Balance conserning Rogues

Posts: 351
So after a few duels with a friend of mine (Playing Kolento's miracle rogue, but this works for any variation of the class's deck, atleast partially), i've noticed something that seems really out of hand when it comes to balance, very akin to OTK Warrior or Mage, where you simply cannot respond to it even if you see it coming.

1) Shadowstep: Shadowstep serves a great purpose and he's the main culprit in this when combined with Leeroy Jenkins. Double step leeroy is 18 damage for 8 mana, 26 with double cold blood (Which is a staple for miracle rogue). You can safely argue that the rogue needs to draw these cards to combo, but miracle rogue cycles through their cards quite fast so you can almost guarantee you have this combo up.

2) Sap: For two mana, this is a strong version of Dream. Why is this card here? Because the counter to leeroy rush is taunt, and for 2 mana you can send the taunt back into the person's hand and then triple leeroy for 18 damage, sacrificing the cold bloods. This is assuming no other minions in your table, just flat leeroy.

The biggest jist i have with this deck is that you simply cannot outpace it, and you cant react to the strong burst damage that's coming (Because unlike MTG you dont have selective blocking). What does this resemble? Warrior OTK, which required more cards but COULD be played arround. You could set yourself up to kill a warrior in one turn before he can drop free giants, but that meant dragging out the game and playing tactically. The more you drag out the game vs rogue, the better HIS chances are at killing you.

Even on a non-miracle rogue deck, the simple ability to Double leeroy coldblood/deadly poison/eviscerate/whatever can do so much damage, while combined with the rogue's good ability to clear the board in the early stages of the game. A turn 1 double innervate druid of the claw can be removed on the following turn by either Sap or BS > Evis.

I know most of the Rogue players in here will probably tell me stuff like "LOL L2P". It's fine, no one wants their class to be nerfed. But there's a big difference between personal preferences and balance issues, which double/triple leeroy currently is.

In my honest opinion, Shadowstep should be changed so that the card you bounce back up cannot be played on the same turn. This way you dont need to nerf leeroy/commander/any charge card that combos well with shadowstep, while still having the possibility to drop your minion at reduced cost on the following turn.

This would allow for people to REACT to what's coming and actually give them a decent chance to counter it, akin to what you do atm with big plays (Opponent plays Rag, you either fill the board with low creatures or use some sort of removal. He still did 8 damage, but now it's up to YOU to counter it, and if you cant you're still gonna be in a pretty bad spot)

Rogues arent any sort of top dog at the moment, but that is no reason not to change something that's clearly broken (Warrior OTK was the "only" deck you could play, that got changed, people just worked arround it).

I'd like to hear the constructed opinions of Rogues who play these decks/combo, but keep it civilized. We're discussing balance here, not throwing insults at eachother like little kids.
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Posts: 247
Psst. Bleed.

Delete this thread. Move to The Barrens and change your name if you don't want to get Assasinated next week. I hope you understand your current situation.

*Vanish*
Edited by Husky on 2/2/2014 2:10 PM PST
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Posts: 1,181
Double step leeroy is 18 damage for 8 mana, 26 with double cold blood (Which is a staple for miracle rogue)


Course you need leeroy, both cold blood, both sstep, and no taunts in order to put that on a hero.
And even more of course, you need to have 10 mana to pull this off, in addition to the 5 cards in hand.

2) Sap: For two mana, this is a strong version of Dream. Why is this card here? Because the counter to leeroy rush is taunt, and for 2 mana you can send the taunt back into the person's hand and then triple leeroy for 18 damage, sacrificing the cold bloods. This is assuming no other minions in your table, just flat leeroy.


True. Awesome card. Especially in that particular situation.

Honestly, if they nerf Shadowstep the way you say, it will almost be useless. Id rather see them just flat out remove Leeroy instead. Let me keep SStep.

Mostly what Ive personally found playing miracle, is that its a hard deck to play well, and usually the stars dont align like in your example. Usually I struggle with early aggression, unless I just happen to get the exact cards I need at the right time.

