Unleash the Hounds Combo - too easy, too eficient

Posts: 82
02/27/2014 12:27 PMPosted by Verdash
Keep in mind, I personally do think the entire combo package is slightly cheap (resource wise). Personally, I am completely behind Buzzard going 2/3 for 3M, or maybe Timber Wolf going 2/2 for 2M.


Thank you. This was my whole point. Maybe the buzzard needs to be raised? Maybe something else? But currently the synergy involved with this 2 mana card for just 2 or 3 more mana can give the hunter so much advantage. This is just my opinion and something that I have read from others as well...so I know I am not alone on this. I really don't care if anything changes but I will speak my opinion on a forum where Blizz asks for feedback.

I never once attacked you. I said your smelling something else...because I'm pretty sure that was a rude thing to say someone smells.... and that your failing to argue with yourself about comparison. First you compare, then you say you didn't compare, then you say you did.
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Posts: 82
02/27/2014 12:32 PMPosted by Verdash
Cost of what is low?

2 mana to deal 1 damage per enemy minion? Thats spot on with many cards out there (when you adjust for minor differences, i.e. cost/damage, include enemy hero or not, etc).

Or are you referring to the entire combo that UtH is only a part of?


The cost of UtH is too low at 2 mana in my opinion.
It does so much more than 1 damage for each enemy.
Each damage becomes its own card that stays on the board as a beast.
The hunter can buff beasts so easily that for 2 mana, rarley do you ever see UtH used where the hounds are 1/1's dealing just 1 damage and being killed off the board.

They are always accompanied by the card drawing of the vulture and the buffing with the timberwolf. All of these cards are so cheap. When 2 vultures are down the hunter can draw an insane amount of cards. This is the synergy I am talking about. On top of that, hunters spells become even more powerful moving up to 5 damage from 3 as well as other effects that require beasts.

How about the Hyena turning into an 8/5 after the hounds clear the entire board....on top of drawing all those cards....the UtH combo ability is not one that hunters overlook and that is why the card can't be treated simply as 1 damage for 1 each enemy. It's so much more then that.

So again...not just 1 damage for each minion. 1 Beast as well, which synergizes into....large card draw, large beast like hyena reaping the benefit of losing your hounds, or just simply taking up the entire board presence and buffing the hounds....at a cost of 2 mana....its cheap in my opinion...

BTW i didn't start this thread. I just stumbled on it after searching Google about UtH....was surprised someone had the same opinion I did and posted about it recently.
Edited by Infest on 2/27/2014 12:53 PM PST
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02/27/2014 12:35 PMPosted by Infest
because I'm pretty sure that was a rude thing to say someone smells

I never said they smelled, I said their comment smelled like an opinion.

02/27/2014 12:35 PMPosted by Infest
First you compare, then you say you didn't compare, then you say you did.

I wasn't comparing the cards in the manner you were implying. The cost/rarity of Flamestrike and Ragnaros had no bearing on the comparison to UtH I was making.

02/27/2014 12:44 PMPosted by Infest
The cost of UtH is too low at 2 mana in my opinion.
It does so much more than 1 damage for each enemy.
Each damage becomes its own card that stays on the board as a beast.
The hunter can buff beasts so easily that for 2 mana, rarley do you ever see UtH used where the hounds are 1/1's dealing just 1 damage and being killed off the board.

Onyxia summons up to 6 1/1 minions for the approximate equivalent "mana cost" of:
- Up to 15 damage or 14 healing
- Drawing a Dream card (re-occuring)
- +5 Spell Power
- Reducing turn time by 50% (to be fair...I think this is over-costed...)

UtH gains charge, and the Beast Tribe has synergy now (Dragons don't for now, but it is likely they will later based on some Blue talk), but it is dependent on the enemy board. That is a major consideration.

Also, the closest to a "vanilla" 8/8 (the base stat allotment for the big dragons) is a 7/7 for 7. At best, the dragon special effect is costing 1-2 mana.

So, UtH is approximately equivalent to the special effect of some of the big dragons, one of which is a very similar ability.

