Can we nerf unleash the hounds?

Posts: 8
Via liquidhearth.com
According to a recent LiquidHearth poll, Unleash the Hounds was voted the most likely card to be changed next. Is this a card Blizzard is looking at and are there any other cards "on watch" right now?

Ben Brode: I will say that right now Unleash the Hounds is not currently planned to be changed. Again, we don't really want to be changing cards unless we think it's absolutely necessary. And right now, there aren't any cards that we think are absolutely necessary to change. We're always looking at things to see if there's anything that's absolutely necessary to change so we're paying a lot of attention, but there's nothing that sticks out just yet.
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Posts: 23
I haven't seen this, but I have encountered a similar one : Snake Trap + Buzzard + Wolf. It was annoying too.
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02/08/2014 09:57 PMPosted by Joey
I haven't seen this, but I have encountered a similar one : Snake Trap + Buzzard + Wolf. It was annoying too.

If you fell for Buzz+Snake, that is in the same vein of poor play as playing 4+ minions against a hunter without using taunts.

And, you have the opportunity to AOE down the Snakes before the hunter can use them for damage.
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Posts: 15,056
Why is it that you ignore the obvious of, they tried it at 3, and they didn't think it was enough?

Blizzard internal tests don't matter to me.
I've seen them nerf spells in Starcraft, taking them from OP to almost never used by reducing range by 2 instead of 1.
Different balance team sure, but without testing the middle number publicly, there's no real way to know.
Edited by Fawxkitteh on 2/10/2014 8:05 AM PST
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Posts: 7
01/31/2014 01:05 AMPosted by Everbard
Here, enjoy the free win, Mr. Hunter. I'm gone. No need for me to stick around.

Honestly, I wish, sometimes, that I could convey my annoyance better. They need to understand that some of these wins are not earned through a hard-fought, quality match, they're given to them because the other player is too disgusted to stick around.


HAHAHAHA this is hilarious, thanks for the good laugh. But like most player said, pro players can easily curb UtH combos, and pros doesnt even bother to play hunters cause its not a cut above the rest of the class.
Edited by HolyMonk on 2/11/2014 12:12 AM PST
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Posts: 20
The only way i can beat hunter rush is anymore is to surrender turn one, I don't smash my laptop, and they don't get the satisfaction of doing any of those stupid UTH combos, win-win for me.
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Posts: 256
Summon a lot of minions vs hunter u lose, summon few minions u lose, traps and bow all the time, if u are not a same kind of rush deck its impossible to win. NERF THIS !@#$IN %^-* ALLREADY
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02/10/2014 08:05 AMPosted by Fawxkitteh
Blizzard internal tests don't matter to me.
I've seen them nerf spells in Starcraft, taking them from OP to almost never used by reducing range by 2 instead of 1.
Different balance team sure, but without testing the middle number publicly, there's no real way to know.

Oh? So they just happen to magically stumble upon several great games, with relatively few minor flaws here and there?

Seriously, you are overlooking all the stuff they get right, just to focus on what they get wrong, and using that as evidence that their internal testing is never accurate.

Trust me, I am well familiar with Blizz over hitting the mark, missing the obvious, and generally making a bad change (Aspect of the Fox....)

That doesn't mean I discount all of the work they do. I only call them out when I reasonably think something is unreasonably broken. UtH, as it is now, is not unreasonably broken. The entire combo package might need a tweak here or there, but what is the problem with UtH?

Is it too cheap? Well, then a mana tweak might be needed, but should UtH be tweaked, or should it be the combo enablers (Buzz, TW, or even Hyena)?

Is it too much "face" damage, even considering taunts? Well, maybe we need to reduce Hound damage to the face then.

Is it too flexible when you consider how the entire hunter package "picks on you" for using certain # of minions? Okay, change it to have a set # of hounds then.

etc

Just going "Blizz, should have tried three first", is just a tad bit arrogant on your part.
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Posts: 647
1. I totally agree with your point that the nerf callers are incredibly arrogant and aggressive as hell. I'd love more civil discussions, but alas, you get what you get.

02/11/2014 05:08 AMPosted by Verdash
or should it be the combo enablers (Buzz, TW, or even Hyena)


2. It also has some other really good combos I've run in arena. You can use it against minions really well with dire wolf alpha (not so much to the face). You can cast it to buff up a frostwolf warlord. It also gives you the same effect as buzzard if you played cult master (although yes, more expensive.) Even lesser used cards like raid leader and stormwind champ can combo this card. Then you have knife juggler, can buff flesh eating ghoul, and I think that's about it for neutral synergies. The effect it can have for the cost is actually quite strong, and there's a million ways to combo it.