Not sure if I would consider this OP or not, it is after all a late game situation with several stars having to align for it to work. A lot of factors that have to fit leading up to this point; having the card draw and drawing correctly to survive up until that point being a big one.

However, lets say it IS overpowered, for arguments sake; I still would rather have Leeroy flat out removed from the game than have sstep changed.

BTW you can expand that scenario by introducing premeditation for the saps, and clear 2 taunts with a 2xCB 2xSStep Leeroy. Since we're playing "what if" :)
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Posts: 351
Well, i'm only talking about realistic possibilities here Slai, because Leeroy will never be removed from the game, hence why i didnt sugest it. There's also other decks that use Leeroy, but not to the insane extent of rogues.

As i mentioned previously, you do need the stars to align, but miracle rogue cycles through their cards pretty quickly, so the odds are (mostly) in your favour.

It's nice to see a constructive answer. Keep them coming.
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Posts: 1,181
Hm well they really cant change sstep without severely breaking it, imo, so just make Leeroy immune to spells until the end of the turn he is played. Whaaaat.

On the other side of things; youre only concerned about leeroy here, you find the rest of the deck fine, yes?

If so; Im voting for my idea above here. Leave SStep alone, I use it a lot :P .
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Posts: 351
The draws and prep plays are fine, it's just the uncontrolable, uncounterable burst from SStep leeroy with CB that needs to be fixed :p
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Posts: 6
OP I strongly advise you to learn to play the game and not whine on the forums. Are you seriously complaying about Rogue? You want Rogue class cards get changed? That is like the most unreflected and most stupid thing I have pretty much ever read here on the boards. Just wow...

You basically only whine about Leeroy jenkins. So why not just change it instead of ruining good or even pretty bad class cards? IF IT EVEN WAS A PROBLEM AT ALL! Leeroy is just a worse Fireball. Did you went to the Mage Forum and whine about Fireball? No? I see... then please !@#$!

You can't outpace a Miracle Rouge? Are ypu serious? EVERY damn Hunter, Warrior, Paladin, whatever Aggro deck which goes for the face is the most horrible Match Up to Miracle Rogue. It's like 20-80. And I dont make this numbers up. If you can't beat a Miracle Rouge deck with your cheap aggro decks than you really shouldn't even be allowd to write here. You should go make a new account and replay the tutorial. For at least 10 times.
Thank you.
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Posts: 351
02/02/2014 05:49 PMPosted by Winterheart
OP I strongly advise you to learn to play the game and not whine on the forums. Are you seriously complaying about Rogue? You want Rogue class cards get changed? That is like the most unreflected and most stupid thing I have pretty much ever read here on the boards. Just wow...

You basically only whine about Leeroy jenkins. So why not just change it instead of ruining good or even pretty bad class cards? IF IT EVEN WAS A PROBLEM AT ALL! Leeroy is just a worse Fireball. Did you went to the Mage Forum and whine about Fireball? No? I see... then please !@#$!

You can't outpace a Miracle Rouge? Are ypu serious? EVERY damn Hunter, Warrior, Paladin, whatever Aggro deck which goes for the face is the most horrible Match Up to Miracle Rogue. It's like 20-80. And I dont make this numbers up. If you can't beat a Miracle Rouge deck with your cheap aggro decks than you really shouldn't even be allowd to write here. You should go make a new account and replay the tutorial. For at least 10 times.
Thank you.


Cool story bro.
Edited by Bleed on 2/2/2014 7:08 PM PST
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Posts: 65
Ever noticed that every single post about something being OP takes the dream scenario as a example. Yes if i have 10 mana , leeroy, double shadowstep and double cold blood i can do allot of damage, assuming you have no taunt. But every class can do allot of damage with 10 mana and 5 cards of their choice. But in reality, you will rarely have that combo of cards at 10 mana, and if you decide not to use them but save them till than you might be killed before you even reach 10 mana. Take a more realistic scenario when making complaints.

PS there is a vid on youtube showing that every class can do a OTK at 10 mana with certain cards
Edited by Dragnipur on 2/3/2014 4:13 AM PST
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Posts: 217
Yea, imo another "I got hit with a OTK combo and now my self esteem has gotten a dent. *sob*". Or in other wording "Blizzard should nerf any class/combo/card I can't deal with".

