Why Don't More Warriors Shout?

Posts: 1,930
Shout! Let it all out!

Ahem. Anyway. I'm curious why I'm not seeing more Wild Pyromancer/Commanding Shout play from Warriors. While it is not quite the Pyro/Equality play that Paladins have available, it most certainly has it's benefits. Not killing your own stuff for example. Commanding Shout is also fairly solid on it's own, allowing you to gain better trades, is a Cantrip, and helps set up for Battle Rage, should you desire more card draw, etc. Pyro is on it's own a solid way to clear out dogies and murlocs, as well as trigger Frothiness and Acolytes, etc. (basically, almost everything you wanted Whirlwind for on a 3/2 body).

Commanding Shout does have it's weaknesses. To get the "best" use out of it you're generally in a "win more" position... but I think you can still get value out of it if you get 2-3 cards out of it (aka, it keeps 1-2 of your minions alive in your trades). It has significantly less value against Mage and Druid to be sure but even then I still think it has potential. It can force specific plays, countering large minions without losing too many cards if you have mostly smaller ones, etc.

It's not a fit for every deck, but it's been strong for me, and I'm just kind of surprised that more Warriors aren't running either of these cards, let alone both of them together. But maybe I just haven't seen it.

*shrug*

The closest I saw to a thread on this very subject (via the forum search, Warrior forum only) is 4 months old: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/9792850661#1

(On a related note: to answer one of the unanswered questions in that thread if anyone is still not sure: If Commanding Shout is active, minions at one health that are "damaged" will not trigger "damage" triggers like Armor Smith or Frothing/Gurubashi Berserker. This is the same as "damaging" a minion with Divine Shield. Health actually needs to go down for "damaged" triggers to function.)
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Posts: 135
Cause pyromancer might be fun and everything, i had a pyromancer deck,. couldnt breach rank 14--
very fun deck to play. actually i think it is the most fun deck.. but i wanna be more competive and you can get completely destroyed if you dont get a good start hand, but it counters alot if you get a proper start hand.. but i still had like like 40% win if not less
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Posts: 331
There's nothing I need to kill at the start of the game that has 1 health

If you're interested in making your Cleave deal 3 then yeah having 2x Pyromancer in your deck along with maybe 1x Bloodmage isn't such a bad opener if you can't draw a weapon

A side problem to loading up Pyromancer; however, is Deck Tempo. . .
You probably won't have anymore than 4-5 2gem minions in your deck
Bloodsail almost always takes 2 of those slots
After that you have Taskmaster, Owl, Bloodmage, Ooze, Zerker, etc. . .

Personally the +1 damage off Pyro just goes way down the list when I already have FW-Axe

Commanding Shout also plays way better into Minions with Enrage, Acolyte of Pain, Cobra, Scarlet Crusader, or any other creature with low health / high damage

Again priorities. . .
Long way to get around to answering your question, but you don't see it for these reasons
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Posts: 1,930
01/28/2014 08:10 AMPosted by Palmbeach
Cause pyromancer might be fun and everything, i had a pyromancer deck,. couldnt breach rank 14--
very fun deck to play. actually i think it is the most fun deck.. but i wanna be more competive and you can get completely destroyed if you dont get a good start hand, but it counters alot if you get a proper start hand.. but i still had like like 40% win if not less


That doesn't actually tell me anything. Why was your Pyromancer deck failing? Was it actually because of the Pyromancer and/or Commanding Shout? Or was it simply that you loaded too much of your deck into the play/combo and neglected other aspects of your deck?

Or for some entirely different reason?

Your personal win ratio with an unspecified build just doesn't give enough information. I'd love to hear more specifics on why Pyro and/or Commanding weren't working out for you.

01/28/2014 09:49 AMPosted by MaximumSquid
There's nothing I need to kill at the start of the game that has 1 health

If you're interested in making your Cleave deal 3 then yeah having 2x Pyromancer in your deck along with maybe 1x Bloodmage isn't such a bad opener if you can't draw a weapon


Hmm, it's true that Murlocks have certainly lost popularity. That said though, boosting AoE and killing 1 health minions isn't the only use. Shaving off health for better trades (especially with Commanding Shout, to double dip) is also important. If it wasn't, people wouldn't have complained about Blood Imp for so damn long. Specifically with Commanding Shout, it also means you can stack up Warrior's other Cantrip spells to do even more, though again it's not as efficient as Pyro/Equal... it has it's benefits.

A side problem to loading up Pyromancer; however, is Deck Tempo. . .
You probably won't have anymore than 4-5 2gem minions in your deck
Bloodsail almost always takes 2 of those slots
After that you have Taskmaster, Owl, Bloodmage, Ooze, Zerker, etc. . .


Quite frankly I just don't see those as all being necessary all the time. You should never sacrifice your overall deck building strategy just to have cards you specifically like. This goes both for Pyro and for the cards you've listed. Ooze is good, but it's far from essential, and while Zerker/Pyro/Command can also be very good, if you prefer Bloodsail for it's often more reliable attack than don't worry about the Amani (or vice versa, pending your feelings on the subject and how many spells vs. weapons you have). You can bump Owl for Spellbreakers or Tinkmaster if you need more 4-drops and less 2-drops as well, etc.

Personally the +1 damage off Pyro just goes way down the list when I already have FW-Axe


I don't see them as competing (rather complimentary: Pyro can help make weapons more efficient, and weapons are good removal when you don't want to trigger Pyro yet) but I can respect you have your own priorities.

