Balance conserning Rogues

Posts: 494
02/03/2014 08:37 AMPosted by Slai
Thbigchief: well, to be fair that one trick pony has more tricks and when played well does... Well. Not because of relying on doublestepping Leeroy every game, of course.
And consistent enough to reach legend. Which is something.


Thanks for the input, both you and Albino. This is the kind of discussion we need in here, valid reasonings behind toughts and not one liners with no foundation.

The deck has already proved it can get to Legend in the hands of a good player, and i'm not denying that it takes more than average skill to play. My one and only complain about the deck (And it's not even the deck, it's just a part of it that just happens to be the strongest) is the leeroy combo. You dont NEED to double SS leeroy every game. But should you feel the need to, you can.

Keep it up.
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Posts: 375
One of your evidences of deck being "OP/broken" is that it is "consistent enough to reach legend" therefore it requires nerf... I don't even... no !@#$ it, I can't...
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Posts: 1,181
DenDron: are you talking to me? Because you should read more. Im not even CLOSE to saying its OP/broken. I don't think that it is at all. Which is pretty clear from reading the thread :) .
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Posts: 494
02/03/2014 03:32 PMPosted by DenDron
One of your evidences of deck being "OP/broken" is that it is "consistent enough to reach legend" therefore it requires nerf... I don't even... no !@#$ it, I can't...


You dont know how to read. Congratulations.
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Posts: 1,795
Last I checked, heroes start with 30 hp.

Therefore, 26 dmg is not OTK.

Miracle Rogue is not exactly dominating constructed play.

Nothing's "broken" here. Stop trying to "fix" it with more effing nerfs
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Posts: 747
the reason rogue combo works so good, is that for a time everyone stopped using taunts.
this deck runs 2 saps. very good card to bypass taunt for a turn, but not so great against senjin, sunwalker, druid etc.
it is however great against argus/sunfury targets, they wont come back with taunt.

there is no way you can try miracle against 4-5 taunts in deck...
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Posts: 494
02/03/2014 05:58 PMPosted by seven6two
Last I checked, heroes start with 30 hp.

Therefore, 26 dmg is not OTK.

Miracle Rogue is not exactly dominating constructed play.

Nothing's "broken" here. Stop trying to "fix" it with more effing nerfs


So in your view, Warrior OTK should still be in the game? Scram, we dont need more biased rogue opinions here.
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Posts: 494
02/04/2014 01:45 AMPosted by Logi
the reason rogue combo works so good, is that for a time everyone stopped using taunts.
this deck runs 2 saps. very good card to bypass taunt for a turn, but not so great against senjin, sunwalker, druid etc.
it is however great against argus/sunfury targets, they wont come back with taunt.

there is no way you can try miracle against 4-5 taunts in deck...


Yeah, the rest of the damage cards the rogue has are there for a reason. You dont just bounce every taunt back into your opponent's hand, you have the option to kill them and save sap for a rainy day.
Edited by Bleed on 2/4/2014 2:12 AM PST
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Posts: 3
02/02/2014 02:23 PMPosted by Bleed
. There's also other decks that use Leeroy, but not to the insane extent of rogues.


Leroy +2x rockbiter + windfury = 24 dmg 8 mana put in a flametounge and its 28 for 10 mana in 1 turn

No offense but just cause u dont know how to combo cards doesn't mean ur right !
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Posts: 1,181
Logi: you clearly can play miracle even against a deck with 4-5 taunts in deck.
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Posts: 494
02/04/2014 03:24 AMPosted by LESI
. There's also other decks that use Leeroy, but not to the insane extent of rogues.


Leroy +2x rockbiter + windfury = 24 dmg 8 mana put in a flametounge and its 28 for 10 mana in 1 turn

No offense but just cause u dont know how to combo cards doesn't mean ur right !


I forgot that one, and ill admit my mistake. However, while the damage potential is there, the bypass of taunt is not, so while it's still problematic, it's not as bad as rogues.

Besides, how many shamans do you see running Leeroy? Close to 0.
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Posts: 3


Leroy +2x rockbiter + windfury = 24 dmg 8 mana put in a flametounge and its 28 for 10 mana in 1 turn

No offense but just cause u dont know how to combo cards doesn't mean ur right !


I forgot that one, and ill admit my mistake. However, while the damage potential is there, the bypass of taunt is not, so while it's still problematic, it's not as bad as rogues.

Besides, how many shamans do you see running Leeroy? Close to 0.


actually saw strifecro get his !@# handed to him by a leroy shaman in legend , a rogue can have 2xsap and u can have 2x earth shocks that are even cheaper and can get 2 taunts down for 2 mana

i would agree that some classes can exploit leroy much more effective than others , but the problem is not in class specific cards but in leroy himself. This card is a must in all rush or miracle decks and that makes it op imo, increasing its cost should bring down the combo possibilities to a reasonable amount.
Edited by LESI on 2/4/2014 5:03 AM PST
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Posts: 41
Let's nerf all the good cards!
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Posts: 494
02/04/2014 03:53 AMPosted by Slai
Logi: you clearly can play miracle even against a deck with 4-5 taunts in deck.