So, UtH itself is actually balanced pretty well. Assuming the combo package does need an increase, it would be better to see if maybe one of the combo pieces is a little on the weak end, outside of combos. Upping the cost for a little more effect on one of those raises the combo cost, and gives a weak card a slight boost, rather than nerfing a balanced card.

Hence, Buzzard or TW as a possibility.
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Posts: 20,464
How about the Hyena turning into an 8/5 after the hounds clear the entire board....on top of drawing all those cards....the UtH combo ability is not one that hunters overlook and that is why the card can't be treated simply as 1 damage for 1 each enemy. It's so much more then that.

Either you have a turn to deal with it, or they turn 9 Rhino+Hyena+UtH, which is a significant investment for a pump effect.

That is all UtH is, all of these other effects you are referring to are at least partially (if not fully) due to the other card itself (KC+UtH...really, there are easier ways to get an extra 2 damage from a spell).
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Posts: 82
because I'm pretty sure that was a rude thing to say someone smells

I never said they smelled, I said their comment smelled like an opinion.

First you compare, then you say you didn't compare, then you say you did.

I wasn't comparing the cards in the manner you were implying. The cost/rarity of Flamestrike and Ragnaros had no bearing on the comparison to UtH I was making.

The cost of UtH is too low at 2 mana in my opinion.
It does so much more than 1 damage for each enemy.
Each damage becomes its own card that stays on the board as a beast.
The hunter can buff beasts so easily that for 2 mana, rarley do you ever see UtH used where the hounds are 1/1's dealing just 1 damage and being killed off the board.

Onyxia summons up to 6 1/1 minions for the approximate equivalent "mana cost" of:
- Up to 15 damage or 14 healing
- Drawing a Dream card (re-occuring)
- +5 Spell Power
- Reducing turn time by 50% (to be fair...I think this is over-costed...)

UtH gains charge, and the Beast Tribe has synergy now (Dragons don't for now, but it is likely they will later based on some Blue talk), but it is dependent on the enemy board. That is a major consideration.

Also, the closest to a "vanilla" 8/8 (the base stat allotment for the big dragons) is a 7/7 for 7. At best, the dragon special effect is costing 1-2 mana.

So, UtH is approximately equivalent to the special effect of some of the big dragons, one of which is a very similar ability.

So, UtH itself is actually balanced pretty well. Assuming the combo package does need an increase, it would be better to see if maybe one of the combo pieces is a little on the weak end, outside of combos. Upping the cost for a little more effect on one of those raises the combo cost, and gives a weak card a slight boost, rather than nerfing a balanced card.

Hence, Buzzard or TW as a possibility.


You do see that you are comparing UtH to each of the legendary dragons here......
The cards in comparison you have brought up now include Flamestrike, Ragnaros, and each of the legendary dragons....in comparison to a 2 mana card which you can have 2 of in your deck.
All of those cards have 7+ mana costs.
Edited by Infest on 2/27/2014 1:26 PM PST
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02/27/2014 01:19 PMPosted by Infest
You do see that you are comparing UtH to each of the legendary dragons here......

You missed the point, disregard the 8/8 body, I was only comparing UtH to the special effect the dragons do.

If UtH had an 8/8 body attached to it, it would be an Onyxia clone, trading a guaranteed 6 1/1 minions (then reduced by cap) for a 1/1 Charge minion per enemy minion.

UtH does not have a 8/8 body attached to it.

Seriously, I am not hiding the point, I am very clear about what I am comparing. you are focused on taking the cards in question as a package, I am comparing elements.
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Posts: 82
The "effect" of each of those dragons is legendary and why you can only have 1 in your deck, as well as have to have the good fortune of attaining one of these legendary cards. Also, you must wait until around turn 7 or 8 to play this ability/card.

Keep that in mind when your doing your analyzing of the abillity of UtH which any hunter worth his salt will have 2 of in his deck.

Also, when used with even cheaper cards (TW, Hyena, Vulture) the effect is much more powerful than Onyxia on turn 8 or 9. The Onyxia 1/1's don't have charge either.....Charge is incredibly powerful...
Edited by Infest on 2/27/2014 1:31 PM PST
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Posts: 20,464
The "effect" of each of those dragons is legendary and why you can only have 1 in your deck, as well as have to have the good fortune of attaining one of these legendary cards. Also, you must wait until around turn 7 or 8 to play this ability/card.

