you already run, you just have to mull for them against those matchups. I always mull for Earth Shock against Paladin and Forked/Storm against Warlock.


I actually just removed the two Mana Tide Totems from my deck in favor of two Novice Engineers. Oftentimes they sat in my hand until I had a good way to defend them, and even then would often get silenced/killed before more than 2-3 cards were drawn.In the games that I CAN defend them, they give me massive card advantage, though... However, the extra damage source on the board and immediate draw could help deal with rush decks -- the ones I have the hardest time against. Not sure how I feel about the switch. Any opinions?

Also, what Legendaries would you recommend once I begin to earn enough to get them? I've been buying the moderate cost cards first, like Earth Elemental and the Shaman spells. I'm getting to the point where I can begin to save for the really costly ones. What are some good targets?
Edited by Nelfy on 12/26/2013 11:44 AM PST
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Posts: 51
Sylvanas and Ragnaros are probably the top two Neurtal choices as they fit in almost every deck right now. Certain tech cards like Tinkmaster Overspark and Black Knight are decent too.
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Posts: 9
12/26/2013 01:02 PMPosted by Kilmor
Sylvanas and Ragnaros are probably the top two Neurtal choices as they fit in almost every deck right now. Certain tech cards like Tinkmaster Overspark and Black Knight are decent too.


Sylvanas and Ragnaros would definitely be good choices, now that you mention it. I was considering Hogger, to help me survive the mid-game a bit better?
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Posts: 937
Mana tide isn't bad by any means. Even if it only draws you one card, it's still replacing itself immediately. So anything >1 is efficient. Think of it as a novice engineer except with 1 more health, and 1 less attack that will continue to work.

I think it was a bad decision to take them out, but I wouldn't put more then 1 in my deck personally. 2x mana tide is overkill as IF it stays alive, you'll actually could get into a bad situation where you end up drawing too many cards since you'll be summoning hero power totems as well.

I think if you really want draw power/thinning power, swap both engineers out for 1x Mana Tide and 1x Far Sight (yes this card). A far sight can be quite the game changer on 5> minions. Imagine summoning an earth elemental for only 2 mana.

I actually think hogger may be a bad idea, because with sylvanas dominating the "meta" right now as a popular choice, she could very well end up taking control off hogger in some situations which would NOT bode well for you at all. (Free 2/2's will eat your totems and definitely cause you to lose the game)
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Posts: 9
Mana tide isn't bad by any means. Even if it only draws you one card, it's still replacing itself immediately. So anything >1 is efficient. Think of it as a novice engineer except with 1 more health, and 1 less attack that will continue to work.

I think it was a bad decision to take them out, but I wouldn't put more then 1 in my deck personally. 2x mana tide is overkill as IF it stays alive, you'll actually could get into a bad situation where you end up drawing too many cards since you'll be summoning hero power totems as well.


True, but it also costs one more Mana, and doesn't have any damage itself to help deal with early-game creatures.

I very rarely had any instance where I had "too much" draw. There were many times where I'd drop one, and my opponent would spend 2-3 cards to deal with it immediately, then I'd be able to drop another one shortly after, and they no longer have a method of dealing with it.

12/26/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Sykomyke
I think if you really want draw power/thinning power, swap both engineers out for 1x Mana Tide and 1x Far Sight (yes this card). A far sight can be quite the game changer on 5> minions. Imagine summoning an earth elemental for only 2 mana.


I've heard many bad things about Far Sight, but I've never actually tested it personally. Why is it that people look down on this card so much? Is it because it's basically a draw for 1 card that costs 1 card?

12/26/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Sykomyke
I actually think hogger may be a bad idea, because with sylvanas dominating the "meta" right now as a popular choice, she could very well end up taking control off hogger in some situations which would NOT bode well for you at all. (Free 2/2's will eat your totems and definitely cause you to lose the game)


What do you mean, "she could end up taking control off hogger"?
Edited by Nelfy on 12/26/2013 2:17 PM PST
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Posts: 937
Sorry, that last bit was a typo. I meant "Control of Hogger". I'm just saying there are situations where an enemy Sylvanas is on the board. The last thing you want to do is have him kill her off and then take control of you're own legendary which has an "end of turn" effect which will immediately put you at a board disadvantage.

As for Far Sight, the reason people don't like it is because it doesn't show you the next card, therefore the mana reduction is effectively "useless" on anything 2 or less mana. It only becomes efficient with anything greater then 3 mana, and generally people want their "huge" minions to be reduced in cost to play earlier. (Think turn 6 Ysera).

