Lets Talk About Secrets

Posts: 242
Eh, my rank is just not worth mentioning, although since you asked I am 14 atm :B
I am running Trumpish though since I don't really have the dust to make a really good secrets deck. Still need a second Kirin Tor, spellbenders, and iceblocks.
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Posts: 351
03/24/2014 08:35 PMPosted by Mike
Why does nobody state their rank with their current secret decks?


I only started to play Rank a Week ago after I took a 3 week break, but Im Rank 14 now on a winning streak Since Rank 19.

And My deck:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/34790-its-my-secret-update2-1
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Posts: 369
Hello, this is my latest idea of a Secrets deck:

http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/mage#4:2;28:1;33:1;125:2;177:2;263:2;274:1;280:2;309:2;411:2;483:1;496:1;503:1;513:1;522:2;531:2;569:1;589:2;641:2;

The idea is to use the innate synergies of the Secrets Mage (i.e. that awesome tempo you get when things get rolling) and to maximize the odds of that happening in the early game then using that early game advantage to be aggressive and end the game before you have to contend with much lategame, Basically, this is what I see as an aggro Secrets Mage.

Because Secrets are so defensive in nature, pairing them up with great aggro works very well. I used my knowledge of how Secrets decks work to make the innate synergies of a Secrets Mage that what makes it aggressive, rather than using generally aggro cards (which is an idea worth exploring, but I digress).
The general strategy is simple, gain early board advantage with your superior minions and synergy. Use those minions to inflict as much damage as possible early game while the enemy is hampered by your Secrets. Make good trades when possible and deny good trades to the enemy (SMage excels at this), use your direct damage spells wisely, either to remove appropriate enemy targets or try and save them for end game burn. That is all I can say for general play, it requires experience and skill to know when to play each secret or when to remove enemy minions or when to go for burn.

Good Things: As I've said, it really maximizes the awesome start potential all good SMages have, allowing you to put a lot of early pressure (while defending your minions with secrets) and then end the game with burn/Ragnaros/board advantage. This deck is not dead in the water in early lategame either, Sylvanas can help you regain tempo, and smart use of your very synergistic minions makes them viable later too. Overall you have good match-ups with most decks and games don't last overly long, lose or win. If the cards fall in place (which they often do), you end up having very magnificent wins, but clutch wins with Pyroblast (Iceblock :D) are also common.

Bad Things: This deck is very obviously aggressive, and if you lose board advantage and get swamped by enemy minions/blocked by powerful taunts then things are looking grim as you have no AoE. This means aggrolock is a bad match up, and that stinks a lot in this meta (not unbeatable mind you). Another problem is that you will run out of steam sooner or later (depending how aggressively you play your cards), and if your win is not more or less secured at that point the game becomes very uncertain for you (this means Priests are a pain since they can outlast this deck, fortunately they're rare).

Mulligan Strategy: Keep one secret always (I can hardly imagine a situation where you need 2 in your opening hand), absolutely always keep your Kirin Tor Mage (but not 2), drop all 4 or higher mana cards and try and keep as many 3< mana cards (Mana Wyrm, Sorcerers Apprentice and Frostbolt are preferred).

Some additional ideas:

-Considered Faceless Manipulator instead of one of the Azure Drakes (or maybe Sylvanas), but decided the draw is just too weak as is. The idea is to steal something nice from the enemy to get back into the game if losing or to win harder (2xEthereal, 2xRag...).

-I think Deathwing would work marvelously in this deck, since you will run out of steam and likely only lose one card to him and clear the enemy's board. Sadly I don't have DW yet (nor is he a high priority for me), I'd most likely replace Pyro (the two cards would compete too much) or Sylvanas for him.

Any questions or comments are welcome.
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Posts: 1,140
05/13/2014 11:21 AMPosted by MayhemInc
Any questions

I'm interested by what you're describing, but I run Safari which seems to hate HearthPwn. What's in it?
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Posts: 369
05/13/2014 09:30 PMPosted by Peripatetic
05/13/2014 11:21 AMPosted by MayhemInc
Any questions

I'm interested by what you're describing, but I run Safari which seems to hate HearthPwn. What's in it?


2x Arcane Missiles (1)
2x Mana Wyrm (1)
1x Secret Keeper (1) - testing if it works in this deck
1x Leper Gnome (1)
2x Frostbolt (2)
2x Amani Berserker (2)
2x Sorcerer's Apprentice (2)
2x Counterspell (3)
2x Spellbender (3)
1x Iceblock (3)
1x Mirror Entity (3)
2x Dalaran Mage (3)
2x Fireball (4)
2x Ethereal Arcanist (4)
1x Water Elemental (4)
2x Azure Drake (5)
1x Sylvanas Windrunner (6)
1x Raganros the Firelord (8)
1x Pyroblast (10)
Edited by MayhemInc on 5/14/2014 4:20 AM PDT
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Posts: 369
05/13/2014 09:30 PMPosted by Peripatetic
I'm interested by what you're describing, but I run Safari which seems to hate HearthPwn. What's in it?


