Used AntiGrav1ty's Tier List = 0:3 on Pally

Posts: 54
Found here - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AifXEOqTcGcLdFVvWk1GRjVJTHJUaTVLcGViR1RRTFE&gid=7

To be honest I didn't have much of a good pick. My Arena draft was -

2x Acidic Swamp Ooze
1x Argent Protector
1x Hand of Protection
1x Hammer of Wrath
1x Consecration
1x Loot Hoarder
2x Gnomish Inventor
1x Frost Elemental
1x Abusive Sergeant
1x Youthful Brewmaster
1x Wolfrider
1x Razorfen Hunter
1x Dragonling Mechanic
1x Sunfury Protector
1x Wild Pyromancer (Bad pick due to having only 3 spells, probably)
1x Avenging Wrath
1x Dire Wolf Alpha
Don't remember the rest. I really should take a screenshot of each and every one of my Arena Draft Screens.

Not sure if it was my incompetence, bad draw or overall bad draft on the arena, or all three of them. I also never even drew my Hammer of Wrath or Consecration throughout all of my 3 games.

The only mistakes I made was holding back my minions early game so I could combo them as I had most with battle cry's such as charge and give adjacent minions taunt.

On my last game against a Shaman, he pulled out a double Dust Devil and I had no way to deal with it until turn 3, so he had free reign of 12 damage on me, woop-dee-doo.

Don't get me wrong, the tier list is good, maybe I am just bad at the game, although I have been playing for like 5 months now. This has happened with or without using a tier list for arena, as I have went 0:3 quite often. I've heard the first match sets you up against a random opponent than that of a ladder type feel as the arena should be, like in Gladiator, the opponents get better and better as you win more battles. I think my best Arena run was 5:3. ¬.¬

It feels like I truly understand why a lot of people are complaining this game is too RNG, especially on the card draws, it can contribute a lot to either you winning or losing, that and Arena is random anyway, so I guess I shouldn't take it so seriously, as I think it is a game mode designed for fun. There's also the deciding factor of how good the player actually is so that percentage should also be taken into account.

What's your opinion on the AntiGrav1ty's Arena Draft Tier, RNG of Arena and RNG of overall card draw?
Edited by OverDoseDx on 1/22/2014 5:58 PM PST
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Posts: 1,542
Tier lists can only go so far. I've done much better since I stopped using them - and for the record I referenced the exact same list.

It's important to note that it's AntiGravity's list; suited to *his* playstyle.

It's also more than a month out of date, now; some cards have changed since then, some rather drastically.

Tier lists also don't take into account the rest of your deck, your current/expected mana curve, how many of a given spell or minion you already have, etc. etc.

The takeaway: tier lists are useful tools, but the most important tool is your own rational decision-making, on a sound base of experience with, and knowledge of, the class you're playing, and the game as a whole.
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Posts: 54
01/22/2014 05:55 PMPosted by WoobMonkey

Tier lists also don't take into account the rest of your deck, your current/expected mana curve, how many of a given spell or minion you already have, etc. etc.

The takeaway: tier lists are useful tools, but the most important tool is your own rational decision-making, on a sound base of experience with, and knowledge of, the class you're playing, and the game as a whole.


This is exactly what I was thinking by the time my Arena run horribly finished. This was my first time using a tier list so I followed every single card I had that matched the tier list. You learn from experience I guess. I will remember this for next time!

Regarding how outdated the list is,I didn't realize it was a month out of date. There goes the reliability I guess. I want to find Trump's up to date Arena Draft Tier List.

So far I've only found this - http://ihearthu.com/trumps-arena-card-rankings/

But it only contains common and basic cards.

Also just found this, seems to be put up more neatly - http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=513

So you can guess why I had to resort to AntiGrav1ity's Arena Tier List.

Also this seems pretty cool. Trumps and AntiGrav1ity's Fusion Tier List - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AiAW3QWAabH-dFl2NmR5MnQxODZJbGpreENiUzE5bnc&toomany=true
Edited by OverDoseDx on 1/22/2014 6:07 PM PST
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Posts: 1,542
The best advice I think that any player should take to heart is:

STOP. NETDECKING.

It will only get in the way of your learing to play in a way that suits your own style.

You are endowed with the same rational faculty that Trump, Kripp, eK0p, Hafu, or whatever streamer-of-the-moment has.

The difference between them and you (not meant personally) is that they USE it, and aren't slaves to *your* playstyle.