The problem is it's completely random on what card you'll draw, however it's purpose is the same as novice engineer, except with a boost. It thins your deck by one, and you only want to use it at a time where you have board control. It can be useful in many situations I think; but ultimately it depends on your playstyle.
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Posts: 9
12/26/2013 02:21 PMPosted by Sykomyke
Sorry, that last bit was a typo. I meant "Control of Hogger". I'm just saying there are situations where an enemy Sylvanas is on the board. The last thing you want to do is have him kill her off and then take control of you're own legendary which has an "end of turn" effect which will immediately put you at a board disadvantage.


Ah, that makes sense. Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want an enemy Hogger on the board. Then again, I do have multiple methods of silencing her, between Earth Shock and Hex. Still, though, definitely something to keep in mind.

12/26/2013 02:21 PMPosted by Sykomyke
As for Far Sight, the reason people don't like it is because it doesn't show you the next card, therefore the mana reduction is effectively "useless" on anything 2 or less mana. It only becomes efficient with anything greater then 3 mana, and generally people want their "huge" minions to be reduced in cost to play earlier. (Think turn 6 Ysera).

The problem is it's completely random on what card you'll draw, however it's purpose is the same as novice engineer, except with a boost. It thins your deck by one, and you only want to use it at a time where you have board control. It can be useful in many situations I think; but ultimately it depends on your playstyle.


Very true. I could see that coming in handy, since I play a lot of heavy, late-game creatures.
Edited by Nelfy on 12/26/2013 3:14 PM PST
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Posts: 75
Mana Tide is a late-game luxury card draw for board-control Shamans in my opinion. At least, thats exactly how I play it.

If I'm in control of the field, I'll drop my Mana Tide. I only ever run one of them, despite having two crafted. (I just keep a playset of Shaman cards as a Shaman player)

I wouldn't recommend it to Shamans that aren't looking to dominate the field. With my enhancement play style, I can turn it into a formidable minion that gives passive card draw and its amazing. In an elemental deck, it will probably be extremely lackluster.

As for Farsight...

As an Enhancement Shammy player, Farsight is kind of a pointless card. Except for the elementals and Stormwind Champion, my cards are all very cheap and buff reliant. It really seems like a card that you would want mid to late game when you've expended early game answers and you know your chances of pulling a fatty are high.
Edited by Geek on 12/26/2013 4:26 PM PST
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Posts: 12
I haven't read the other responses but at a glance your VERY light on early creatures. I highly recommend adding a few more 2 drops even basic ones like razorfen hunter will be good. But with so much aggro you MUST have some earlier board presence.

Acidic slime is good but if you muli into no other 2 drop you should always play it don't sit on it. If they get early tempo and you can't recover you lose.

Argent squire and harvest golems are generally what I get the most millage out of. I also run 2 loot/2novice engi. Loot hoarders work like a free card+weenie removal which is great value. Novice engi same thing a free card and it kills a 1 health minion, or alternatively rockbiter it to slay larger threats.

Start with a more solid curve of ~20 minions 4-6 1-2 drop's is a must in the current meta in my opinion. Fill in the other 10-12 with your removal etc. Remember you must control the board with that style of shaman deckk which means you must have answers earlier.
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Posts: 516
I'd drop the Ravenholdt and maybe a Mana Tide Totem or that lone Windfury for early game minions, either Faerie Dragons or Harvest Golem.

I'm surprised you're not running at least 1 Lava Burst, as well as having no Argent Commanders. You have those and made the choice not to run them or you just not have them?

I have almost the exact same deck except that mine is:

+2 Faerie Dragon
+2 Lava Burst
+2 Argent Commander
+2 Novice Engineer

-2 Ooze
-1 Windfury
-1 Mana Tide Totem
-2 Azure Drake
-1 Ravenholdt

I've gone back and forth on adding the 2nd Mana Tide and swapping Argents for Drakes. Tide and Drakes would give me more card draw which depending on the match I sometimes need because it's easy to empty your hand even with Overload cramping your mana, but better RNG and decision making usually covers for that.

I don't have neutral legendaries or Al'Akir or I'd be running those, bleh.
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Posts: 516
12/26/2013 05:11 PMPosted by Kharn
I haven't read the other responses but at a glance your VERY light on early creatures. I highly recommend adding a few more 2 drops even basic ones like razorfen hunter will be good. But with so much aggro you MUST have some earlier board presence.

Acidic slime is good but if you muli into no other 2 drop you should always play it don't sit on it. If they get early tempo and you can't recover you lose.