Seriously, this the beauty of CCGs, to be able to get a combo like that and pull it off once in a while. Heck, even I've done it with my cheap basic only mage deck. Fireball and Goblin rocketeer two turns in a row. Not very common but freaking hilarious when it work. I've also gotten the same thing back towards me, and that's fine. This is what CCG is about. You don't have to balance everything to suit your needs. Suck it up, deal with it and move on a wiser and stronger person.

It seems that HS may not be your type of game, and that's fine. I suck at SC2. That doesn't mean I flame the forums for Blizzard to "balance" the game in my favor.
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Posts: 351
02/03/2014 04:11 AMPosted by Dragnipur
Ever noticed that every single post about something being OP takes the dream scenario as a example. Yes if i have 10 mana , leeroy, double shadowstep and double cold blood i can do allot of damage, assuming you have no taunt. But every class can do allot of damage with 10 mana and 5 cards of their choice. But in reality, you will rarely have that combo of cards at 10 mana, and if you decide not to use them but save them till than you might be killed before you even reach 10 mana. Take a more realistic scenario when making complaints.

PS there is a vid on youtube showing that every class can do a OTK at 10 mana with certain cards


There is also no way in hell you've gone 9 turns as a rogue without doing a decent ammount of damage to your opponent. I'm taking the worst case scenario from one side and a very plausible scenario on the other. Have you even played miracle rogue? It's not uncommon for the rogue to cycle through all his cards while you still sit at 15+ in your deck.

If the drawing power wasnt realistic, i could take your argument as valid. But aslong as it is, the point still stands. In any way, it's not the draw power that's broken by itself, it's the fact that you can pair that to do unmatched damage REALISTICALLY.

This mentioning of the Youtube video also makes no sense at all. We're talking REALITY here, not "if saturn moves 1 inch to the right at the same time a butterfly burps the world will end". Please, if you havent played the deck/versus the deck, feel free to watch Kolento and get educated about how the deck functions. Yes, Kolento is in a league of his own, but it demonstrates how quickly you can cycle through cards.

Im not saying the deck is brainless, far from that. The decision making once that auctioneer hits the table is immense, so this isnt a deck that any random baddie can just pick up and have huge sucess with. But the higher your rank, the better players you'l find and mastering this deck will give you quite a huge winrate (Which isnt bad on itself, it's just the fact that it's uncounterable damage most of the time). I've beat this deck myself, and have played against it multiple times, so i know how the deck functions and what it can do.

I do thank you for the non-troll post like the one above yours, but ask yourself this question; Did you think Warrior OTK was fine and shouldnt have been nerfed? Because the warrior OTK was predicatable and you could play arround it, you can play arround miracle rogue too, but getting to the point where you can wreck someone as a rogue is alot easier (due to card draw) than it was for a Warrior. Molten giant at the end of the deck? GG.

Let's keep it going.
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Posts: 351
02/03/2014 04:46 AMPosted by Skyclad
Yea, imo another "I got hit with a OTK combo and now my self esteem has gotten a dent. *sob*". Or in other wording "Blizzard should nerf any class/combo/card I can't deal with".

Seriously, this the beauty of CCGs, to be able to get a combo like that and pull it off once in a while. Heck, even I've done it with my cheap basic only mage deck. Fireball and Goblin rocketeer two turns in a row. Not very common but freaking hilarious when it work. I've also gotten the same thing back towards me, and that's fine. This is what CCG is about. You don't have to balance everything to suit your needs. Suck it up, deal with it and move on a wiser and stronger person.

It seems that HS may not be your type of game, and that's fine. I suck at SC2. That doesn't mean I flame the forums for Blizzard to "balance" the game in my favor.


Clearly Blizzard disagrees with you, else Hunter and Warrior OTK would still be in the game (With warrior OTK being the easiest to play arround). You have to look at this from a BALANCE point of view, then add in the realistic chance of it happening, then take into account how your opponent can counter it.