You didn't get back to me, did you miss it? I am really interested in getting some opinions here.

This deck is now Rank 11 and since I got here pretty much on an uninterrupted win streak from rank 14 which is where I started playing I think this is my best Secrets deck yet.

That is why any suggestions or ideas would be welcome. The only one I have right now is replacing the one Leper Gnome for a Secretkeeper because she is excellent removal bait (to protect 2 drops and even Dalaran Mage), plus given right circumstances the loss in damage should be mitigated by synergy this card enjoys in this deck, her 2 HP also prevent her being pinged off. I will definitely test 2xSecretkeeper. Other than that I think the deck is pretty much rounded out (DW idea notwithstanding).

In an another topic, what new mage card would you fellow Secrets Mages like to get in Naxx? My idea was a 2/3 2 mana minion that gives +1 spell damage and has an ability to draw a card whenever you cast a Secret. Since a Secrets Mage generally can't afford too many spells, this is not OP, and non-Secret Mages can enjoy the +1HP Kobold.
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Posts: 242
Why not get an awesome secret o.o?
I personally want more stuff from the fire tree like Living Bomb and Dragon's Breath :3
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Posts: 369
05/19/2014 02:06 AMPosted by HigurashiD
Why not get an awesome secret o.o?
I personally want more stuff from the fire tree like Living Bomb and Dragon's Breath :3


I'd say we have enough Secrets, it is the support infrastructure for Secrets that needs improving. Draw being the major weakness if you ask me. But AoE and board presence could be improved as well for Secrets intensive gameplay, something that synergizes with them and does this.

But out of curiosity, what kind of spells would you make Living Bomb and Dragon's Breath in HS?

Also I suppose the new mage card has to follow the death thematic of Naxx, so I will see if I can think up a Secret related card that fits it,
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Posts: 533
05/19/2014 02:12 AMPosted by MayhemInc
But out of curiosity, what kind of spells would you make Living Bomb and Dragon's Breath in HS?
Living bomb would probably be something similar to shadowflame. Kill a minion and deal its dmg to adjacent minion. I rly wish more actual placement card like cone of cold and explosive shot would exist. It adds another dimension to the game when you have to think about where your creature should go and make cards like fairy dragon more relevant. and dragon's breath is just another fire based spell that deal dmg and has a "Disorient". There are more iconic spell to add. Im actually suprised we dont have a blink spell card since blink is so iconic to mage in WoW.

05/19/2014 02:12 AMPosted by MayhemInc
Also I suppose the new mage card has to follow the death thematic of Naxx, so I will see if I can think up a Secret related card that fits it,
Also we dont need more secret, we need more cards that interact with them.
Edited by Managarn on 5/19/2014 4:14 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,140
05/18/2014 08:37 PMPosted by MayhemInc
You didn't get back to me, did you miss it? I am really interested in getting some opinions here.

Sorry I've been swamped at work and haven't had much free time lately. I'll try and give a more in-depth overview later but here are some initial thoughts and one suggestion.

I like the more even all around approach. Simply put I’m finding that when you try and incorporate many of any classes aspects into a deck it seems to work out pretty well. I’m still not sold on spellpower within this context, but in all honesty that one or two damage can really swing a game.

I think that one key problem with the secret mage is the set up works against us. If we can get the ball rolling we become a somewhat unstoppable juggernaut but that’s just the problem. We don’t have a ton of presence on the field early game because we need some of our key peaces which are infuriatingly mid-game. As such I've been toying with an idea in my head which I've yet to play test.

I've been playing a Secret Hunter lately and I'm thinking of taking a page out of that book. The Faerie Dragon is a nightmare of epic proportions, at least when mixed with the Hunters secrets. I know it’s not that menacing, but combined with mage Secrets I think it could have some real legs, could build temp in our favor quickly, and force plays into our hands; early fielding if you play Mirror Image, AoE removal with counterspell. Also it makes a clear line of what secret to play and it's never an agonizing choice between CS or SB. As your also incorporating spell power in your build you could become even more removal focused and keep them on the board.

I'm interested in your reasoning for removing Kirin Tor Mage and Polymorph?

What I’d love to see in Naxx for the Mage would be a piece of equipment as weapons don’t really suit us. So on my wish list would be this

Grimorie of Power
1: +1 Spell Power each turn — Spell Power instead of Durability.
2: Deathrattle, Arcane Backlash — if the Girmorie is destroyed deal X damage where X is equal to Spell Power charges.

