Can we nerf unleash the hounds?

Posts: 1,022
05/05/2014 07:38 PMPosted by Lolerster
...
Yes I did...wrong acronym +).


This is not a fair comparison whatsoever. I'm neither defending hunters nor claiming they need a nerf here, but just pointing out your comparison and logic are very flawed.

First of all, Arcane Missiles is RNG. Even when casting it on a board with only one 3/2, you have only a 50/50 chance of killing the 3/2. When casting it on a board with two 3/2 minions, you will on average, hit each minion once and the hero once.

Second, the hounds can be buffed by the timber wolf, and occasionally houndmaster. You can make the argument that spell damage also improve the effects of AoE, but there is no source of spell damage that costs only 1 mana. Furthermore, buffing Arcane Missile only increases the number of missiles by one, while buffing with Timber Wolf increases the attack of each doggy by 1.

Third, Buzzard puts a high priority target onto the board. It CANNOT be compared to Arcane Intellect in any shape, way or form. For each card it draws, it puts down more board presence. It is still reasonable to play Buzzard without UTH. Arcane Intellect puts down 0 board presence. You can argue that Buzzard gets pinged easily, but the difference is that pinging Buzzard slows down the opponent, while playing Arcane Intellect slows down the player that played the AI.

Fourth, you claimed that playing Arcane Missile and Arcane Intellect is not board dependent. This cannot be further from the truth. Arcane Intellect is a card that cannot be played at all in the early game in most matchups unless you have the superior board presence. Even then, it is undesirable. Arcane Missile on an empty board or on a board with low chance of hitting the desired targets is simply a bad play.

Fifth, UTH limits the number of minion that your opponent plays. Sometimes, the threat of a card can be more game-changing than the card itself. Even if UTH is the bottom two cards in your deck, your opponent will not know this for most of the game. To me, if you played Tracking earlier, you are assumed to have UTH. Two, maybe three minions is all I will put on the board. This threat itself is board control. Arcane Missile has no such effects.

Lastly, you need to consider the synergy with the rest of the deck. One of the reasons that the combo is so strong is that Hunters get Hunter's Mark. They also have Tracking and Flare to improve consistency. Buzzard will work on all beasts, and becomes a real threat after turn 3-4, The mage cards have little to no synergy with most class cards.


I prefer arcane explosion as a comparative AoE, but here is why his is at least somewhat on the same track.

This works in the Mage's favor believe it or not because the Mage's can easily ping either one and kill out and the other can be removed with a trade of any kind or an something like an Elven Archer which can take it out without dying.

All AoE can be buffed. Any minion with +1 spell damage on them is increasing your AoE's damage. While our AoE buff is 1 mana cheaper, we can only buff our AoE twice while there are a number of minions that have and give+ spell damage. It's a give and take there as well.

Pinging that Starving Buzzard shows the Hunter down a lot more than the opponent who played it because Hunters are much more combo reliant for any kind of busy and without a solid card draw engine it ability to put pressure out decreases drastically. Most of our answers to difficult situations also require at least a 2 card combo if not more as well which means that once a Hunter is behind, he won't be able to get the answer because he will have no way to thin his deck and get the combo he needs. This hurts especially mud to late game.

His point was that it literally draws 0 of your opponent doesn't have any board presence because Unleash the Hounds requires your opponent to have minions on the board in order to have any effect at all. The lower the minion count on the board, the less effective the combo is. This is one rain why Unleash the Hounds is 100% useless against certain types of decks like Miracle Rogue. No minions means no hounds called and no draw. It's like Arcane Missiles reversed.

Arcane Missiles absolutely does, it's why you have to pay attention to the health of the minions you put on the board. You have to be smarter about the minions you put out. It also forces you to pay attention to the minions that have +1 spell power because the more of them the are on the board, the more likely you are going to get your board cleared by Arcane Missiles. You have to play around the assumption that they have it, just as you do with Unleash the Hounds.

Mage cards have synergy. It's one reason why Freeze Mage is making a return. Frozen combos can absolutely cause havoc with both burst and control tied into one. I have seen Mage's doing 20 plus damage in one turn easily and completely turning the tide of a game. Ice lance on a frozen target is devastating, controlling minions with Cone of Cold and Blizzard makes putting pressure on a Mage a nightmare.
Reply Quote
Posts: 18,551
05/05/2014 07:38 PMPosted by Lolerster
but just pointing out your comparison and logic are very flawed.

I'd be willing to grant you slightly flawed, but they are fairly similar.

Both are 2 card combo's that deal damage and draw cards.