Argent squire and harvest golems are generally what I get the most millage out of. I also run 2 loot/2novice engi. Loot hoarders work like a free card+weenie removal which is great value. Novice engi same thing a free card and it kills a 1 health minion, or alternatively rockbiter it to slay larger threats.

Start with a more solid curve of ~20 minions 4-6 1-2 drop's is a must in the current meta in my opinion. Fill in the other 10-12 with your removal etc. Remember you must control the board with that style of shaman deckk which means you must have answers earlier.


You're not getting the point of his deck. His spells are his anti aggro component. He doesn't need 20+ minions when he can win off Earth Elemental alone. He can drop a creature or a few totems in the early turns and use his nukes to keep his opponents board clear until Fire or Earth Elemental show up or Unbound Elemental gets huge. That's the beauty of running this deck, tons of creature kill some of which can be thrown in your opponents' face.
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Posts: 12
Yeah, but it's obviously not working. It simply boils down to a simply fact that you can trade more favorably early with value minions. ergo squire and golem. You have to keep the board as clear as possible for the first 5 turns.

You need board presence early period. 1:1 v a murlock deck is just going to loose every time. A warlock can simply outdraw you and keep the pressure on till you are out of answers. A single harvest golem can 3:1 weenies easily, which is what his deck needs in this meta.

Earthshock is not an early aggro answer and should only be used for it's silence trading 1:1 against a first turn Murlock is just not good use of the spell.

It can still keep the core of the deck's end game strat but needs to adjust to a aggro heavy meta. This is only my opinion and this strategy adjustment has helped me with my shaman deck and unless they get a nut draw I have a pretty favorable win percentage against these decks. Also holding on to your hard removal BGH/hex/tinker for a late game rag/juraxxas becomes much more relevant as you move up in rank. Just my 2c.
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Posts: 516
Yeah point out Earth Shock and ignore Forked Lightning and Lightning Storm which are minimum 2 for 1 if not more in the case of Lightning Storm. Earth Shock also addresses the crucial role of all the pumps and Murloc synergy while removing a threat. The only spell he has that should go strictly 1 for 1 is Lightning Bolt and if it happens to remove a static buffer minion then it becomes a 1 for 1+

I don't disagree that he needs an early game, which is why I mentioned dumping the Ravenholdt because it's not a good choice at any point, and why I said ditch the Windfury because that slot would rather be another minion that can trade if need be rather than a buff for a minion that might not even be there.

His deck isn't working because he's got it clunked up with a few cards that just sit there and do nothing, and because his early game is all removal based. If we're just trying to metagame Warlock aggro and Paladin exclusively I'd drop the 2 I already mentioned plus Mana Tides for additional early minions, Faerie Dragon and Harvest Golem for both the reasons I mentioned and the reasons you did. These changes don't mean that heavy spell Shaman doesn't work because it does. Shaman isn't a good class to run 20+ minions unless you don't have all the spells. He clearly does and has his 4 Elementals to do the heavy lifting until he can drop some spells and diversify with some of the bigger bomb minions like Legendaries and Big Game Hunter. At that point more than half his deck could be treated as removal.
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Posts: 12
Truth, I think it would only take a few key replacements to make a world of difference. I'm not personally a fan of playing to the "overload" mechanic, and forked lightning is just not something I like running.

But, I think it is also more important for players to find their own style and make it work over netdecking which just leads to weak players piloting decks they don't understand nor invested their own play style into creating, but can make a good place to start to try out variations.
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Posts: 516
Well understanding comes from playing, this isn't something that differs whether you brewed your own deck or got ideas from the internet. Understanding is playing.

I'm all for good playing period, so when something is good it's worth running. Forked Lightning is just the same as Cleave for warriors which is worth running sometimes and others not, Forked Lightning gets more synergy in shaman since spellpower buffs like Totem, Drakes, Thalnos etc fit better in shaman than warrior so the degrees of separation are there.

Right now Forked Lightning is really great against aggro just as Earth Shock owns against minion buffs all over the place. I've considered running Abomination as additional AoE because of how much rush I've faced, so the notions of teching out an established deck is not only viable but a longstanding tradition from other games.

As for playstyle, I agree that it has a big factor in things. I have my normal shaman deck and one that is more dedicated to card drawing because my playstyle definitely favors dumping my hand, having to tweak my existing deck to allow for that lets the cards work in harmony with how I'm going to play them. That's a personal bit of self examination that people have to do though rather than just slapping together a deck and wondering why they're struggling with it.
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