If you've not seen how the deck works/not played it/played against it, by all means, feel free to watch Kolento's stream, he showcases the power of the deck quite well. He's on a league of his own playing this deck, but it showcases the power of SStep Leeroy quite often.
Edited by Bleed on 2/3/2014 5:03 AM PST
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Posts: 189
Do you know how many times do we lost to do that combo?

How much it cost to have that scenario?
When we have that Scenario we almost always are under 10 hp
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Posts: 351
02/03/2014 05:39 AMPosted by RhymeAsylum
Do you know how many times do we lost to do that combo?

How much it cost to have that scenario?
When we have that Scenario we almost always are under 10 hp


You're doing something wrong then, sorry to say.
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Posts: 20
02/03/2014 06:11 AMPosted by Bleed
You're doing something wrong then, sorry to say.


I think it's you doing something wrong if Miracle Rogue is what you think is worth complaining about in this game.
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Posts: 89
- it's the worst type of deck type. inconsistent but when it works people feel cheated...it gives the impression of being powerful because it's flashy and bursty. People beat this deck and it just looks like u beat a bad rogue cuz they didn't have their combo ready and went to your face too fast.

- it is not op it's prolly up but again gives the feeling of power . It's not old miracle deck... All those cards got nerfed already now you want to nerf shadow step . I think op is trolling but oh well ... This deck is a one trick pony and an inconsistent one at that... It's fine
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Posts: 1,181
Thbigchief: well, to be fair that one trick pony has more tricks and when played well does... Well. Not because of relying on doublestepping Leeroy every game, of course.
And consistent enough to reach legend. Which is something.
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Posts: 14
Hi Bleed,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I have to say that I don't fully agree with you. While Shadow Step Leeroy is very powerful, it is also quite easily countered by any taunt creatures. Now you can argue that if (let's say IF) you have one Sap in your hand then it's not a problem but now we are talking about ideal conditions for a play which is not realistic either, it does have more chance to occur in a Miracle Rogue deck due to the high chances of drawing a lot of cards but again that is pretty much the only thing this deck can do: Draw & Burst.

I don't really agree with the late game argument either, Miracle Rogue has a specific time window, a sort of sweet spot for removing/sapping and bursting - Too early and your opponent recovers/heals/fills the board. To late and your removals/Sap won't be enough to stop the huge cards effectively and you might burn your deck and starting to take fatigue damage.

Let's also consider the most common big damage dealer of the Miracle Rogue:

Van Cleef - most of the time it will be silenced/polymorphed/hexed...etc.

Leeroy - Needs combo to be really effective, just one charging Leroy is like a fireball (in terms of Damage). Plus you need to clear the board to get rid of the Whelps (not hard to do, but hey, that's more hassle than a fireball )

Eviscerate - Good with +spell damage. Require combo (not to hard to achieve, granted) but most of the time at least 1 will be used as a removal.

Cold Blood - Same damage as Eviscerate (without + spell damage) but requires combo + a minion AND no taunts on the other side, otherwise it's just another removal and not a very efficient one (you need that damage to be done to the opponents, not the minions).

..and that's it. Now there are many variation of the deck so it's a little hard to account for all the possibilities of good damage dealing (Blade flurry + Poison ...etc). This is just a simple analysis of some of the staple cards of a Miracle Rogue deck.

I think that you agree with the fact that Miracle takes skill to play correctly and thus the rewards should be victory or at least a close game where the rogue almost wins. This sounds like balance to me.

We are not really talking about an abuse or poor design from some part of the game but a genuinely good execution and a (almost) flawless decision making to set up that moment.

Give a Miracle Rogue deck to an average player and watch the results... give some of the easier and more powerful deck to an average player and watch them climb ranks.

This shouldn't be punished/nerfed because if you want to win as a Miracle rogue you have to really earn it, not like some other decks.

Please note that I am by no mean a great player so I might be off the mark with some of my thoughts. Just my opinion, nothing else.

Rogue is really fine as it is. I might even need some rework on some of the class's epic cards.

Cheers.
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Posts: 351
02/03/2014 02:04 PMPosted by Pepso
Good thing nobody listens to people like OP.

Nothing personal.


What a constructive way to share your toughts. Scram.
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