So, I guess you can't really just tweak those combo enablers? Unless the other combos that I've listed are just considered too weak/expensive to matter, which is possible.

02/11/2014 05:08 AMPosted by Verdash
Is it too much "face" damage, even considering taunts? Well, maybe we need to reduce Hound damage to the face then.


Just theorycrafting here, I have no idea how this could be done. Any ideas? I'm curious.

02/11/2014 05:08 AMPosted by Verdash
Is it too flexible when you consider how the entire hunter package "picks on you" for using certain # of minions? Okay, change it to have a set # of hounds then.


And finally, even though AoE BASICALLY does the same thing as (punish for using too many minions) - I love that aspect of the card. I guess it's possible they limit the beasts and add something else in an expansion or something that does something to the old effect but with much less combo-ability or something?

I think I've said something one too many times haha.

Anyways, I still think it can be played around reasonably enough, and yes I've played against it plenty. But if a nerf is inevitable (which it's looking like it isn't, but who knows) then I guess exploring options right now isn't the worst possible thing?
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Posts: 20,464
So, I guess you can't really just tweak those combo enablers? Unless the other combos that I've listed are just considered too weak/expensive to matter, which is possible.

That's the thing. Most of them are much more expensive than the Class card version (Cult vs Buzz, SWC/RL vs TW).

Alpha Wolf is one of the few that is "on par" (more mana expensive, but less card cost when used vs minions for +2 attack on hounds). However, you can't easily use Alpha for face slamming and affect all the hounds.

Frostwolf Warlord is one of those that doesn't really have an equivalent in the hunter class, but it isn't a cheap combo. It is 7 mana, and the Warlord gets +1/+1 per enemy minion. That isn't too excessive, IMO.

Same for Knife Juggler+UtH, it works as a "quasi" +SP effect, except the extra damage is randomnly dealt. Random makes it okay, IMO.

Ghoul is similar to Hyena, both are limited in that there is a turn to respond to the Ghoul/Hyena (outside of turn 9 Rhino combos).

So, at least from my stand point, the Neutral combo pieces are not out of whack with UtH. They are less efficient, and subtly different enough. Granted, I don't think UtH, Buzz or TW really even needs a mana increase for the Hunter combo, but if something did get bumped, TW or Buzz makes more sense than UtH. Especially when you consider its impact on Neutral combos.

ust theorycrafting here, I have no idea how this could be done. Any ideas? I'm curious.

Thought I mentioned it...+)
Give the Hounds a "Deals 1 less damage to Heroes" mechanic, in addition to Charge.

02/11/2014 06:23 AMPosted by Dandin
But if a nerf is inevitable (which it's looking like it isn't, but who knows) then I guess exploring options right now isn't the worst possible thing?

I don't disagree, but many times, the nerf is obviously based on someone's rage, and is out to gut the effect, or just a knee-jerk reaction. To re-sum, at least IMO, here are acceptable tweaks:

1) TW -> 2/2 @ 2M
2) Buzz -> 2/3 @ 3M
3) Hounds gain "Deals 1 less damage to Heroes" mechanic
4) Hounds summons a fixed #

In my preferred order, and no, not all of them, just 1, maybe 2.
Edited by Verdash on 2/11/2014 8:31 AM PST
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Posts: 647
Hah, you probably did mention it elsewhere. To be honest it's rare that I brave these UtH threads. Mostly because it's always same old same old.

I guess for me the simple number of combos, though expensive and situational, make it as strong as it is (for me). You can have any number of those cards in your deck, and potentially get pretty high value from any of them (although a deck running all of these things might not necessarily be that competitive.) However, that could just be good deck building, and also the value can be mitigated by how your opponent plays, so it can all even out.

Hah, if nothing else it makes for a pretty interesting card, since it has so many ways it can be used.

out of the 4 changes you said, I'd like 2 and 4 the best. 4 just has consistency, and allows for you to make use of the card even without a board, but effectively doesn't punish people for overextending. #2 I just love cause that keeps the buzzard at a high priority removal, while also making it harder to kill, which are the kinds of cards I love. Also, it knocks them out of the 2 cost range, where your traps and whatnot lie.
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Posts: 279
All these nerf-shouts still coming ... as shadow i will post my question in every nerf-thread ....maybe i can get an answer somewhere

and

1st ... Blizz has announced, in an intervju, that they have no plans on nerfing it.

2nd .. If UtH makes Hunter so OP .. How come so few play it at rank 5 and below?

3rd .. If UtH makes Hunter so OP .. How come they can't win any Tournament?