In arena, the only Hero that matters is YOU.
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Posts: 74
01/22/2014 06:10 PMPosted by WoobMonkey
The best advice I think that any player should take to heart is:

STOP. NETDECKING.

It will only get in the way of your learing to play in a way that suits your own style.

You are endowed with the same rational faculty that Trump, Kripp, eK0p, Hafu, or whatever streamer-of-the-moment has.

The difference between them and you (not meant personally) is that they USE it, and aren't slaves to *your* playstyle.

In arena, the only Hero that matters is YOU.


Good, someone else actually agrees on this. I have to hold myself back from commenting every time I see someone here ask for help and people telling them to go watch streams or look up tier lists.
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Posts: 822
I used that tier list and I think it helped me out.
But you can't 100% follow a tier list.
If on the tier list Dark Iron Dwarf is higher than Knife Juggler but you already got 10 drops of 4 mana and 0 drops of Knife Juggler than the right decision is Knife Juggler. This cannot be written into a tier list so a tier list is only useful for a general idea about card evaluation. You cannot 100% follow a tier list.

A tier list is useful if you get for example a Yeti + Violent Teacher to pick from, 2 strong 4 drops but you don't know which one to pick? Go take a peak at the tier list, it places Yeti higher so you got with the yeti. In those cases a tier list is useful for giving that deciding factor, but a tier list cannot take into account synergy between cards (I love imp master + cult master) and it cannot take into account your mana curve.

And about my opinion about his tier list, its a good tier list in my opinion. It isn't up to date to the latest patch so some things are slightly wrong but in general its a solid tier list. Gives a good general insight about the good and bad cards.

The RNG of Arena and Card Drawn is high if you look at a single run. But if you look at the average of 5-10 runs it basically indicates your skill level.

Not trying to be offensive right now, but if you go 0:3 quite often as you stated in your post than the problem is your drafting / decision making. Since with 99% of the drafts you can at least get 2 wins.
I would advice you to post your entire draft on here, so we can see the choices you made so we can comment on them and give you a bit of advice.
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Posts: 822
I am taking a look at your draft right now and not trying to be offensive but its bad because you followed the tier list. You only have early drops.
The only creature that is suited for late game is Frost Elemental a solid 6 drop. Besides that you have 3 drops for 4 mana, of which 2 are gnomishes which are used for card drawn and therefore lack combat stats. No 5 drops and nothing higher that 6.
Basically you got no mid game-lategame power in your draft, because of following the tier list you ended up with a ton of 2-3 drops.
So this proves my point that a tier list doesn't take into account your mana curve and therefore you cannot solely base your picks on a tier list. Because you end up with 30 cards for 2 mana which just doesn't work.
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Posts: 54
01/22/2014 06:29 PMPosted by Gradefor
I am taking a look at your draft right now and not trying to be offensive but its bad because you followed the tier list. You only have early drops.
The only creature that is suited for late game is Frost Elemental a solid 6 drop. Besides that you have 3 drops for 4 mana, of which 2 are gnomishes which are used for card drawn and therefore lack combat stats. No 5 drops and nothing higher that 6.
Basically you got no mid game-lategame power in your draft, because of following the tier list you ended up with a ton of 2-3 drops.
So this proves my point that a tier list doesn't take into account your mana curve and therefore you cannot solely base your picks on a tier list. Because you end up with 30 cards for 2 mana which just doesn't work.


I was thinking the same thing. I had way too many 2 drops and I didn't think about it enough so I ignored it. Tbh I think it was because I haven't played Hearthstone in like 3 weeks since I got bored, and decided to come back and got kind of rusty, I still don't know what the perfect mana curve is. It's something like a mountain, going up and then down. A lot of 2 is good but some late game punch is essential as well, removal is always good, no more than 4 I believe. I guess it's different for every class and what kind of synergy you can get as the 3 cards you get to choose from are always random.
Edited by OverDoseDx on 1/22/2014 6:46 PM PST
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Posts: 644
I haven't gone 0-3 in a while, but I've also never done better than 3-3 - never.

I have a thread on here with at least 7 drafts, and I've gotten valuable feedback and gotten better at drafting. Getting better at playing is much slower and harder.

The tier lists have definitely helped me - I used to think that Mogushan Warden was a good card, and that I shouldn't let any one mana cost slot of card get higher than the second-highest cost, and silly things like that.