Commanding Shout also plays way better into Minions with Enrage, Acolyte of Pain, Cobra, Scarlet Crusader, or any other creature with low health / high damage

Again priorities. . .
Long way to get around to answering your question, but you don't see it for these reasons


Certainly, but I don't think Commanding Shout plays "badly" with other minions. It might be great with Ragin' Wargin' and Acolyte, but it doesn't become bad with Kor'Kron Elite or Arathi Weaponsmith.

It does go counter-intuitive with Divine Shield though, that much is true.

Anyway, I very much appreciate your response, even if I disagree with some of the logic that flows from it. Thanks.
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Posts: 331
Pyro + Shout is basically like worse Swipe that costs 1 more card and requires a 1 turn wait for Pyro to come online as an attacker

That makes it a bit rough for my tastes
You mention Frothing, but you can't rely realistically on a 3-card combo
(just doesn't work)

More than likely you'd end up sporting Mad Bomber, Cleave, WW, etc instead
(Using the best 2 cards being key here)

Being unable to play the combo reliably is the same reason why the 5/5 Tiger sees more play than the 2/7. . . I'll take a comboed 7/4 Tiger over a dead/frozen/silenced/sapped Gurubashi and no target for the Inner Rage sitting in my hand all day
Edited by MaximumSquid on 1/28/2014 2:47 PM PST
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Posts: 61
Shout recycles itself and can give you tremendous value against 2/3 of the classes. Pyro's effect is cheap as hell and they both synergise well with other cards available to the warrior. Personally I run both, with both berserkers and, now that the card provides extra damage and a pyro proc, charge.

I'll take a combo'd 15 damage out of the hand over anything someone can see coming, even more if you let your opponent think you're losing and they creature flood into it. A lot of people are rushing against warriors now that the OTK giant deck was nerfed, which only enables the frothing combo even more.

That said I don't claim to be a proficient warrior player but it doesn't stop me having a load of fun with cards that synergise well but can also be combo'd under the right circumstances.

The only reason it's not popular right now is presumably because most people haven't got the balls to try something that wasn't put up by a tournament winner or their favourite streamer.
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Posts: 135
well they removed charge 0 cost to 3cost..,

you just need so many spellcarcds to really benefit from it before it does any good. very funny when it occours..

to get full benefit from pyromancer + frothing bezerker. 3+3 have one on board ealier, which i doubt anyone will let you.. otherwise you have to wait till round 6. before you can actually start doing a combo.

Don't know if you have tried playing this game, but you see that 3/4 off people playing are doing a rush game.= loose.or you have to get very lucky..
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Posts: 2,299
I use 2 but mostly to kill taunters without losing my guys.

Taunt just owns warriors, especially if you play Charge/Weapon style.
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Posts: 1,930
01/28/2014 02:47 PMPosted by MaximumSquid
Pyro + Shout is basically like worse Swipe that costs 1 more card and requires a 1 turn wait for Pyro to come online as an attacker


Shout is a Cantrip, so in terms of card advantage it's not more expensive. It is in some ways more combersome to play, you can't topdeck both cards at once like you can Swipe. On the other hand, it's also more flexible. You don't need Shout to make good use of Pyro or Pyro to make good use of Shout. For example, Pyro works great with Slam as well (not only does it allow Slam to effectively take out a 3-health minion, it still gets the card-draw from Slam unlike what Thalnos or other SpellDamage card would get you.). Shout to trigger Acolyte or Raging against 3-ATK minions etc.; and can be great to take out larger/taunt minions late-game if you run a decent number of Charge minions, or if they were making the play hoping you didn't have Commanding Shout and would be forced to fully trade (which at present is not an unreasonable hope, but would still be valid even if Shout got used more, since people won't necessarily know how many you have, whether you have it in hand, etc.).

That makes it a bit rough for my tastes
You mention Frothing, but you can't rely realistically on a 3-card combo
(just doesn't work)


That's the thing though, I'm not relying on that combo. It's a nice bonus when it's available, but it isn't required to make it a decent play. Just like Frothing can be good without Pyro or Whirlwind (albeit those work really well with it obviously) the Pyro and Shout can be good without Frothing.

Being unable to play the combo reliably is the same reason why the 5/5 Tiger sees more play than the 2/7. . . I'll take a comboed 7/4 Tiger over a dead/frozen/silenced/sapped Gurubashi and no target for the Inner Rage sitting in my hand all day


Understandable.

I do think, though, that the additional Cantrip from Shout, and the combo draw potential with Battle Rage, makes it much easier to combo 3-4 cards with this sort of deck than it would be to do that without those cards. And not just combos specifically regarding Shout or Pyro either. It makes it much more reasonable to draw into Taskmaster(or whatever)/Execute as well, etc.

In general, "lack of reliable card draw" is one of the main issues a lot of players have Warrior... and while it is still somewhat unreliable except late-game, Shout in particular can help with that, even ignoring Pyro.

Again, thanks for your thoughts, you have good points.
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Posts: 176
I find it funny people are saying commanding shout can't work

When there is a viral video of someone using commanding shout, pyromancer, and frothing berserker to deal 37 dmg in an otk takign their opponenbt from 30-0 instantly

But hey...it doesn't work

GG you trolls.
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