I think it fits the flavor. We know Kel-thazud was all about taboo magics and thats the kind of thing he’d have in Naxx. I added the deathrattle as most of the cards seem to have some form of it right now. Mages I think could really benefit from a more resilient form of spell power.
Edited by Peripatetic on 5/21/2014 9:30 PM PDT
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Posts: 369
05/21/2014 09:13 PMPosted by Peripatetic
I'm interested in your reasoning for removing Kirin Tor Mage and Polymorph?


Oh I run Kirin Tors ofc, they are crucial in having strong early game tempo. I just failed and called them Dalaran Mages (but you can still see what I mean by mana cost). My reasoning for cutting Poly is that the game is not supposed to last long enough for it to become needed, either I win before Fireballs become ineffective removal or the game is probably lost anyway. It is the same reason why I cut AoE. either I win fast (which is what the deck is geared for) or the game is toss-up anyway. Playing a more conventional Secrets deck with Poly and AoEs I noticed that overly long games generally don't go my way anyway, that is one of the reasons for the creation of a fast Secrets deck like this.

EDIT: I also like the idea of Fairy Dragons. I've considered them before but I've never considered the way they force enemy plays (your Secrets hunter probably gets off superb Snipes). Definitely an idea you should explore.
Edited by MayhemInc on 5/22/2014 5:19 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,140
Humm I always play for the long game I find that It often goes my way when it draws out slow. I do however need to get back to testing my Mage Secret deck, it's been much neglected lately. Granted I've neglected the game all together due of my lack of time.

Oddly I don't use snipe in my Hunter Control deck. Take a look if you like.
http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=36216/bravery

It's heavily removal biased and since everyone thinks your running UTH the conditions for the removal are much more manageable. It's a beautiful thing watching your opponent play right into your hands, when they realize what's going on it's far to late.

I might look into a burn control deck with the Mage as well as try out my current build with a few modifications. I don't think the Mage Burn Control would work as well due to the lack of a dreaded combination that forces the aggro to play nice.
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Posts: 1,140
Okay after burning 25 to 20 with my Warrior Control (to get the Black Temple card backs) I started playing ranked with my Mage for the first time.

First of all Faerie Dragons are an excellent addition. Due to the nature of playing removal with burn they are a serious problem and prove of higher threat than the potential of a Mana Wyrm. Since they can’t be targeted they seriously limit the speed of Lock rush decks. They also force early trade which limits their tempo. It also gives you that one additional turn to start getting the secrets rolling. I’ve played both with the coin and without it and while with the coin is preferable without is as viable.

I’m 4/1 so far the four wins were against locks — 3 Zoo 1 Hand. The loss oddly enough was against a priest. Unless things have changed greatly in the community I was playing a new player who had the right illogical answer. Since I was able to spin the game out I got double mind controlled on Antonidas and Ragnaros.

Obviously this is just preliminary testing right now but so far so good. I’m sure this will get more difficult as I go up further but I’m also relearning my own deck.

Mayheminc how's Sylvanas Windrunner playing out? I like having Ragnaros but he is more often than not a win more option than a savior or closer. I'm looking to lower the RNG of my deck and while he is a beast he's not reliable. Sylvanas is a better Faceless Manipulator; free kill, removal, and field all in one turn.
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Posts: 369
05/26/2014 12:58 PMPosted by Peripatetic
First of all Faerie Dragons are an excellent addition. Due to the nature of playing removal with burn they are a serious problem and prove of higher threat than the potential of a Mana Wyrm. Since they can’t be targeted they seriously limit the speed of Lock rush decks. They also force early trade which limits their tempo. It also gives you that one additional turn to start getting the secrets rolling. I’ve played both with the coin and without it and while with the coin is preferable without is as viable


What did you take out to put them in? The Wyrms or something else?

05/26/2014 12:58 PMPosted by Peripatetic
m 4/1 so far the four wins were against locks — 3 Zoo 1 Hand. The loss oddly enough was against a priest. Unless things have changed greatly in the community I was playing a new player who had the right illogical answer. Since I was able to spin the game out I got double mind controlled on Antonidas and Ragnaros.


Odd that you ran into so optimized decks (talking about the 'locks) so early in Ranked.

05/26/2014 12:58 PMPosted by Peripatetic
Mayheminc how's Sylvanas Windrunner playing out? I like having Ragnaros but he is more often than not a win more option than a savior or closer. I'm looking to lower the RNG of my deck and while he is a beast he's not reliable. Sylvanas is a better Faceless Manipulator; free kill, removal, and field all in one turn.