Rarity doesn't break a budget, it just grants "more complex" effects, or efficient combinations of more basic effects.

For a budget based analysis, comparing UtH to Onyxia's special is probably the best you will find out there, and to get the "cost" of the whelps, you need to compare to the other 4 (not DW, his body makes it more complicated a comparison than it is worth).

And you have to wait until turn 7/8 because of the 8/8 body, first and foremost. They can get crazy with effects because of the high cost true, but again, the effects do not break a budget just because they are legendary, or expensive.

02/27/2014 01:26 PMPosted by Infest
Also, when used with even cheaper cards (TW, Hyena, Vulture) the effect is much more powerful than Onyxia on turn 8 or 9.

Because Ony is a War Golem + Bananas + Quasi-UtH, it is a combo in of itself. Significant reduction in card cost, balanced by an "inflexible" combo.
Edited by Verdash on 2/27/2014 1:35 PM PST
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Posts: 155
The only problem I see with the card is that, with the exception of 1 out of 9 classes counterspell, you can do nothing to prevent the impact of the card wether you are anticipating it or not.

Yes you can run alot of taunts, but as hunter decks are the only type of decks that force that response I think I have more fun with the game if I just concede to every hunter and proceed to the next game, when I am playing a non taunt based control deck (like a frost mage for example).

The largest impact of this synergy is the charge. You can have all the damn hound synergy that you want and add a 3/3 pack leader to boot for all I care if you remove charge, so atleast you are allowed options to respond or the hunter is forced to play the damn hound behing a taunt of freezing trap or whatever he thinks is dandy.

I rather face a deck with 2 rags then 2 unleash the hounds. I can sheep/frog/assisanate/shadow worth death against rags, I can do nothing but try and pick up the pieces against the hounds.
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Posts: 82
I don't know what you mean by "Break a budget" or really what you are talking about at all when talking about budget.

My argument is that Unleash the Hounds, at 2 mana, is a very low cost card with some very amazing abilitys when used right. Ranging from, board clear, total board presence, insane card draw, buffing creatures like the hyena to an 8/5, and even more...All for 2 mana....and sometimes all of those at once!

Your comparisons use legendary cards which are difficult to attain in Hearthstone. They are more rare than rare or epic cards and can only be used once in a deck. On top of that, they can not be used until late game because of the high mana cost. And again, Onyxia's welps don't gain charge on top of being beasts which are easily buffable. They are dragons and I don't really know of any dragon buffing cards for 1 mana.

Unleash of the Hounds is very easy to attain, can be thrown in the deck twice. If its going to be so powerful for hunter, 2 mana seems insanely cost efficient to always pull off these combos early in the game on the same turn.

Also again, Onyxia's welps do not have charge, don't come out until turn 8+, and it is a legendary card which can only be used once if that player was so lucky to draw an Onyxia out of a pack or craft one for the price of 1600 dust.

Imagine this was World Of Warcraft for a second....Do you remember raiding Onyxia in the early days? Onyxia required your 40 man to be really on point when it was first released back in the vanilla days. Comparing a dragon like Onyxia to a 2 mana hunter ability just seems....well..wrong. Onyxia should be much more fearful than a hunters 2 mana spell. But it's not...i'd much rather see Onyxia in the hunters deck than UtH.

I'm gonna be done posting here but just wanted to make my argument that UtH seems to be too low at 2 mana. Maybe 3 mana? Maybe not... I just know I'm not the only one who thinks UtH has powerful ability with only 2 mana cost.
Edited by Infest on 2/27/2014 1:59 PM PST
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02/27/2014 01:51 PMPosted by Infest
don't know what you mean by "Break a budget" or really what you are talking about at all when talking about budget.

The effect of the card is limited by its mana cost, and any limitations/drawbacks. Flame Imp & Succubus are stronger for their cost, because of their detrimental Battle-cry effects, for example.