4th .. If UtH makes Hunter so OP .. How come every report published indicates that Hunters have 50/50 winrate?

5th IF UtH makes Hunter so OP .. How come it's on 5-6th place in class rankings?

So explain all these questions to me and then justify why it should be nerfed ..
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Posts: 28
I think a big part of the "problem" is that it is so counter-intuitive. Against any other deck if the opponent does nothing but hero-ability and/or low-budget minions like leper gnome then you play a full board of high-class minions and win. Against UTH-hunter this behaviour will eventually loose you the game. Not readily apperant to newer players.
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02/11/2014 08:38 AMPosted by Youndi
I think a big part of the "problem" is that it is so counter-intuitive. Against any other deck if the opponent does nothing but hero-ability and/or low-budget minions like leper gnome then you play a full board of high-class minions and win. Against UTH-hunter this behaviour will eventually loose you the game. Not readily apperant to newer players.

If you have the wrong strat against any deck, you will generally lose. There is nothing counter-intuitive about that.
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02/11/2014 07:54 AMPosted by Dandin
out of the 4 changes you said, I'd like 2 and 4 the best.

Personally, I like 2) better than 1), it is just 1) specifically addresses damage, which is always a major factor in any combo.

A card draw combo that draws 10 cards is always going to be more reasonable than a damage combo that deals over 30 health. Or at least, close to being more reasonable +)

Similarly, I would rather see #3 over #4, I like the variable nature of UtH, I wouldn't want it to turn into a FoN clone.

I am open to other, reasonable changes. I'd expect a decent attempt at justification for the change though, rather than a "It's OP, do X".
Edited by Verdash on 2/11/2014 8:51 AM PST
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Posts: 28
02/11/2014 08:40 AMPosted by Verdash
I think a big part of the "problem" is that it is so counter-intuitive. Against any other deck if the opponent does nothing but hero-ability and/or low-budget minions like leper gnome then you play a full board of high-class minions and win. Against UTH-hunter this behaviour will eventually loose you the game. Not readily apperant to newer players.

If you have the wrong strat against any deck, you will generally lose. There is nothing counter-intuitive about that.


I am sorry but yes it is. Not playing any cards in a cardgame is quite counter-intuitive. I mean once you learn to recognize and deal with UTH-hunter it's easy but it feels "wrong" every time you hit End Turn despite having minions you could have played if you didnt already have one out.
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Posts: 279
02/11/2014 09:01 AMPosted by Youndi

If you have the wrong strat against any deck, you will generally lose. There is nothing counter-intuitive about that.


I am sorry but yes it is. Not playing any cards in a cardgame is quite counter-intuitive. I mean once you learn to recognize and deal with UTH-hunter it's easy but it feels "wrong" every time you hit End Turn despite having minions you could have played if you didnt already have one out.


hunters have the same feeling .. sitting on those valuable buzz ... and u can't play it since opponent has his hero-power, or not be able to play a lousy beast-card since opponents minion for the same cost, that is already out, is much stronger.

Hunters have ALWAYS had that feeling ... so now it seems the other classes got the hunter-feeling
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Posts: 28
02/11/2014 09:09 AMPosted by Luffe


I am sorry but yes it is. Not playing any cards in a cardgame is quite counter-intuitive. I mean once you learn to recognize and deal with UTH-hunter it's easy but it feels "wrong" every time you hit End Turn despite having minions you could have played if you didnt already have one out.


hunters have the same feeling .. sitting on those valuable buzz ... and u can't play it since opponent has his hero-power, or not be able to play a lousy beast-card since opponents minion for the same cost, that is already out, is much stronger.

Hunters have ALWAYS had that feeling ... so now it seems the other classes got the hunter-feeling


I am sorry if I did not make my self clear. I am not crying nerf. I am showing some understanding why people are.
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Posts: 279
02/11/2014 09:15 AMPosted by Youndi

I am sorry if I did not make my self clear. I am not crying nerf. I am showing some understanding why people are.


didn't think u was crying nerf ..

just stated that "the hold on playable card"-feeling is what hunters have had to do forever, but now when other classes have to play like this against hunters, LOTS cry about it
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02/11/2014 09:24 AMPosted by Luffe

I am sorry if I did not make my self clear. I am not crying nerf. I am showing some understanding why people are.


didn't think u was crying nerf ..

just stated that "the hold on playable card"-feeling is what hunters have had to do forever, but now when other classes have to play like this against hunters, LOTS cry about it

That and, you can play your minions, you just need to play the right ones.

We can never play Buzz except along with another card, it is too fragile for how high priority it is, an outside of combos, it is always spend 2 cards to draw one. Or 3 to draw 2, etc.
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