In my Secrets deck Sylvanas often doesn't pay off to the fullest extent because I am either ahead so she just slows the enemy down a little bit, or their advantage is so huge they just ignore Sylvanas and go for the kill. She would do better in a slower deck like yours, allowing you to play her when the enemy has a strong board yet when you are not in a risky situation because your deck is not as all out as mine. She does tend to draw out some premium removal so I would not lose Rag because she makes playing Rag safer. In general I would not lose Rag for Sylvanas in a Secrets deck.

In short she works better the slower your deck is and she tends to slow down the enemy (as they need to work around her ability) but since she is not an actual taunt playing her is not as effective as a real taunt if you are at lower health.
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Posts: 1,140
05/26/2014 06:03 PMPosted by MayhemInc
What did you take out to put them in? The Wyrms or something else?

I dropped the Sorcerers Apprentices. I know they have great potential but Faerie’s are as powerful and a lot harder to get rid of.

05/26/2014 06:03 PMPosted by MayhemInc
Odd that you ran into so optimized decks (talking about the 'locks) so early in Ranked.

As far as the Lock decks go they probably weren’t optimized and were newbies creating a bad version of a winning deck. Who knows I’m taking a lot of this with a grain of salt. I'm sure there will be better players with each rank and I'll need to step up my game. I made too many mental mistakes. Mistakes that will cost me later on.

05/26/2014 06:03 PMPosted by MayhemInc
In short she works better the slower your deck is and she tends to slow down the enemy (as they need to work around her ability) but since she is not an actual taunt playing her is not as effective as a real taunt if you are at lower health.

Humm I'll have to think on it as I'd have to craft her and I'm short on dust. Ragnaros is fine for now but I'm starting to think that despite how powerful he can be in most situations he's far to random. I'll have to try a few rounds with Ysera and see if that's more to my liking.
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Posts: 80
All secrets except ice block sucks.
I have no iceblock lready,so i don't use this useless sh it
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Posts: 369
05/28/2014 12:15 AMPosted by Pavel
All secrets except ice block sucks.
I have no iceblock lready,so i don't use this useless sh it


Thanks for your knowledgeable input.

Anyhow the new card, it is exactly what I hoped it would be, something with Secrets synergy that gives card draw, or in this case card generation which is arguably even better. I love it to bits and I can't wait to try it out. It might even be the dawn of a mainstream Secrets mage,

How do you other Secret players like it? Or why you don't like it or what you would want instead...
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Posts: 1,140
Wow!

1: Mana Wyrm
2: Coin, Kirin Tor Mage

That just got a hell of a lot scarier. Just imagine the speed behind that. If they killed the Kirin Tor you can simply field again the next turn adding a stronger presence to the board while ramping the Mana Wyrm. Killing the Wyrm isn't a better option either. This has potential I think.
Edited by Peripatetic on 5/29/2014 9:47 PM PDT
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Posts: 157
05/29/2014 02:58 PMPosted by MayhemInc

Anyhow the new card, it is exactly what I hoped it would be, something with Secrets synergy that gives card draw, or in this case card generation which is arguably even better. I love it to bits and I can't wait to try it out. It might even be the dawn of a mainstream Secrets mage,

How do you other Secret players like it? Or why you don't like it or what you would want instead...


Honestly, I don't think it has much synergy, since it's prone to return frogs or sheep to your hand, and, if you run spell bender, there's a decent chance you'll get a couple of zero mana 1/3 minions returned.

I know it doesn't really keep with the general death theme, but I anticipate eventually having something like:

Anti-magic Field
Spell
3 mana
Secret: When your opponent plays a minion, it enters the battlefield silenced.


Although it looks like a 3 mana, uncontrolled silence, just think... no charges, battlecries, deathrattles or specials... it breaks gimmicky combos! Alextrasza would be a 9 mana 8/8. If someone played Deathwing to wipe your board, they'd just lose. Also, it would complement Mirror Entity really well since Mirrored Entities don't take advantage of battlecries and charge anyway, so they will at least have parity with their copied counterparts. It would be somewhat risky since it would silence Ancient Watchers and Injured Blademasters would come out uninjured, but large potential benefits are balanced out by large potential drawbacks.

Thoughts?
Edited by cheem on 5/30/2014 1:58 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,140
05/30/2014 01:57 AMPosted by cheem
Honestly, I don't think it has much synergy, since it's prone to return frogs or sheep to your hand, and, if you run spell bender, there's a decent chance you'll get a couple of zero mana 1/3 minions returned.

Don't you expect a secret player to prepare for that eventuality. Only a foolish player would play a poor combination like Duplicate and Spellbender, or Spellbender and Counterspell. You have to learn how to play them in anticipation of the play.

I know many people dismiss them because you can play around them, thats all very well in a vacuum but without player interaction it's a poor representation.

It has possibilities and like all Secrets there is a learning curve in play anticipation and usage.
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