Hunter
Pro: 2/1 body on board
Pro: Controlled Damage
Pro: Synergy with other Beast cards
Pro/Con: Damage/cards based on enemy board
Con: Damage is limited by taunts & reactive damage
Con: Cards do not work well individually

Mage
Pro: Does not depend on enemy board
Pro: Can be used individually for the same effect
Pro: Not limited by taunt
Con: Uncontrolled damage
Con (by comparison): Fixed # of cards/draw
Con (by comparison): Limited synergy

The big one is the board impact. Equivalent yet different, but that impact plays a big role in determining if the Hunter version is better, or the mage version is better. If there is a taunt on board, or limited minions, the Mage can be more useful. If the board is full of X/1 minions, the hunter version is better.

So yes, I agree it is flawed. The point wasn't to have an exact situation (face it, no other card works like UtH), but to have something similar to UtH+Buzz, for the same card & mana cost.

Arcane Intellect & Arcane Missiles are similar, same card cost, same damage, same mana. Differences still exist due to the mechanics involved. though.
Reply Quote
Posts: 18,551
05/05/2014 07:38 PMPosted by Lolerster
Second, the hounds can be buffed by the timber wolf, and occasionally houndmaster. You can make the argument that spell damage also improve the effects of AoE, but there is no source of spell damage that costs only 1 mana. Furthermore, buffing Arcane Missile only increases the number of missiles by one, while buffing with Timber Wolf increases the attack of each doggy by 1.

+SP affects all damage spells.
TW does not affect all minions.

05/05/2014 07:38 PMPosted by Lolerster
It is still reasonable to play Buzzard without UTH.

It is very minimally useful. In general, you play Buzzard with at least 1 beast, or since it is a high profile target, you simply waste it as it doesn't even require strong removal, or a high amount of DD to clear from the board. AI you can play by itself.

05/05/2014 07:38 PMPosted by Lolerster
Fourth, you claimed that playing Arcane Missile and Arcane Intellect is not board dependent. This cannot be further from the truth. Arcane Intellect is a card that cannot be played at all in the early game in most matchups unless you have the superior board presence. Even then, it is undesirable. Arcane Missile on an empty board or on a board with low chance of hitting the desired targets is simply a bad play.

Yet, if there are no minions on the board, both AI and AM function exactly the same (assuming you consider RNG targetting from a pool of 1 target vs a pool of many targets the same, depends on how technical you want to get).

Board presence influences when you want to play them. Their function is not dependent on board presence (technically, Buzz is not dependent on board presence, but we were talking about the 2 card combo in both cases, just to be clear)

05/05/2014 07:38 PMPosted by Lolerster
Fifth, UTH limits the number of minion that your opponent plays. Sometimes, the threat of a card can be more game-changing than the card itself. Even if UTH is the bottom two cards in your deck, your opponent will not know this for most of the game. To me, if you played Tracking earlier, you are assumed to have UTH. Two, maybe three minions is all I will put on the board. This threat itself is board control. Arcane Missile has no such effects.

It also limits the # of minions the hunter can play. Their typical combo has 2 minions already. Assuming we had 2 non-combo minions on the board, we only leave room for 3 hounds in the Buzz+TW (or Hyena)+UtH combo.

AM may not have that threat, but Flamestrike does. A full board for FS is just as bad as a full board for UtH (difference being, your minions can out live the UtH damage, even with TW support, fairly easily, but FS will clear most minions off the board, or put them in Fireblast range). Yes, UtH punishes a full board, as doe most AOEs. UtH just punishes it in a slightly different way.
2M Investment: Just some Damage
4M Investment: Card Draw & Damage
5M Investment: Card Draw & More Damage
7M Investment: Card Draw & More Damage & 4/3 -> 10/5 body (depending on # of hounds, 2-3 is typical)

05/05/2014 07:38 PMPosted by Lolerster
Lastly, you need to consider the synergy with the rest of the deck. One of the reasons that the combo is so strong is that Hunters get Hunter's Mark. They also have Tracking and Flare to improve consistency. Buzzard will work on all beasts, and becomes a real threat after turn 3-4, The mage cards have little to no synergy with most class cards.

Never claimed Hunters didn't have synergy. Just to be clear, the request was a 2 card combo with similar results, for similar costs, to UtH+Buzz, which AI+AM fits the bill.