Take Ony, she has 2 parts to her. 1, she is an 8/8. That takes up part of the budget. 2, she spawns up to 6 1/1 Dragons. That takes up the rest (slight nod to Dragon Tribe on Ony herself, which I don't think affects the budget too much).

I was comparing UtH to the part that is spent on the whelps. By comparing War Golem to Ony, you can see that the whelps are ~2 mana worth of the budget (approximately, because War Golem is actually under budget, but that is a little more detailed).

So, 2 mana for 6, 1/1, non charge minions. vs 2 mana for a # of 1/1 charge minions based on the enemy board. UtH can have stronger minions (1/1 charge vs 1/1, even though both have a tribe) because it is limited by the opponents board in addition to your own.

My argument is that Charge of the Hounds, at 2 mana, is a very low cost card with some very amazing abilitys when used right. Ranging from, board clear, total board presence, insane card draw, buffing creatures like the hyena to an 8/5, and even more...All for 2 mana.

Again, you are discounting the other cards used to achieve that goal, so it isn't just 2 mana.

Your comparisons use legendary cards which are difficult to attain in Hearthstone. They are more rare than rare or epic cards and can only be used once in a deck. On top of that, they can not be used until late game because of the high mana cost.

You have that druid card that summons 3 2/2s with Charge as a non legendary comparison. It isn't perfect, since they are 2/2s, die at the end of the turn, and are a fixed number, but it is close as well. By themselves, it is 6 damage for 6 mana. UtH is 0-7 damage for 2 mana.

Also again, Onyxia's welps do not have charged, don't come out until turn 8+, and it is a legendary card which can only be used once if that player was so lucky to draw an Onyxia out of a pack or craft one for the price of 1600 dust.

Again, the point was to compare the cost of the effect. Consider this, how much would you budget an ability that summoned 6 1/1 minions, no charge? I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up around 2 mana. It might be 3, but then again, it is a fixed number of minions, rather than based on the board, which is a significant factor.

'm gonna be done posting here but just wanted to make my argument that UtH seems to be too low at 2 mana. Maybe 3 mana? Maybe not... I just know I'm not the only one who thinks UtH has powerful ability with only 2 mana cost.

And those same people are making the same mistake. It isn't that UtH is too good for 2 mana, it is the entire combo package is maybe too good for 4+ mana (depending on the combo package).

Since most of the combos are easily handled (or compare well to other classes who can do similar combos) out side of Buzzard, he is probably the best place to start looking.

02/27/2014 01:51 PMPosted by Infest
They are dragons and I don't really know of any dragon buffing cards for 1 mana.

Blizz has already stated they have every intention of fleshing out Tribe mechanics, including adding new tribes, as well as giving more tribe synergy to pre-existing ones.
Edited by Verdash on 2/27/2014 2:06 PM PST
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Posts: 82
02/27/2014 02:05 PMPosted by Verdash
You have that druid card that summons 3 2/2s with Charge as a non legendary comparison. It isn't perfect, since they are 2/2s, die at the end of the turn, and are a fixed number, but it is close as well. By themselves, it is 6 damage for 6 mana. UtH is 0-7 damage for 2 mana.


Force of Nature is an epic card that took me over $300 of packs to get 1 of. And it has a mana cost of 6...Again this card is EPIC and supposedly according to the rarity system...more rare. UtH is common.....common really? Just saying...
Edited by Infest on 2/27/2014 2:34 PM PST
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Posts: 20,464
You have that druid card that summons 3 2/2s with Charge as a non legendary comparison. It isn't perfect, since they are 2/2s, die at the end of the turn, and are a fixed number, but it is close as well. By themselves, it is 6 damage for 6 mana. UtH is 0-7 damage for 2 mana.


Force of Nature is an epic card that took me over $300 of packs to get 1 of. And it has a mana cost of 6...Again this card is EPIC and supposedly according to the rarity system...more rare. UtH is common.....common really? Just saying...

Rarity has no impact on the effect a card can do for its cost. Rarity generally allows you to have "more complicated" effects, that is about it.

And 3 charge minions regardless of the enemy board is much more "flexible" than a charge minion for every enemy minion. FoN earns its rarity by not being saddled to the enemy board.

