Druids are everywhere. But no complaints?

Posts: 86
Alright so unless you are an arena player or living under a mountain giant, you will have noticed that Druids are the most played class in constructed. But strangely enough there are barely any whine threads going on complaining about it which is highly unusual considering it was almost a daily routine for other FOTM classes.

Well allow me to start this delayed trend by making a statement:

Druids are Overpowered...

but it is not as apparent as with other classes.

The main reason for this is that other classes dominated usually had one single card that was way more noticeable. Blood Imp always made sure that the warlocks minions survived the AOE. The fiery red color of Pyroblast was always the last thing you would see in a duel.

Druids have no cards like that, rather I would say that the problem is that too many of their cards are individually better than the cards of other classes of equivalent cost. A lot of this also comes with the versatility of the "choose one" mechanic of druids. Now I get that Druids was supposed to be Jacks of all trades afterall. However it seems to me that Blizzard forgot the "master of none" part that is usually followed to balance that kind of design. So here are some of the cards that I would suggest should have a look.

Wraith: This one is easy because there is 2 cards of same value that it can be compared to. The first is demonfire the warlock card. Wraith's first effect deals 3 damage to a minion where as demonfire only deals 2 damage even through both cards have a secondary effect. The second card to compare is shiv, which is exactly the same as Wraith second effect, even through shiv doesn't have any second effect. And no, the fact that shiv can be cast on heroes is actually completely neglectable.

Swipe: The card of comparison here is the paladin consecration the “basic” 4 cost AOE. Now the first alarm sign should be that consecration will only do more damage than Swipe if there are 3 minions or more on the field (assuming no overkill). But the real problem is the damage distribution of Swipe is extremely favorable and very often matches the exact lineup of minions on the opponents field. You are more likely to see some 1 HP minions and 1 high HP than having several 2 HP minions. Its high damage on primary target also allows it to be used as single target which, while not that effective is possible to gain an edge.

Keeper of the groove: Looking at the usual “stat price” of silence, this one is actually on point to an extend. It's stats is actually slightly lower but it is mostly paid in attack, which is better than paying it in health which is typical for silence minions. However that is just for the silence. Looking at it's damage effect through, it is actually ridiculously overpowered. Now take note that this is mostly because other cards that have a “deal damage effect” pay ALOT of stats for that. A comparison would be stormpike commando, which have the reverse stats for same effect even through he doesn't have a secondary effect and cost 1 more.

Conclussion: I can't say that either of these cards are a problemcard, because none of them are that overpowered. The problem is that druids as a whole have too many cards that are just a little over the top. Now as to what I would see changed, it is tough. Wraith doesn't have much that can be adjusted before it becomes a really bad card. Keeper of the Groove is likevise through losing one health could do it. Swipe on the other hand is easy. I would honestly see that Swipe only dealt 3 damage to it's primary target and I think that would be a good change for a start.

So I should probably wrap this up. If you have made it this far then it hopefully means that my post wasn't too whiny. If you have other ideas then leave a suggestion. Just please leave it constructive so this doesn't end up looking like the other classforums whinefests.
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Posts: 249
Assuming all these listed cards are too powerful as you say, there would still be no evidence that druids as a class are overpowered. If Blizzard releases data showing that druids win too much, then that would be supportive of this conclusion. Blizzard has not done this, nor have they seen fit to change druids for a while, which I take as a powerful indication that the general consensus is correct; druids are in a good place right now.

But I'll examine your notes anyway. The first thing you need to realize is that class cards are balanced around the class itself, not everything in general. For example, the mage Fireball deals six damage for four mana while the druid's Starfall may deal five for five mana, only to a minion. This does not make Starfall underpowered or Fireball overpowered, it just means they are adjusted for everything a class has at their disposal.

So that argument that certain class cards should be changed based on their stats is fundamentally flawed and just does not work at all. Like I said, only statistics proving druids win more often than they should would be valid evidence that something needs to change.

Wrath: Wraith is a type of ghost, by the way. You compare Wrath to Shiv, a good comparison, and also to Demonfire, a less good comparison. Compare it to Frostbolt instead. I'm not sure what your complaint is with this spell, so I'll simply say that Wrath is not too strong at all, it's just a good card that is used for control less effectively than a Frostbolt.