Also, Mages have good synergy with quite a few cards/mechanics. Not quite to the point where you can run a tribal deck, but it does exists.
Reply Quote
Posts: 6
I wonder why Blizzard claimed that hunters needed aoe and then made a card that can be used for card draw/direct damage/aoe/buff instead of giving them an actual aoe spell. Compared to what other classes have, the synergy is insane and this is what makes it a little bit more powerful than what you might want in this stage at the game. I think if it was introduced later, in another set, it wouldn't be that much of a problem, but right now it stops two classes from using their hero powers because they can be punished for it and heralds the return of OTK in the form of miracle rogue, which was something Blizzard didn't want in first place.
Reply Quote
Posts: 18,551
05/06/2014 06:11 AMPosted by Sania
but right now it stops two classes from using their hero powers because they can be punished for it

It isn't like the ability to create minions out of resources is a completely weak HP. Also, they are not prevented, they just need to make those minions worth a hound (which is not that difficult for Pally at least).

05/06/2014 06:11 AMPosted by Sania
heralds the return of OTK in the form of miracle rogue, which was something Blizzard didn't want in first place.

You cannot OTK with UtH. Period. Seriously, go and try to dish out 30+ damage in one turn using UtH. The best I was able to come up with was 28 damage (8 card combo, Buzzard not included, 11M).
Reply Quote
Posts: 6
05/06/2014 06:27 AMPosted by Verdash
You cannot OTK with UtH. Period. Seriously, go and try to dish out 30+ damage in one turn using UtH. The best I was able to come up with was 28 damage (8 card combo, Buzzard not included, 11M).

I never said you can OTK with hounds just that this card is the reason why miracle is so popular now.
Reply Quote
Posts: 18,551
05/06/2014 06:32 AMPosted by Sania
05/06/2014 06:27 AMPosted by Verdash
You cannot OTK with UtH. Period. Seriously, go and try to dish out 30+ damage in one turn using UtH. The best I was able to come up with was 28 damage (8 card combo, Buzzard not included, 11M).

I never said you can OTK with hounds just that this card is the reason why miracle is so popular now.

Fair enough, I did misread that.

So, because some other class has a OTK, that is reason to nerf a completely different class?

Makes more sense to look at the OTK class, IMO.
Reply Quote
Posts: 6
05/06/2014 07:01 AMPosted by Verdash
So, because some other class has a OTK, that is reason to nerf a completely different class?

Makes more sense to look at the OTK class, IMO.

While I agree that drawing too much in one turn (and thus being able to OTK) is something that should definitely be looked at, miracle gained popularity because it of the sudden burst of hunter popularity, which is because UTH. If Blizzard didn't make UTH the hunter's swiss knife we wouldn't be seeing so much miracle rogue and their OTK.
Reply Quote
Posts: 38
yaz
Edited by cabeshpash on 5/6/2014 12:09 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 66
04/24/2014 07:57 PMPosted by deMarco
I'll be looking for you once the eventual nerf comes around. Your tears will be sweet.


04/24/2014 08:22 PMPosted by Verdash
Please hold your breath. It might make you pass out long enough to give the forums a break from your bias nerd rage.


Whew! Nice timing Blizz! I can only hold my breath for only exactly 2 weeks! Thanks blizzard! And also.. in your face you little $%&*
Edited by deMarco on 5/6/2014 5:38 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 2
@grimjack If your opponent gets 4-7 cards (which is highly unlikely) out a unleash the hounds than you self are playing brainless aggro, so shush.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,090
04/24/2014 08:22 PMPosted by Verdash
Please hold your breath. It might make you pass out long enough to give the forums a break from your bias nerd rage.


Verdash, come back to forums, I want to taste your delicious tears.

For months you've been blindly defending this class, how does it feel?
Reply Quote
Posts: 17
05/07/2014 03:00 AMPosted by SirDigby
04/24/2014 08:22 PMPosted by Verdash
Please hold your breath. It might make you pass out long enough to give the forums a break from your bias nerd rage.


Verdash, come back to forums, I want to taste your delicious tears.

For months you've been blindly defending this class, how does it feel?


Well next time you will see him defending another OP class as he enjoy EZ win games. But I believe he will still defend hunter after nerf because adding 1 mana cost still OP. Blizzard has to make it summon hounds as much as making the number of minions even with opponent only, like i said in another post. If opponent has 4 minions, huntard has 1 buzzard and 1 hyena, UTH will only summon 2 hounds.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1
Well, this weeks nerf didn't do much, now did it? Same effect, only it is played one round later. Or am I wrong? You say adapt. I say I don't want to put a deck together and always have to bear in mind that "Oh that's right, I might have to fight the UTH combo. Better stock up on taunt and aoe!". This is hilarious.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]