Outside of Legendaries (which generally have unique abilities that don't compare well to non-legendaries for purposes of determining "how much of the budget" it was worth), card effects compare well to other cards with similar effects, regardless of rarity.

Now, mana costs generally skews the picture, as you rarely have similar effects with the same costs on multiple cards. But, usually, the higher mana cost is justified by a higher target pool, bigger effect, or it is strapped to a bigger minion (or a minion vs a spell).
Edited by Verdash on 2/27/2014 2:39 PM PST
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Posts: 82
Just for giggles, can you compare the synergy UtH has to any other class common card?
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02/27/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Infest
Just for giggles, can you compare the synergy UtH has to any other class common card?


UtH+Hyena
vs
Whirlwind+Frothing Berserker

In this case, the "pump" card is rare for warriors, while the Hyena is a common.

But that isn't the card that is triggering the pump effect, that would be Whirlwind, which is a common card, compared to UtH which triggers the pump for Hyena. The both also deal 1 damage to all enemy minions (Whirlwind also hits your minions, but that is because it is cheaper, and in this comparison, works in favor as you can get up to 14 pumps, instead of only 7....granted...you generally won't see much more than 6 for Zerker, and 2-4 for Hyena).

We can add in Battle Rage vs Buzzard, Rhino vs Warsong Commander, and Timber Wolf...well...warriors don't have a +SP minion, but Kobold Geomancer fits in fairly well.
Edited by Verdash on 2/27/2014 3:05 PM PST
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Posts: 82
Verdash, add me when you log into Hearthstone.
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Posts: 93
UTH in its current state is undercosted. And arguing about the card in a vacuum (looking at you @Versash), is borderline retarded in a TCG

If you are arguing about a card, you also have to argue about its potential synergies, and when you look at it this way, its UTH causing problems with everything else.

There is literally no reason to not have UTH in a deck, and that is already giving enough indication that its a problem
Edited by deteego on 2/27/2014 3:31 PM PST
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02/27/2014 03:30 PMPosted by deteego
UTH in its current state is undercosted. And arguing about the card in a vacuum (looking at you @Versash), is borderline retarded in a TCG

How is me "comparing cards in a vacuum" any different than people calling out the card as OP, by comparing it in a vacuum?

Also, I am not saying the card is OP or UP, I am saying the card is in line with other cards that do a similar effect, and the cost of the effect is similar when you compare it to other similar effects. That is one way (it happens to be the most efficient way incidentally) to balance a card.

And even still, I flat out said that the combo is potentially cheap (resource wise), but pointed out how upping UtH's cost isn't the best way to make the combo cost a bit more. It is properly costed at 2 mana. The issue is the overall combo.

Buzzard, and even TW, could stand to have a few more stat points, and having them cost a bit extra mana in exchange nerfs the combos, and makes them a little more playable outside of combos.

02/27/2014 03:30 PMPosted by deteego
If you are arguing about a card, you also have to argue about its potential synergies, and when you look at it this way, its UTH causing problems with everything else.

I never claimed that the potential synergies were not a problem, I simply said that UtH itself is fine as is. Many times I have said the combos might be too cheap (again, resource) wise for their effects.

02/27/2014 03:30 PMPosted by deteego
There is literally no reason to not have UTH in a deck, and that is already giving enough indication that its a problem

Control decks that, by design, keep the minion limit low? I mean, UtH thrives on multiple minions, and if your deck strategy is to minimize their minions, you don't really get much out of it.
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Posts: 734
Fairly certain Explosive Trap is 2 mana for 2 damage per enemy. Make ET a basic and UTH a common.

Also, hounds don't need charge to do 1 damage each. UTH would still function as a sweeping effect, just slower. But, I digress. Here's some card change ideas:

UTH 2 mana
Target unit gains Taunt.
For each enemy minion summon a 1/1 Hound

with additional compensation

Tundra Rhino 4 mana
Beasts have charge
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Posts: 397
Wait, didn't Blizzard once said on one of the interviews that they will never do another nerf/changes to current cards anymore because they're focusing on rebalancing using the new upcoming cards next expansion? if that was the case, why are people still crying for nerfs that's never going to happen?
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