Swipe: This spell is very good, and constitutes an important half of druid AOE, the other half being Starfall. it should not be changed because there is no reason for it to be. You haven't presented a reason beyond saying you think it's too strong, and making game design changes based on hunches is a bad way to go. Blizzard evidently thinks nothing is wrong with Swipe, so Ill agree with them and all their data.

Keeper of the Grove: Same thing as above, and personally, I have never found this card to be too strong. It has a good Battlecry and is a small-to-medium minion. It's effect is never so dramatic that it has won me the game. Like all balanced abilities, it has to be used intelligently to be effective.

No, you have not been whiny, but I do believe the mistake you've made here is presenting this as an opinion. The only reason to change any of this would be facts, and there aren't any saying druids need to be changed.
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Posts: 86
Okay allow me to repeat myself then.

I don't have much of an individual problem with any of these cards. I do have a problem with facing druid number 5 in a row. It gets very repetitive. Looking around here it also seems that it is what other people are seeing as well through they don't seem to be complaining as much.

So what I tried to was to pinpoint the reason. As already stated there aren't really any druid card that are overpowered per say but they have at least 3 or 4 cards that are "quite strong" and that is probably what is pushing this. One by one these cards would be fine. Druids having all of them through is what becomes a problem.

I presented this as an opinion because trying to present any balance discussion as fact is ridiculous. Blizzard is the only sitting with the stats. Speaking of stats btw, they are useless too. MMR balances everything out at about 50% which means that Blizzard would need to use their standard math alterations to calculate player skill out. At which point a ton of internet "math experts" would step up claiming it is not "real stats".
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Posts: 192
Think about the current meta.. Druid is by far the class that stands the best chance vs all the mindless facesmashing which seems ever so popular atm...

I have to say I rarely run into to many druids.. Its mostly facerap!ing warriors and huntards together with the daily mix of aggro paladins, and below that every other class / spec you can think of.

Is druid overpowered? absolutly not.. Druid is ever so fragile as any other class if you cant draw the right cards at the right time or the board gets flooded etc.. and no aoe in hand or luck drawing it..

Most druid cards offer options which is good.. But its always a trade off card draw or removal.. silence or 2 dmg, taunt or charge heal or draw and so on..

Druid and paladin seems to be in a good spot right now.. Where as all other classes seems to lack options or strong class cards or forced into gimmicky strategies..
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Posts: 3,453
I think its 2 fold. The main complaint is "pay to win" and Druid used to be the class which had the most Legendary's cause there style had the most synergy being late game and ramping to bring out the high costing Legendary's. Druid was just a buy stander in this complaint.

The main reason why I think there are minimal complaints against Druid is that for them to win they have to use minions and trade up and down and whatever you have to do and this was their main strategy. They don't just hit to the face like Hunter or Mage, no Mind Control or Weapon direct damage and our main hard removal spell is not being used because it gives the opponent to much card advantage. They are very versatile but seem to be in a good place as many decks can still go toe to toe and come out with a win against Druid. As mentioned earlier the game play is engaging since board control matters.

However, if a the top 1-10 Legendary players main Druid there will be an outcry to nerf the class.

Just my 3 cents. I for one enjoy playing Druid the most and almost all my decks created are some Druid variant or another.

Through my experience the last month, making a calculated guess I would say that I have been matched up against other Druid players roughly 1 in every 5 games and it usually is not a mirror match.

Cheers,
CC-
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Posts: 59
I will go ahead and say that Druids are the class that simply are the most difficult for me to fight(as a Paladin who refuses to use equality and any 'cheap' equality combos, I actually have no spell damage in my deck at all).

I almost never win against one unless they leave themself open for a lucky charge play. If I try to take them slow I will always lose late game because of the ancient of lore being impossible to fight efficently(as he draws 2 cards, I will be 2 cards behind even if I take the 5-5 with a minion, which is difficult). And the large amount of effects mean that I will always run out of silence(as a paladin can only have 4 silences, all of which are tied to a minion)

I won't call them op and unlike Priests and hunters they dont need to get 'nerfed', but there is just something about them that makes them extremely difficult to fight with a control based deck.