^.
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Posts: 494
02/04/2014 04:46 AMPosted by LESI


I forgot that one, and ill admit my mistake. However, while the damage potential is there, the bypass of taunt is not, so while it's still problematic, it's not as bad as rogues.

Besides, how many shamans do you see running Leeroy? Close to 0.


actually saw strifecro get his !@# handed to him by a leroy shaman in legend , a rogue can have 2xsap and u can have 2x earth shocks that are even cheaper and can get 2 taunts down for 2 mana

i would agree that some classes can exploit leroy much more effective than others , but the problem is not in class specific cards but in leroy himself. This card is a must in all rush or miracle decks and that makes it op imo, increasing its cost should bring down the combo possibilities to a reasonable amount.


Sap is on a different level of Earth Shock. Cant really compare both :p.

Im all up for nerfing Leeroy instead of Step, and im glad we can agree on the point that it's slightly broken/op. Thanks for actually reading through the posts and posting constructive replies ;)
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Posts: 494
02/04/2014 05:53 AMPosted by Pepso
Let's nerf all the good cards!


How constructive. Scram.
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Posts: 562
you should have played a pool of 10-100 matches against that miracle deck to build some statistics about it.
it is not as effective as it seems. you need those cards to do that combo. at the right mana, because nothing is free. you know you face a miracle rogue? ok, u know at 7 mana he can 16 dmg you with best cards.(leeroy+shadow+leeory+cold). play around it.

- it's the worst type of deck type. inconsistent but when it works people feel cheated...it gives the impression of being powerful because it's flashy and bursty. People beat this deck and it just looks like u beat a bad rogue cuz they didn't have their combo ready and went to your face too fast.


^this

like every other games, you need to know your opponent to be prepared. but if u played against miracle for the first time, well...learn.

anectode time: played against a druid. i just continued to get wrong cards. ended like 28 - 0 for him with me suiciding on some of his taunt because yes.
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Posts: 14
Hi Bleed,

Before thinking about nerfing Leeroy we have to think of several factors:

1) Does the fact of playing Leeroy guaranties victory?

I personally seriously doubt that. It still needs combinations of SEVERAL cards to make a significant impact, weather in a Rogue Miracle or Shaman Rush deck.

2) In comparison to other cards with a similar cost does Leeroy gives a OP effect considering it is a Legendary.

Hard to say since we're talking about a combinations of cards. But honestly by himself Leeroy achieves the same (with actually less flexibility since Taunt hard counters him) than a Fireball. Not so hot for a Legendary. Plus it gives 2x1/1 to the opponent.

3) Does Leeroy have a hard counter?

Yes. A simple taunt creatures that inflicts a mere 2 (!) damage completely counters a Leeroy when he is cast. Even if he is buffed with two Cold blood/Rock Bitter + Windfury. So yes, Leeroy does have a hard counters and that includes most of the Hunter's secrets and some of the Mage and Paladin's secrets.

4) Does everyone use Leeroy in their deck?

No. Pre Nerf everyone had a Sylvanas. Post Nerf she is still present but much less. I don't really see the current meta being 'polluted' by a ridiculous quantity of Leeroy's as it used to be for Sylvanas.

5) Does increasing the cost of Leeroy makes it still viable.

Hard to say. 5 Mana for a 6/2 that gives 2x1/1 to the opponent is not so good.. let alone the cost of crafting such a card, we are talking about a legendary here so = expensive.

I think that calling for a Leeroy nerf is not very rational and a little out of place. Things might change in the future but right now it just punishes mainly the Miracle Rogue and Rush Shaman amongst others, two decks that are not particularly dominant in the current meta.

This post is just my humble opinion, I am not a great player nor pretend to be. This is just what I think.

Cheers
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Posts: 494
That's a good way to look at it. The card on itself as a standalone isnt Broken, it's the fact that you can bounce it repeatedly to deal insane damage that's the problem.

1) Leeroy itself doesnt guarantee victory, no. We can agree on this.

2) As a stanndalone card, he's nothing special, yeah. He's actually pretty meh.

3) While taunt does hardcounter Leeroy, sap hardcounters taunts. If you can get a Sunfury/Argus play up in time then yeah, i guess a rogue cant double sap it and the play's countered.

4) Agreed. Leeroy's hardly used by anyone outside Rush Shamans, Miracle Rogues, Rush Hunters, or just people who got him randomly and want to try it out. He's no Sylvannas by any means.

5) That's the thing. Since Leeroy is already meh on it's own, nerfing him based on shamans and rogues would make him a pretty trash card. So the only fix to this would be to nerf Shadowstep, but that card is absolutely fine, except when combined with Leeroy. We get to a dillema where you cant nerf a card that's fine, and if you nerf the other card it becomes useless.

Your post was well constructed and tought out, and does give me another prespective on this whole topic. As you said, time will tell.
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Posts: 2
Here's my favorite OTK video with this deck:

http://www.twitch.tv/massansc/c/3647706
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