People are right that the tier list isn't enough, and it's perfectly okay - even good - to have differing opinions on particular cards. Example, I really like Summoning Portal for Warlock - every game I got it out last run, I won that game. If you drop it on Turn 8 or later you can often drop just as many creatures as you could have dropped without it, staying neutral on tempo and giving big wins every round after. And if you drop it with other creatures in a tight match, it doesn't always die right away.

If you want to get better at drafting, write down all three picks you are offered when you're offered them - or take screenshots or whatev - and post your choices. Being a better drafter has bumped me from averaging 0.5 wins a run - really - to averaging 2 wins a run or so. (I've had some ok Arena hands but essentially never had a good Arena one, but never mind)

Getting better at playing is harder. I'm trying to watch streams of good players a little now when I can. It's hard to find time for that.

Edit - also, yes, too many 2s. Regarding curve, A rule of thumb I find is to have no fewer than about five, good 2-drops and 5ish 1 and/or 3 drops as well. That's a third of your board. And that does not count low-cost cards that are just for card draw, silence, buff spells, etc (although removal spells count). Until recently, I'd see five 2-cost cards and think I was done - not at all true.

However, 20 2 and 3-cost cards might be overkill .. on the other hand, you can make decks like that that are quite successful. The heavier your deck is weighted towards low drops, the more card draw you need. Otherwise you end up not spending some / most of your mana in late game.
Edited by ughbog on 1/22/2014 7:04 PM PST
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Posts: 1,072
Tier lists are like using a list of components to build a race car and expecting it to make you a pro racecar driver.

Drafting matters very little if you can't play the cards. I can't tell you how many times I've watched someone streaming draft what they called it a trash deck and then took it to 10+.

By the time you are good enough to play the cards, you won't even need a tier list.

I continually see people do dumb things in drafts...like draft a bunch of 1 and 2 drops and then draft Pyromancer and Abom along with them.
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Posts: 6
What I'd like to pinpoint here aswell, in addition to the good tips above (using tier lists only as guidelines, thinking about deck balance aswell and adapting to your own playstyle), is that the early game is very very important.

You can't hold back for a few rounds, waiting for "the best combo". You said that was your only mistake, but that's a kinda big one, specially if you have an "early deck". If you do, you are usually too far behind already and you'll lose.
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Posts: 423
01/22/2014 05:47 PMPosted by OverDoseDx
The only mistakes I made was holding back my minions early game so I could combo them as I had most with battle cry's such as charge and give adjacent minions taunt.


This is actually quite a big mistake. If your opponent is able to keep up his tempo (=play cards to use his mana every turn), your holding back in the early game usually snowballs into you losing unless you get lucky. Maintaining tempo is more important than getting to use the battlecry of an Argent Protector or a Shattered Sun Cleric. If your opponent opens with Coin + 3/2 and your only play on turn 2 would be to make a Hero Power 1/1 or play a Argent Protector, play the Protector.

Also, I think watching good streamers is beneficial even though they would have their own playstyle. You'll still probably pick up new thoughts and ideas from those videos. Why try to figure out everything by yourself when you can get a head start by learning from good players? After that, it's up to you to adapt the lessons learned to your own play.
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01/23/2014 02:07 AMPosted by aajiix
The only mistakes I made was holding back my minions early game so I could combo them as I had most with battle cry's such as charge and give adjacent minions taunt.


This is actually quite a big mistake. If your opponent is able to keep up his tempo (=play cards to use his mana every turn), your holding back in the early game usually snowballs into you losing unless you get lucky. Maintaining tempo is more important than getting to use the battlecry of an Argent Protector or a Shattered Sun Cleric. If your opponent opens with Coin + 3/2 and your only play on turn 2 would be to make a Hero Power 1/1 or play a Argent Protector, play the Protector.

Also, I think watching good streamers is beneficial even though they would have their own playstyle. You'll still probably pick up new thoughts and ideas from those videos. Why try to figure out everything by yourself when you can get a head start by learning from good players? After that, it's up to you to adapt the lessons learned to your own play.