My assumption is the large amount of beefy minions combined with the large removal.

For removal they have:

Wrath: 3 on 1 or 1 on 1 with 1 card.

Swipe:4 on 1 with 1 on all others.

Starfall: 5 on 1 or 2 on all

(idk what this one is named): 5 on 1 and draw a card.

Playing one medium sized minion at 5 mana will just have it be starfalled(much like assasination).

But you also cant play 3 small minions as the will get starfalled as well, much like concration.

Playing 1 medium and 2 or 3 small ones(which is normally the anti priest strat for me) doesnt work because swipe(which is low enough cost that at 8 mana you can throw out two, which kills just about any combinination of units).

Druids leave me wondering what I should play against them, and I am actually going to restructure my deck for that, because at rank 10/11 I am running into them a lot.
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Posts: 249
I apparently see much fewer druids than you do.

01/29/2014 04:51 AMPosted by Sumadin
As already stated there aren't really any druid card that are overpowered per say but they have at least 3 or 4 cards that are "quite strong" and that is probably what is pushing this.

When you said "none of them are that overpowered" I took that to mean you thought they were a little overpowered.

Well, every class has multiple cards that are quite strong. Shamans have the Earth Elemental, a serious obstacle, and also the Fire Elemental, which pays for it's amazing Battlecry with only a single detracted health (6 mana for 6/5). Mana Tide Totem is one of the best card draw minions in the game, and all their spells are potent and often made more powerful by their great Hero Power.

Pick a class. Paladin? Equality, Lay On Hands, Guardian of Kings, Blessing of Kings, that annoying Aldor Peacekeeper that takes the bite out of even Deathwing. Priest? Shadow Words, Mind Control, Auchenai Soul Priest, Shadowform, Thoughtsteal.

You left out a lot from druid, actually. Ancient of Lore, Druid of the Claw, Ironbark Protector, Ancient of War: All awesome. Most class-specific cards are very strong.

I'm sure you know this, but I'm saying it anyway.

01/29/2014 04:51 AMPosted by Sumadin
I presented this as an opinion because trying to present any balance discussion as fact is ridiculous.

Well, there you go. Your conclusion is not fact. The only non-ridiculous balance discussion is one that either uses fact to support a conclusion or doesn't have a conclusion beyond "I wonder if this is true."

So it seems you're just venting a thought and a possible reason. When you flatly state- "Well allow me to start this delayed trend by making a statement:

Druids are Overpowered...

but it is not as apparent as with other classes."

-people might get the wrong idea.
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Posts: 388
TL DR BUT I AGREE
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Posts: 388
OK I READ A BIT, YOU COMPARE BRINGER OF THE GROOVE WITH THE BIG GUN LOW HEIGHT GUY, NOW COMPARE WITH THE FLAMING ELEMENTAL
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Posts: 310
didnt read the whole thing, waay too long

that said, in my opinion the only druid card that are OP would probably Innervate, the rest are fine

the sole reason the legendary spam deck becoming that much effective
Edited by ZloC on 1/29/2014 6:50 AM PST
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Posts: 589
no complaints cuz we dont play stupid cheesy builds like all others ...just a solid decks that can either win or loose often
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Posts: 350
true.

Yes, there are a lot of Druid Decks out there, but none are the same for one and 2, there is nothing that stands out that is a general problem. The cards are stable and I think his has been mentioned a view times but it is fun to either play with or against a druid player.
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Posts: 41
If you compare the cost efficiency, most druid removals are not very efficient at all, and Druids usually have to pay "tax" for their versatility. Look at wrath, it could be a worse shiv (minion only) or a worse frostbolt (no freeze), but the option is there. Same as starfall. It's 5 mana for 5 damage compared to Fireball's 4 for 6, or even eviscerate combo 2 for 4. And the 2 damage AoE is basically a more expensive worse version of consecration (minion only) or holy nova (same mana, but minion only, no heals).