Correct. This is probably the most common new player error. "I can't play shattered sun cleric on an empty board!". Well, if your opponent already has board control and the tempo advantage is his that battlecry means nothing. +1/1 to nothing is still nothing. Play the minion.
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Posts: 439
01/22/2014 05:47 PMPosted by OverDoseDx
The only mistakes I made was holding back my minions early game so I could combo them


Most creatures are okay to play as-is. There is almost no case where you hold them back as you simply waste your turns and get out tempo.
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Posts: 286
Arena is 50% luck due to the limited copies being removed, even if you drafted a deck with 4 True Silver Champions but you fought against a dude with like 10 Fireballs you're still dead. With that said, of the remaining 50% playing skill is a much bigger factor than the deck, anybody can pick out the "best minion" out of 3 cards but really what matters is how good you are at playing. If you watch Value town they had Kripp, Trump build a sem-decent warlock deck and Chanman piloted to a pathetic finish...Trump estimated he'd get 8 wins and Chaman got like 1. So really IMHO it depends how good you are in HS so IMHO you should practice on contructed a bit before you go on arena.

I can attest to this, I drafted Pally deck before that had 5 TSCs to just 2 wins when I was just starting out, now I had an absolute garbage Mage draft with just 1 flame strike, 1 frost bolt (or whatever that 3 damage spell is), and no creature past 5 and still managed to get 5 wins before I got stressed out at the lameness off my deck and just retired.
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Posts: 14
01/22/2014 06:10 PMPosted by WoobMonkey
The best advice I think that any player should take to heart is:

STOP. NETDECKING.

It will only get in the way of your learing to play in a way that suits your own style.

You are endowed with the same rational faculty that Trump, Kripp, eK0p, Hafu, or whatever streamer-of-the-moment has.


Not really, no. More importantly you don't have the hundreds of hours of experience with the game it takes to be able to formulate accurate judgements.

I use this tier list every time I draft and get far better results than I did before.

Curve, synergies, all that stuff is important sure, but I would never let that change a pick more than one step or so. Neat combos are a trap. Just play the best cards each turn and that will be more consistent. And having end game cards matters less if your deck is aggressive enough and you have a good hero ability.
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Posts: 14
I am very new to the game. My first two drafts I went 5-3 then I decided to follow a tier list and went
3-3. That is the extent of my arena so far. I honestly think the best way to learn is keep trying arena if you do constructed I find most people already have way better cards than me. Arena is a more level playing field in my opinion. Also watch what your apponents are doing when they are dominating you and try and learn from their strategies. I think my biggest mistake so far was not planning ahead a few turns to use my mana to its best extent. Also a lot of the game is luck and RNG which is the only what makes it fun for me. Which is why I can't stand constructed! http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11836983785 this was my best arena experience so far and I lost! It is also about having a good attitude about things! Good luck and don't give up on arena!

Eternity
Edited by Eternity on 2/22/2014 10:02 AM PST
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Posts: 1
It s funny how u complain about the tier list!! But the most cards u have are average or below!!! The next time u pick, u should follow the tierlist before u complain!!!!!!

I am using his tierlist when i want to play safe!! had a few 12 win runs since then. Sometimes u think a card is great, but it is actually really bad in the arena. So u can pay for the arena to play a lot and find out. Or just use the tierlist and play a lot for free since u win much more. Of course u will have bad stats like 3:3 or 5:3 sometimes but that is usually when u have bad choices or really good opponents!
Edited by Heidelberg on 4/16/2014 4:54 AM PDT
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Posts: 1,040
Just look at that list, first line. Baron Gedon which is a pretty good Paladin card is at bottom legend after !@#$ legend for paladin like king mukla.

Topic present ur choices not just the cards u got if u want any real help.
Just that u write "only mistake I" if u go 0.3 u do more then 1 mistake unless u got the absolute worst deck ever and often than u have that deck because of ur picks before hand.
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Posts: 2
I always used to get between 0 and 3 wins in arena and since using that exact tier list you mentioned I got my first 7 wins and got my gold back and then got 7 wins again straight away, the arena after that I hit 11 wins (this was about a week or so ago) and I'm pretty much hitting between 5 and 10 wins in every arena since then. Yesterday I hit 10 wins and as I'm typing this I'm on 5 win 1 loss (1 loss vs the luckiest shaman alive QQ).

I am still pretty new to hearthstone but that tier list has seemed to help me an awful lot. What you have to remember is you can't pick a card JUST because it is ranked higher than the other 2 cards you can choose from. You have to take into consideration what your mana curve is like, if you have a lot of removal and not enough minions or the other way round, make sure you have card draw and you must be making your deck around a particular playstyle. Of course you can't just say well hmm I'll play a rush deck this time and try to create a deck to suit that, I would suggest using the tier list completely until card 10-15 then you must create the rest of the deck to suit whatever deck type you can do, such as control and agro etc.

I see the tier list as just a basic guideline to see how good particular cards are for arena but you shouldn't follow it down to a tee.
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