Naturalize gives 2 cards to the opponent. Card draw wins you games, and you're basically gambling that your opponent doesn't draw the card that gives him huge advantage. Force of Nature is 6 for 6 that doesn't bypass taunt, but can be aoe buffed (10 mana for 12 damage that doesn't bypass taunt and costs 2 cards, equality consecrate is ultimately far more effective). Starfire is basically just a more powerful and expensive hammer of wrath (same cost efficiency). Claw is 2 for 2 damange and armor, but direct removal usually forces you to lose the 2 armor and take damage. I'd argue them to be a little less effective than Holy Smite and Arcane Shot.

Keeper of the grove can either be a cheaper Stormpike Commando with reversed stats (class cards are supposed to be better than neutrals) or a Spellbreaker with worse stats.

It's the RNG screwing you over that keeps pitting you against Druids, man. Does the same for me to priests, and boy do I hate going up against them.

As for the Paladin guy, don't worry. I find paladins very difficult to fight against as well, to the same level as priests. Pretty much the only people who I lose to for a couple of days are priests (even though I make my deck to specifically by anti-shadow word with a bunch of 4 attacks) and paladins.
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Posts: 50
I very rarely see a Druid. Druid isn't OP compared to other classes.
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Posts: 82
It is for sure the most played hero atm on constructed. There isn't really anything that makes druid OP, but it is for sure a strong class with some amazing cards like ancient of lore, swipe etc
Edited by ownz123 on 1/29/2014 12:31 PM PST
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Posts: 1,256
Cards that you mention are just basic "must haves" for any druid deck. Like Warlocks running Voidwalkers and Blood Imps.

Stop trying to nerf whats unique about the class.
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Posts: 193
the reason you see a ton of druids is that their class design is flexibility.....

so by definition as people ladder, if they want to make a deck that will be effective versus just about anything, druid is a good choice.

then class cards are good... but I wouldn't say overpowered.

direct damage to enemy hero is limited
AOE is alright, but weaker than shaman or mage for certain
minions are solid, but later game
buffs are decent, but frankly rarely seen

the mana plays are alright. innervate DOES allow for early board control.... no question. nourish and wild growth are merely 'ok'

class legendary is roughly middle of the pack. he isn't earthshattering in terms of game effect... but he is also one of the few legendaries out there that isn't countered by silence / tinkmaster as his primary ability is in his battlecry.
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Posts: 319
90-95% of the players from 5 on up play Druid. Just watch any legendary stream and you will see this phenomenon with ease. It's not that the class is OP. Its that it is the EASIEST class to play. It's the same reason that Zerg is so popular in SC (its easy to play). Its also the same reason why 95% of all players in War2 play Orc rather than Human. The orc class is weaker than humans, but easier to play resulting in more wins than normal. The exact same logic applies to the Druid class. It literally takes no skill at all to play a Druid because of its absurdly powerful removal. It has 2 cards that provide 5+ damage (easy to bump up with 1 spell power minion like drake) and one of them even gives you a card after using it. Its freakin absurd the amount of removal power Druids have. This is what makes them so easy to play because what is hard about deciding what to do with a clear board. Duuuh. Nothing.

A strong class that is hard to play is useless to 95% of the population. It also results in a skewed perception of power. Easy classes to play are often seen as "OP" when in fact they are not. An example is the Priest class. Everyone and their dog cries for nerfs to the priest class. But why? Simple, its the 2nd easiest class to play for noobs and noobs make up the majority of the population which results in people complaining about Priests even though its a well proven fact that they are the bottom of the barrel power wise. Druid is not the strongest class, I believe it is 3rd strongest IMO and 1st easiest class to play with Priest a very very close 2nd.
Edited by Lancelight on 1/29/2014 8:26 PM PST
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Posts: 279
Druid probably has the least complaints because they don't have "gimmicks" Druid is about numbers and not special effects. The only card Druids have for instant removal is Naturalize which also gives their opponent cards so most don't run it. Lots of health, lots of attack, and removal that has to kill minions through damage. Druid's a the most straightforward class, you don't have to take risks with low health like with Warlocks, you don't have to risk RNG with some of the Priest cards or fear of Silence, ect.
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Posts: 48
too many "choose one" cards that simply give you WHAT YOU NEED at a certain time.
these cards are basicaly 2 in 1 battlecry cards. i guess with the dev team being small the druid got overlooked so far because of too much time trying to balance stuff like UTH hunters and the likes.
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